MAJOR PROBLEM Kerry Group Old Shares

kerry made

I think that farmers have a realistic argument in saying to Revenue that the money that was paid for the patronage shares is the only money they are guaranteed to get back. While you hold them they can be taken from you by the co-op at face value, and even if you wanted to sell the Board may not approve. Without such approval - no sale.

To compound it then Revenue had to come up with figures that, by and large, they pulled from some part of their anatomy.

And then there is the fact that farmers would end up paying the 33% capital gains tax which is harder to avoid. It is quite possible that Revenue end up collecting less money!

BannerBarry

Did anyone read the article in rhe IFJ this week on the co op share issue?
There looks to be more facts wrong than right.

The IFJ says; "In 2011, only five of the 13,000 Kerry Co-Op shareholders traded shares according to Revenue records."

Surely this had to be completely wrong?

fepper

Is that the coop shares or plc shares?if coop looks normal enough trading

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

Is that the coop shares or plc shares?if coop looks normal enough trading

It's Co-Op shares they were referring to.
I thought there would be at least 10,000 shares traded each year.
I probably know 2 of the 5 people that sold shares in 2011!
Seems a good bit off to me. Surely there is hundreds that sold shares in Co. Kerry alone each year?

fepper

BannerBarry wrote: »

It's Co-Op shares they were referring to.
I thought there would be at least 10,000 shares traded each year.
I probably know 2 of the 5 people that sold shares in 2011!
Seems a good bit off to me. Surely there is hundreds that sold shares in Co. Kerry alone each year?

Wasn't there a conversion in 2011 maybe that why trading was low

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

Wasn't there a conversion in 2011 maybe that why trading was low

There was a conversion but I still think the number is very low.
Kerry2016 bought more than 5 sets of shares in 2011 I bet.

fepper

BannerBarry wrote: »

There was a conversion but I still think the number is very low.
Kerry2016 bought more than 5 sets of shares in 2011 I bet.

Maybe that's all he could get then cos he did open another thread on here looking for more coop shares to satisfy his insatiable appetite for them

BannerBarry

Kerry Groups argument on the shares being treated as Income tax would mean suppliers are entitled to vat at 5.2% is very clever.
Quick calculations would suggest this is 2.5m less the Revenue would get from their changed argument on the shares.
Would they ever back down now if they are not getting a big haul from this?

kerry cow

Any update or whispers as to where all this share revenue and conversion is going ?

BannerBarry

A good article in the Journal today in letter to the editor on Kerry Co Op shares.
The writer has full faith in our new chairman to convert all the shares.
He mentions the revenue are jumping over themselves to give back the Apple tax and are pushing on the farmers for this new tax they want.
The co op shares are worhtless in the banks eyes which I knew first hand myself and now fellas won't be able to use them as security for a loan to pay the tax because they are so valuable... What a contradiction.

Wishful thinking on conversion maybe but nevertheless good well written article.

fepper

The banks always preferred the plc shares anyway as part of any security on any loan ,much more faster liquidity for them if things go belly up

kerry cow

Would it be true to make the case that it was possible that it was dry co op holders that sold some grey shares and not active producers .

BannerBarry

kerry cow wrote: »

Would it be true to make the case that it was possible that it was dry co op holders that sold some grey shares and not active producers .

I doubt that would wash for the Revenue. The revenue have got all transfers of Co op shares for those years.
I know 2 A Co op shareholders who sold in those year's and they surely know from the tax returns that they are farmer's and see from the Share Certificate that they are A suppliers.

fepper

In a good lot of cases it was active milk suppliers buying on grey share market so they also had their value on them

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

In a good lot of cases it was active milk suppliers buying on grey share market so they also had their value on them

Tbh id say the majority of active and retired farmers that supplied to Kerry Group have no pension except the Kerry Co-op and Group shares. Many would have bought a few co op shares maybe when times were good cash flow wise as a pension... its a disgrace how the revenue want this to end with jhuge tax bills..

kerry cow

Was talking to a accountant today who feels the farmer will lose the case but there maybe a bit of movement on the value attached

BannerBarry

kerry cow wrote: »

Was talking to a accountant today who feels the farmer will lose the case but there maybe a bit of movement on the value attached

They will reduce the 65 75 and 90 value is it?
That makes complete sense. That base price the revenue had looked way too high give the 200K patronage shares each year would flood the small grey market and hence the prices made would be too high for 200K shares.

fepper

BannerBarry wrote: »

They will reduce the 65 75 and 90 value is it?
That makes complete sense. That base price the revenue had looked way too high give the 200K patronage shares each year would flood the small grey market and hence the prices made would be too high for 200K shares.

Are they also basing those base valuations on Kerry coops percentage values in Kerry group as well?

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

Are they also basing those base valuations on Kerry coops percentage values in Kerry group as well?

I doubt it. The see through value of the co op shares in 2011 would be 6.66 * 2011s Group share price.
The value of the co op shares after the issue of the 600K patronage shares in those years dropped to 6.17 or so for 2013 and afterwards.

I think the grey market price has typically been 40%-50 of the see through value of the co op shares.

Maybe some clever clogs had figured out the Revenue would be looking for 52% Income tax on any converted shares causing the Grey market to price the co op shares at those 40-50% of see through values?

Pasta411

Whatever the outcome is with the tax problem Kerry have with revenue over the Patron Shares where do ye all see things going then? I'll be interested to see what excuse the Co Op board have for keeping themselves in place then… are they going to just keep up their mantra that we need them there so we can get paid 25c/L for our milk? The way that the co op was set up it was always intended for the shares to all be spun out, that's why the co op never held onto a stake in the milk processing plants or anything like how Glanbia did, I've heard lots of people comparing Kerry and Glanbia but it's chalk and cheese

CiarraiAbu2

Brian Leslie has been appointed new chief executive taking over from Stan McCarthy, Brian runs Primafinance in Killarney.

BannerBarry

CiarraiAbu2 wrote: »

Brian Leslie has been appointed new chief executive taking over from Stan McCarthy, Brian runs Primafinance in Killarney.

I didn't know Kerry co-op were searching for a Chief Executive.

The position was publicly advertised to get the most suitable candidate of course I presume?

I would have thought an established Accountant in Kerry would be the best fit for this position considering the main risks for the co op (per the accounts) relate to taxation issues.

Does the new Chief Executive have such experience does anyone know?

Pasta411

What are people's thoughts on the article in the farmers journal today calling for the Co Op to buy the milk factories back off Kerry Group?

CiarraiAbu2

Who wrote the article, was it one of their own journalists or one of the board members.

kerry cow

Haven t seen it but is it a editorial or is it another anonymous letter from a clown .
Banners you should print one on behalf of the b holders due their dosh .

Pasta411

kerry cow wrote: »

Haven t seen it but is it a editorial or is it another anonymous letter from a clown .
Banners you should print one on behalf of the b holders due their dosh .

I think one of the journalists for the farmers journal wrote it, they talked about how Stan McCarthy had succeeded Dennis brosnan so it looks like they hadn't much of an idea about what they were talking about


To all the other people who read this forum, do any of ye know any co op shareholders who want there shares used to start off a new co op? I don't know 1 person that's ever said it yet the farmers journal said that it's much talked about

kerry cow

I think it is time the people who want a conversion better start speaking up before the idologly of the 70's want to become reborn again to reinvent themselves as the new messiah.

Pasta411

kerry cow wrote: »

I think it is time the people who want a conversion better start speaking up before the idologly of the 70's want to become reborn again to reinvent themselves as the new messiah.

Our new chairman is 65 years old, was selling out his cows a few years ago and changed his mind, he'd actually sold his heifers already and he's no one to take over his farm never mind go milking cows there, he's about 1,000 co op shares himself so he'd want to be fairly off his head to not do a conversion, he's the last man on this planet who should want to use all our shares to start off a new co op… half of Kerry groups revenue comes from consumer foods, how would they supposedly make that food without factories or milk, the whole idea of forming a new co op is completely mental

BannerBarry

kerry cow wrote: »

I think it is time the people who want a conversion better start speaking up before the idologly of the 70's want to become reborn again to reinvent themselves as the new messiah.

100%. Kerry co op shareholders A, B & C need to stand up and remind the co op board they represent us shareholders. 90% of A's and B's voted to convert 25% of the shares in 2011.
In worse times in 2017 this vote would also pass should the Directors listen to what the members are saying.
The poor C's have no voice despite being the largest shareholder group... Selective Co op ethos I say.

The co op rules were drafted before many of us were born. They haven't changed much and are surplus and outdated now.
The C's need a voice and the shares converted.
The C's and B's alone have no interest in Milk processing plants in Listowel and Cork.
Hopefully the New CEO will hear this loud and clear.... If not the communication forum should be in the "Co-Operative" for us to be able to enlighten him of what the majority want.

Pasta411

I often hear that young farmers are against converting all the shares, is this true? I don't know what they think they can achieve by stopping the shares being converted. They're simpletons if they think there's any chance of more patron shares getting handed out, that ship has well and truly sailed!