MAJOR PROBLEM Kerry Group Old Shares

BannerBarry

Pasta411 wrote: »

I often hear that young farmers are against converting all the shares, is this true? I don't know what they think they can achieve by stopping the shares being converted. They're simpletons if they think there's any chance of more patron shares getting handed out, that ship has well and truly sailed!

Because of the swing to B and C shareholding it means that bygone days where the A Suppliers were the majority shareholders there may have been a more credible reason to issue Patronage shares.

Now the B's and C's are majority shareholders and it is not in the interest of the majority to see their shareholding diluted further.
With company law changes there would be a legal challenge should the Board directors now favor a minority group against the interests of the majority

cute geoge

What ever chance young farmers of receiving a fair milk price ,if all the co op shares are converted ,stan need only pay the worst price in ireland .In the last conversion stan swayed alot of undecided voters inside in the brandon hotel with his assurance of kerry paying leading milk price and we saw how this turned out last year .Stan resigned from kerry co op with kerry paying the lowest price in the country for most of the summer!!!
The first thing that will have to be achieved with the arbitration is that kerry farmers will be convinced that kerry will pay the leading milk price

Pasta411

cute geoge wrote: »

What ever chance young farmers of receiving a fair milk price ,if all the co op shares are converted ,stan need only pay the worst price in ireland .In the last conversion stan swayed alot of undecided voters inside in the brandon hotel with his assurance of kerry paying leading milk price and we saw how this turned out last year .Stan resigned from kerry co op with kerry paying the lowest price in the country for most of the summer!!!
The first thing that will have to be achieved with the arbitration is that kerry farmers will be convinced that kerry will pay the leading milk price

The B shareholders are allowed vote on the future conversions and anyone who thinks that the co op have any impact on milk prices must live on a different planet to the rest of us… back in '86 when Kerry went plc from then on they were legally obliged to not pay above the odds for milk

And I don't pay much attention to other co ops milk prices but Dairygold were paying a far worse price, glanbia were just paying a cent more than us and they were selling the farmers shares to do it, their base price was actually much lower than the price Kerry were paying

Brandnew404

cute geoge wrote: »

What ever chance young farmers of receiving a fair milk price ,if all the co op shares are converted ,stan need only pay the worst price in ireland .In the last conversion stan swayed alot of undecided voters inside in the brandon hotel with his assurance of kerry paying leading milk price and we saw how this turned out last year .Stan resigned from kerry co op with kerry paying the lowest price in the country for most of the summer!!!
The first thing that will have to be achieved with the arbitration is that kerry farmers will be convinced that kerry will pay the leading milk price

Any word on what's going on with the milk price arbitration case? Kerry were bottom of the milk price league in yesterday's journal

BannerBarry

Brandnew404 wrote: »

Any word on what's going on with the milk price arbitration case? Kerry were bottom of the milk price league in yesterday's journal

I haven't heard anything on that dilemma in months. I'd say it has been side staged by the Patronage tax Revenue saga.

With milk prices going back up in see all the co ops are rushing off to lock in fixed pricing now. That's a great sign they expect prices to go much higher.
Have Kerry Group offered any fixed price for a portion of milk yet or is the existing fixed price scheme in place?

Brandnew404

BannerBarry wrote: »

I haven't heard anything on that dilemma in months. I'd say it has been side staged by the Patronage tax Revenue saga.

With milk prices going back up in see all the co ops are rushing off to lock in fixed pricing now. That's a great sign they expect prices to go much higher.
Have Kerry Group offered any fixed price for a portion of milk yet or is the existing fixed price scheme in place?

No Kerry haven't offered any fix price yet, the fixed prices being offered by the other co ops are fairly poor though, the offers are at around 30c/L and only for 10% of the milk with one co op and 20% of the milk with the other co op

BannerBarry

There's a feeling that the revenue are claiming the Co Op shares are now Income Tax now so they can get some money from the co op shareholders because their CGT take is not as high as was forecast.

The reason for the lower CGT relates to the Milk Quota losses that are offsetting the share gains made by shareholders who sold shares.
As a result they did not have to pay any CGT.

A few years ago they left property hedge funds, mainly international ones, have the Commercial property in the country and if they held the property for 7 years they would pay no cgt.
Would they do the same for the Co op shareholders that have shares for 7 years or more :-)

fepper

BannerBarry wrote: »

There's a feeling that the revenue are claiming the Co Op shares are now Income Tax now so they can get some money from the co op shareholders because their CGT take is not as high as was forecast.

The reason for the lower CGT relates to the Milk Quota losses that are offsetting the share gains made by shareholders who sold shares.
As a result they did not have to pay any CGT.

A few years ago they left property hedge funds, mainly international ones, have the Commercial property in the country and if they held the property for 7 years they would pay no cgt.
Would they do the same for the Co op shareholders that have shares for 7 years or more :-)

But the milk quota tax relief offset will eventually be used up and then you'll be caught for full CGT again if you want or have to sell more shares,so loss to revenue is temporary so I'd say coop shares purchased from coop before 2011 will keep their value of €1.25 purchase price also all dividends are liable to tax so you'll be squeezed from both sides!!

BannerBarry

100% correct Fepper. They will get their blood eventually.
In fact if they dropped their change of tact on these shares the directors may do a conversion for us and the Revenue get their 33% cgt.
Last conversion was 2013 and prior was 2011.... we are a few years overdue an exchange at this stage so the Revenue are causing this delay one would think.

kerry cow

Why would the revenue issue have any bearing on a conversion , that's a individual tax issue and shouldn't effect how shares are converted .

fepper

kerry cow wrote: »

Why would the revenue issue have any bearing on a conversion , that's a individual tax issue and shouldn't effect how shares are converted .

701 for a start, thats a revenue timebomb but maybe we should take the tax hit if all shares converted and at least whats left is ours to do what we want with it as CGT would have to be paid at some stage in its lifetime

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

701 for a start, thats a revenue timebomb but maybe we should take the tax hit if all shares converted and at least whats left is ours to do what we want with it as CGT would have to be paid at some stage in its lifetime

Other companies are being taken over every week in Ireland and the shareholders pay cgt on the proceeds they get from the takeover.
See Fyffes shares currently as an example.. €2.24 offer in cash I believe.
The Fyffes shareholders will correctly pay cgt on the windfall they get less te cost they bought the shares at.

Why should the Kerry Co op be treated any differently than this I say?
If a US Hedge fund comes in an gobbles us up they'll fall all over themselves for them and allow the coop shares be treated as cgt then I would think. In fact they'll allow the US Hedge funds some unknown Section XYZ exemption so they'd pay no tax whatsoever on the Kerry Group €14 million dividend they would get also I bet.

fepper

Ah god Barry id hate those kind of vulture funds that your on about being involved here and hopefully the current shareholders will share the dividends for a long time to come

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

Ah god Barry id hate those kind of vulture funds that your on about being involved here and hopefully the current shareholders will share the dividends for a long time to come

Exactly. My only point is that should the co op be taken over there could be no tax issues I would think but for conversions there's is a big risk there would be tax issues.
Crazy stuff I know.

The solution is in the Revenue’s hands and of they back off and allow conversions happen as have historically happened they get their CGT when shareholders sell the Group shares.

Why let the vulture funds have the fat on the hard work and vision of Kerry over the last 30 years.

Yurt123

** will everyone who reads this thread please post their opinion on what they think should happen to the remaining Kerry co op shares

It's 4 years and counting since we got the last conversion

There's 28 board members and they're making no attempt to represent the shareholders, there's ****ing nothing out of farming and those fat cats on the board are only giving us the middle finger

moll3

convert ASAP:mad:

BannerBarry

moll3 wrote: »

convert ASAP:mad:

Convert 100% before the summer. We needed this last year. PLEASE PLEASE KERRY CO OP DIRECTORS DON'T MAKE US WAIT ANY LONGER FOR THIS.

fepper

BannerBarry wrote: »

Convert 100% before the summer. We needed this last year. PLEASE PLEASE KERRY CO OP DIRECTORS DON'T MAKE US WAIT ANY LONGER FOR THIS.

Barry,the PLEASE PLEASE wont work with this board,that statement is like it came from a scene from dickens OLIVER when the young lad asked for more!!

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

Barry,the PLEASE PLEASE wont work with this board,that statement is like it came from a scene from dickens OLIVER when the young lad asked for more!!

Ha.. I think you are right. I'm getting desperate now at this stage.
We will have to try something as the Directors do not appear to be listening to what we are saying and what the majority of shareholders want.
I appreciate there are tax issues that slowed the conversion process down but are these a hindrance or a godsend in the eyes of the board and the New CEO me wonders?

Yurt123

The Co Op shares are absolutely worthless with the way things are shaping up

The people on the board should be ****ing ashamed of themselves, people are genuinely in need of that money

fepper

That's a good assessment there Barry,it turning out like the Gardaí scandal now with the officers at the top closing ranks ,maybe another tribunal of enquiry for Kerry coop board actions should be put in motion or a independent review of it operation

Yurt123

Our current chairman said that all the co op shares will be converted eventually… the key word there is eventually though, people are sick of their ****, it's our ****ing money

fepper

Yurt123 wrote: »

The Co Op shares are absolutely worthless with the way things are shaping up

The people on the board should be ****ing ashamed of themselves, people are genuinely in need of that money

If they were exchanged for 6.12 plc shares that would make them valuable again

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

That's a good assessment there Barry,it turning out like the Gardaí scandal now with the officers at the top closing ranks ,maybe another tribunal of enquiry for Kerry coop board actions should be put in motion or a independent review of it operation

Don't mention Tribunal or Review etc to our 28 Apostles.... they'll drag things on for another 4 or 5 years with them great "Jobs for the boys" words...... remember the Strategic Review that hasn't ended 4 years later... its cost us hundreds of thousands already and only the 28 have seen it...

Yurt123

What's the route of legal action we can take against them? They're not actions in the interests of any of the shareholders, A, B, C shareholders are all sick of them

Wait until it unravels what happens on the trips paid for with our share dividends, they're laughing at us now but we'll have the last laugh

BannerBarry

Yurt123 wrote: »

What's the route of legal action we can take against them? They're not actions in the interests of any of the shareholders, A, B, C shareholders are all sick of them

Wait until it unravels what happens on the trips paid for with our share dividends, they're laughing at us now but we'll have the last laugh

If it can be shown that the Directors are not acting in the best interests of the majority of the shareholders (A B and C) then they can be prosecuted.

Trips to Amsterdam of the Advisory committee and Directors costing hundreds of thousands of Co op money is not my definition of acting in the best interests of the majority.

I believe they are personally liable for any wrongdoings or harm caused.

As all the B's and C's want the shares converted, and they are the majority, then there could be a case against the Directors for not acting in our interests.

The directors can hide behind some old co op rules where they are to promote the dairy sector..... I'm not sure what milk they offloaded (At our cost) while in Amsterdam.......

fepper

BannerBarry wrote: »

If it can be shown that the Directors are not acting in the best interests of the majority of the shareholders (A B and C) then they can be prosecuted.

Trips to Amsterdam of the Advisory committee and Directors costing hundreds of thousands of Co op money is not my definition of acting in the best interests of the majority.

I believe they are personally liable for any wrongdoings or harm caused.

As all the B's and C's want the shares converted, and they are the majority, then there could be a case against the Directors for not acting in our interests.

The directors can hide behind some old co op rules where they are to promote the dairy sector..... I'm not sure what milk they offloaded (At our cost) while in Amsterdam.......

Well said and I'm sure any frustrations they had going over with the leading milk price negotiations were made easier by all that window shopping which I'm sure blew their mind away

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

Well said and I'm sure any frustrations they had going over with the leading milk price negotiations were made easier by all that window shopping which I'm sure blew their mind away

On the Law side I read where the spirit of the actions of the Management ( co op board ) is now as important as the letter of the law.... ie the Co op can blow shareholder money in a manner that they feel fit and find rules like it's in the promotion of dairying, innovation in dairying etc etc.
With the Directors now knowing that the A's are a minority then the spirit of this type of expenditure is not in the interests of the majority.

Co op Directors of our investment holding company are threading on thin ice going forward and can be prosecuted for Amsterdam trips etc I believe.... badly needed changes to this Cronyism attitude

fepper

So would a government agency look into this arrangement if a complaint was lodged and what agency would it be?

BannerBarry

fepper wrote: »

So would a government agency look into this arrangement if a complaint was lodged and what agency would it be?

Great question. None that I am aware of.
I'd say the only route is the Court route for this.

One would hope the new CEO and the attention the co op is getting in the media now is sufficient for the management team of the co op to realise the wrongdoings of the past will likely be water under the bridge if they do the right thing for shareholders going forward.