Why are Gaelscoils so popular with parents?(mod warning in op)

fed up sick and tired

greenflash wrote: »

So you admit your motivation for sending your children to a gaelscoil is one of segregation rather than education. Well done, at least you're honest.

You started with with 'So... ', which is often a bad sign. Sure enough you proceeded to fabricate my position without a shred of evidence (I don't have children of school-going age).

You then accused me of being a segregationist. Insulting, untrue, but not really incongruous with 'education' as a selection criterion anyway.

Apart from that, if the gaelscoil was the best school for my child all things considered I would't give a damn if he or she as the only Irish person in the place.

My three children are registered with our local gaelscoil, as well as the nearest ET. I believe gaelscoil, which has Catholic patronage and is over-subscribed, will reject my children on the grounds that they are not baptised.

Believe is not good enough. And anyway, basic logic says you can't go from the particular to the general.

My eldest is in pre-school year and many other parents of children at the crèche openly admit their kids are down for the gaelscoil so they will be educated in a predominantly Irish middle class environment. They fear Eastern European, African, Asian or Traveler children will slow down the education of their own kids.

Casual reference to the Irish middle class in a big huff about race and ethnicity. Are you politically committed ?

They fear the playmates their children might bring home and they fear their own inability to engage with the parents of said playmates should they find themselves in social situations.

BS

Our local gaelscoil is overwhelmingly white Catholic. It does not have a SNU. It does have the luxury of being able to set its own selection criteria and it is extremely popular with a certain parent demographic. This is how it is regardless of how much indignation you throw in my direction.

If those parents believe it is the best thing for their children, then they would be stupid to do any other. Regardless of how much indignation you throw... etc etc

LordSutch

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

English is the native language to some Irish people, Irish to others. Even Polish or French. English isn't everybody's native language here.

You are having a laugh :rolleyes:

Anyway, I thought it would be nice to let you know my position which should raise a few smiles. My opinion has always been that "Irish should not be compulsory in secondry school after Inter Cert", indeed I think the whole mandatory Irish mentality by successive Governments since Irish was introduced (1920s/30s) has been a sham and a pretence in the form of such a massive effort to make everybody speak Irish, with such little return.

Ironically for my kids, they go to an English speaking 'non gaelscoil' Primary school which is plastered with Irish signage, stories in Irish, poems in Irish, indeed the minute you walk into the school everything from the foyer right through the corridors & into the sports hall is full of Irish language on the walls. Funny thing is though, nobody speaks Irish when you enter the school....

According to my wife the teachers don't speak Irish to the waiting parents, the parents don't speak Irish to the teachers either, when the kids leave from class they don't speak Irish, and the teachers don't speak to them in Irish as they emerge from class. Indeed we have never heard any Irish being spoken by anybody there, wait, hold on a minute..... actually I did once witness a teacher with three or four sixth class kids in the corridor doing Irish homework (they seemed to be struggling), but apart from that I don't know why the school is so full of Irish writings?

To first time visitors 'The Optics' must give the impression of a Gaelscoil or Irish speaking school/society, but the reality is that like most other non Gaelscoils neither the kids nor the parents speak Irish.

Just thought I'd share that with you.

timthumbni

In Northern Ireland the Gael scoil system is really helping integrate the 2 communities up here.....

fed up sick and tired

timthumbni wrote: »

In Northern Ireland the Gael scoil system is really helping integrate the 2 communities up here.....

Ignoring your sarcasm, and I know the language and the schools are related but separate issues, but in time there may be hope.

An interesting article I came across...

Linda Ervine, a sister-in-law of the late loyalist leader David Ervine, and the first Irish-language development officer in the east of the city...

“Oh, she has a passion for the language all right,” laughs Ervine’s husband Brian. “To her, it’s something beautiful, it’s the healing tongue, and it’s being used here to heal divisions in our society... Depoliticised language is the basis for ordinary people to get together.”

“We encourage our students to go up to Cultúrlann on the Falls Road, and we've had great support from within the Irish language movement. They have bent over backwards for us, and we have made some real friends there.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/ulster-says-t%C3%A1-1.1350425

love humanity

Because we are Irish, it's a beautiful language part of our identity and culture and who we are as a people. And bilingual children do better academically. Plus they will pick up another language very easily when they get older.

timthumbni

fed up sick and tired wrote: »

Ignoring your sarcasm, and I know the language and the schools are related but separate issues, but in time there may be hope.

An interesting article I came across...

l]

I really don't think so. Linda Irvine would be viewed as somewhat of an oddity up here and not at all reflective of the general situation. Even those few who learn the language would not be sending their kids to a gaelscoil.

They are just another barrier to school integration in Northern Ireland and that is the issue I would have up here. Until the schooling system is integrated then we are doomed to repeat the previous problems.

I recognise that these issues may not be relevant in the republic though.

Baggy Trousers

love humanity wrote: »

Because we are Irish, it's a beautiful language part of our identity and culture and who we are as a people.

Is it really beautiful? It doesn't sound beautiful to me. French sounds beautiful. German not so much. Irish sounds rough.

love humanity

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Is it really beautiful? It doesn't sound beautiful to me. French sounds beautiful. German not so much. Irish sounds rough.

I know people from different countries who are learning it and they really love it. It depends on your taste. Real Gaeltacht Irish can be very beautiful, school Irish not so much.

Baggy Trousers

love humanity wrote: »

I know people from different countries who are learning it and they really love it. It depends on your taste. Real Gaeltacht Irish can be very beautiful, school Irish not so much.

We'll agree to differ.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

love humanity wrote: »

Because I am Irish, it's a beautiful language part of my identity and culture and who I am as a person. And bilingual children do better academically. Plus they will pick up another language very easily when they get older.

FYP. I accept your second point, but why does the second language have to be Irish? Why not let the student decide for themselves if more than one language is available to them?

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Is it really beautiful? It doesn't sound beautiful to me. French sounds beautiful. German not so much. Irish sounds rough.

I've always prefered Elvish. Difficult to find people to converse with, but what can you do?

love humanity

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

FYP. I accept your second point, but why does the second language have to be Irish? Why not let the student decide for themselves if more than one language is available to them?

Because we are in Ireland and we speak Irish and English. It is our duty to pass on the gift of Irish to every generation.... we just have to teach it in a modern fun effective way, not the useless archaic way used now.

Tombo2001

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

FYP. I accept your second point, but why does the second language have to be Irish? Why not let the student decide for themselves if more than one language is available to them?

Rather than do the 'ironic answer' thing, I will simply state the obvious that (I) most 5 year olds don't have a strong view on which second language they want to learn (fairy language maybe); and (ii) there isn't an abundance of German/ French/ Mandarin/ Spanish language primary schools in Ireland.

silverharp

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Rather than do the 'ironic answer' thing, I will simply state the obvious that (I) most 5 year olds don't have a strong view on which second language they want to learn (fairy language maybe); and (ii) there isn't an abundance of German/ French/ Mandarin/ Spanish language primary schools in Ireland.

In Dublin there would be a demand for a few European language schools. There is a French and German school in Dublin but they are fee paying.

Chronicler

love humanity wrote: »

Because we are in Ireland and we speak Irish and English..

Vast majority don't speak any Irish.

love humanity wrote: »

It is our duty to pass on the gift of Irish to every generation.

Gift?

Sounds like a load of twaddle tbh.

We're not getting any return for the vast amounts of money and effort being pumped into trying to artificially keep a dead language alive.

Times are changing, you either go with them or end up like Canute trying to turn back the tide.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

love humanity wrote: »

Because we are in Ireland and we speak Irish and English. It is our duty to pass on the gift of Irish to every generation.... we just have to teach it in a modern fun effective way, not the useless archaic way used now.

That doesn't answer my question. "we" are not a hive. "We" are individuals and as such deserve to be treated as such.

The student is a "him" or a "her". Why does "he" or "she" not have a say in the language "he" or "she" wants to study, if they feel no affinity for the language ascribed?

You say it's a gift, but you can not force a gift upon someone who has no need or desire for it.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Rather than do the 'ironic answer' thing, I will simply state the obvious that (I) most 5 year olds don't have a strong view on which second language they want to learn (fairy language maybe); and (ii) there isn't an abundance of German/ French/ Mandarin/ Spanish language primary schools in Ireland.

Fair point, but I am talking more about secondary school here, not primary; as this is really the first chance that students get to choose what they want to study.

OldNotWIse

Because they don't want their kids mixing with other kids who are not Irish, but they cant say that because it might sound a little racist so instead they pretend they want their kid to speak Irish.

love humanity

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Because they don't want their kids mixing with other kids who are not Irish, but they cant say that because it might sound a little racist so instead they pretend they want their kid to speak Irish.

My local gaelscoil has lots of kids who are from an immigrant background so that's that argument out the window anyway

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

My local gaelscoil has lots of kids who are from an immigrant background so that's that argument out the window anyway

Because of one anecdote? I don't think so

love humanity

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That doesn't answer my question. "we" are not a hive. "We" are individuals and as such deserve to be treated as such.

The student is a "him" or a "her". Why does "he" or "she" not have a say in the language "he" or "she" wants to study, if they feel no affinity for the language ascribed?

You say it's a gift, but you can not force a gift upon someone who has no need or desire for it.





Fair point, but I am talking more about secondary school here, not primary; as this is really the first chance that students get to choose what they want to study.

We are Irish and Irish is part of our nation and culture and people. It instills the necessary values of patriotism and national pride in our future citizens which strengthens our country and brings us together as one people, making us a strong country.

Baggy Trousers

love humanity wrote: »

We are Irish and Irish is part of our nation and culture and people. It instills the necessary values of patriotism and national pride in our future citizens which strengthens our country and brings us together as one people, making us a strong country.

Ein Volk, Ein Reich?

Love Humanity as long as they are Irish and Christian?

love humanity

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Because of one anecdote? I don't think so

As opposed to your ad hominem of the Gaelcsoileanna minus any evidence ?

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

We are Irish and Irish is part of our nation and culture and people. It instills the necessary values of patriotism and national pride in our future citizens which strengthens our country and brings us together as one people, making us a strong country.

What's a "strong country"?

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

As opposed to your ad hominem of the Gaelcsoileanna minus any evidence ?

Did I hit a nerve?

love humanity

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Ein Volk, Ein Reich?

Love Humanity as long as they are Irish and Christian?

Are you saying our future citizens can only be Irish and Christian? Are you saying new Irish can' t be patriotic and take pride in their new nation?

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

Are you saying our future citizens can only be Irish and Christian? Are you saying new Irish can' t be patriotic and take pride in their new nation?

You don't have to be force fed a dead language in order to be patriotic.

love humanity

OldNotWIse wrote: »

You don't have to be force fed a dead language in order to be patriotic.

I agree, that is why we don't force feed a dead language.

Baggy Trousers

love humanity wrote: »

Are you saying our future citizens can only be Irish and Christian? Are you saying new Irish can' t be patriotic and take pride in their new nation?

No, you were.

We are Irish and Irish is part of our nation and culture and people. It instills the necessary values of patriotism and national pride in our future citizens which strengthens our country and brings us together as one people, making us a strong country.

Chronicler

love humanity wrote: »

We are Irish and Irish is part of our nation and culture and people. It instills the necessary values of patriotism and national pride in our future citizens which strengthens our country and brings us together as one people, making us a strong country.

Eireann, Eireann, thuas gach rud.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

love humanity wrote: »

We are Irish and Irish is part of our nation and culture and people. It instills the necessary values of patriotism and national pride in our future citizens which strengthens our country and brings us together as one people, making us a strong country.

I thought I'd highlighted the selfishness of using the first person plural to describe people you didn't know or didn't care about?

Patriotism is far from essential and all this bull**** about future citizens just goes to prove my point: you don't care about the students you describe.

Forcing people to undertake tasks they neither enjoy nor care about will pull people apart and produce a weak, intolerant society. Look at some of the posts in this thread if you don't believe me.

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

I agree, that is why we don't force feed a dead language.

Presumably when you say "we" you are referring to yourself in a parental capacity and not us as a country that subjects school going children to 14 years of Irish.

love humanity

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

No, you were.

So you are saying new Irish children are not Irish ?

Baggy Trousers

love humanity wrote: »

So you are saying new Irish children are not Irish ?

What? You are all over the place!

love humanity

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I thought I'd highlighted the selfishness of using the first person plural to describe people you didn't know or didn't care about?

Patriotism is far from essential and all this bull**** about future citizens just goes to prove my point: you don't care about the students you describe.

Forcing people to undertake tasks they neither enjoy nor care about will pull people apart and produce a weak, intolerant society. Look at some of the posts in this thread if you don't believe me.

That is illogical. In that case we would never teach anything beneficial to our children as they are all individuals and should only do what they feel like using this logic. Forcing children to learn maths has lead to a weak intolerant society then?

If people don't love their country, would they care about it? Would you care about something you hate? Patriotism is instilling a love and pride in your country and its achievements, a love for the culture of its people and its society and creates individuals who will dedicate their lives to the good and benefit of Ireland, what is wrong with that?

Chronicler

love humanity wrote: »

If people don't love their country, would they care about it? Would you care about something you hate? Patriotism is instilling a love and pride in your country and its achievements, a love for the culture of its people and its society and creates individuals who will dedicate their lives to the good and benefit of Ireland, what is wrong with that?

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Baggy Trousers

Chronicler wrote: »

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

It's seems love humanity's love stops at the border.

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

That is illogical. In that case we would never teach anything beneficial to our children as they are all individuals and should only do what they feel like using this logic. Forcing children to learn maths has lead to a weak intolerant society then?

If people don't love their country, would they care about it? Would you care about something you hate? Patriotism is instilling a love and pride in your country and its achievements, a love for the culture of its people and its society and creates individuals who will dedicate their lives to the good and benefit of Ireland, what is wrong with that?

1. Maths is actually useful
2. Being forced to learn Irish does not make you love your country

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

love humanity wrote: »

That is illogical. In that case we would never teach anything beneficial to our children as they are all individuals and should only do what they feel like using this logic. Forcing children to learn maths has lead to a weak intolerant society then?

This is an argument in favour of compulsion, not patriotism. Being a patrriot is not compulsory.

Maths is a lifeskill, Irish is not.

If people don't love their country, would they care about it? Would you care about something you hate? Patriotism is instilling a love and pride in your country and its achievements, a love for the culture of its people and its society and creates individuals who will dedicate their lives to the good and benefit of Ireland, what is wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with it. My point is that it's selfish (and incredibly ignorant) to think everyone else should just follow blindly.

love humanity

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

It's seems love humanity's love stops at the border.

Ad hominem again : )
Patriotism doesn't mean looking down on other countries and thinking you are better than them. That's fascism surely?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Baggy Trousers

love humanity wrote: »

Ad hominem again : )
Patriotism doesn't mean looking down on other countries and thinking you are better than them. That's fascism surely?

You seem to be aguing with yourself.

"Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it" GBS

love humanity

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

You seem to be aguing with yourself.

"Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it" GBS

Definition: devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty

So you prefer people who hate Ireland, don't support it, wouldn't defend it, and are disloyal? hahaha

Baggy Trousers

love humanity wrote: »

Definition: devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty

So you prefer people who hate Ireland, don't support it, wouldn't defend it, and are disloyal? hahaha

I think you're a little unhinged today so I am going to stop replying to you.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

love humanity wrote: »

Definition: devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty

So you prefer people who hate Ireland, don't support it, wouldn't defend it, and are disloyal? hahaha

Devoted love is allowing people to go their own way and choose for themsevles what the like UNCONDITIONALLY - in other words, still accepting and support their decisions rather than forcing a will upon them.

love humanity

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Devoted love is allowing people to go their own way and choose for themsevles what the like UNCONDITIONALLY - in other words, still accepting and support their decisions rather than forcing a will upon them.

So loving Ireland isn't something you want promoted to the future generation for the good of the country? just the individual matters? seems selfish

Chronicler

love humanity wrote: »

So you prefer people who hate Ireland, don't support it, wouldn't defend it, and are disloyal? hahaha

Gosh, now that you've explained the dangers of not force-feeding kids Irish for 13 years, I might have to reconsider my views on the matter.

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

So loving Ireland isn't something you want promoted to the future generation for the good of the country? just the individual matters? seems selfish

The point is that "loving Ireland" is not guaranteed by force feeding someone a useless language.

I don't know why I even bother....

love humanity

OldNotWIse wrote: »

The point is that "loving Ireland" is not guaranteed by force feeding someone a useless language.

I don't know why I even bother....

So you are bigoted against the Irish language and those who speak it?

Muff Richardson

timthumbni wrote: »

I really don't think so. Linda Irvine would be viewed as somewhat of an oddity up here and not at all reflective of the general situation. Even those few who learn the language would not be sending their kids to a gaelscoil.

They are just another barrier to school integration in Northern Ireland and that is the issue I would have up here. Until the schooling system is integrated then we are doomed to repeat the previous problems.

I recognise that these issues may not be relevant in the republic though.

90% of the schools in the north are separate faith schools, this is the real reason for segregation. What difference does it make if a school is a catholic English speaking school or a catholic Gaelscoil, still little chance of integration between the two communities.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

love humanity wrote: »

So loving Ireland isn't something you want promoted to the future generation for the good of the country? just the individual matters? seems selfish

I'm saying the individual matters. I'm not saying JUST the individual matters.

What you seem to be getting at here is more a sense of community rather than a sense of patriotism, which is fine - but that's nothing to do with language.

And sending your child to a Gaelscoil (just to get back on topic ) - is certainly not going to be the defining influence in a child's sense of community.

Chronicler

love humanity wrote: »

So you are bigoted against the Irish language and those who speak it?

So you do believe that Badgers never falling cupcake on a Tuesday?