Why are Gaelscoils so popular with parents?(mod warning in op)

NS77

love humanity wrote: »

My local gaelscoil has lots of kids who are from an immigrant background so that's that argument out the window anyway

Exactly.. a lot of Gaelscoileanna appear to be multi-denominational :cool:

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

So you are bigoted against the Irish language and those who speak it?

:D

ted1

OldNotWIse wrote: »

The point is that "loving Ireland" is not guaranteed by force feeding someone a useless language.

I don't know why I even bother....

Good things that GaelScoils don't force feed, they do it through immersion which is why the kids become fluent.

English language schools force feed it and make a balls of it, if they concentrated on conversation as oppose to grammar they would have a bettet success rate,.

If you think Gael scoils force feed than you simply have no idea how they operate

OldNotWIse

ted1 wrote: »

Good things that GaelScoils don't force feed, they do it through immersion which is why the kids become fluent.

Bearl scoops force feed it and make a balls of it, if they concentrated on conversation as oppose to grammar they would have a bettet success rate,.

If you think Gael scoils force feed than you simply have no idea how they operate

Except I don't, and my force feed comment was directed at schools in general.

Funny how I came away from secondary school fluent in two other European languages after only four years, notwithstanding the fact that I also had to focus on grammar for those too...

ted1

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Funny how I came away from secondary school fluent in two other European languages after only four years, notwithstanding the fact that I also had to focus on grammar for those too...

I spent 6 years in secondary school doing French and can't put a sentence together. I learnt Spainish very fast through immersion and was never thought it in school.

The way the teach Irish in schools needs to be changed .
What use is learning lists
Liom
Leat
Leis
Lei
Etc
That's no way to learn a language

realdanbreen

I feel a grind coming on!

OldNotWIse

realdanbreen wrote: »

I feel a grind coming on!

Linn
Libh
Leo!!!:D:D

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Sounds like the cast of a South Korean musical...

legocrazy505

love humanity wrote: »

If people don't love their country, would they care about it? Would you care about something you hate? Patriotism is instilling a love and pride in your country and its achievements, a love for the culture of its people and its society and creates individuals who will dedicate their lives to the good and benefit of Ireland, what is wrong with that?

I was waiting for someone to pull the patriotism card the Irish whine about when it comes to the British.

Do you support the idea of patriotism then for say Germany, should they be proud of the Nazis? Should the UK be proud of the damage they did to foreign lands?

Do you see where patriotism gets people? Patriotism is a nice word for encouraging bigoted and egotistical beliefs. Indoctrinating kids to love your country no matter what makes us no better than the Bible Belt.

You don't need patriotism to do good. You need educated people who learn from the mistakes of the past and strive to do better. That's the opposite of what patriotism leads to (you only have to look at the modern day IRA sympathisers to see this). If you want patriotism you support the likes of the IRA and the unionists who only care about their country above the good of all people.

Tombo2001

legocrazy505 wrote: »

I was waiting for someone to pull the patriotism card the Irish whine about when it comes to the British.

Do you support the idea of patriotism then for say Germany, should they be proud of the Nazis? Should the UK be proud of the damage they did to foreign lands?

Do you see where patriotism gets people? Patriotism is a nice word for encouraging bigoted and egotistical beliefs. Indoctrinating kids to love your country no matter what makes us no better than the Bible Belt.

You don't need patriotism to do good. You need educated people who learn from the mistakes of the past and strive to do better. That's the opposite of what patriotism leads to (you only have to look at the modern day IRA sympathisers to see this). If you want patriotism you support the likes of the IRA and the unionists who only care about their country above the good of all people.

I think both sides are being a bit selective in their arguments.

Being a patriotic German doesn't mean that you love Nazis. There are plenty of patriotic Germans.

Not caring about the Irish language doesn't mean that you don't care about Ireland, or that you aren't patriotic about Ireland. They are not symbiotic.

The original question was

Why are Gaeilscoils so Popular with parents?

That's been answered now by

(I) parents who send their kids to Gaeilscoils

and

(II) people who are opposed to Gaeilscoils.

Naturally the two sets of answers are completely different. Both camps are entrenched. Is there any point in continuing the thread? I'm not sure what its about at this point.

love humanity

legocrazy505 wrote: »

I was waiting for someone to pull the patriotism card the Irish whine about when it comes to the British.

Do you support the idea of patriotism then for say Germany, should they be proud of the Nazis? Should the UK be proud of the damage they did to foreign lands?

Do you see where patriotism gets people? Patriotism is a nice word for encouraging bigoted and egotistical beliefs. Indoctrinating kids to love your country no matter what makes us no better than the Bible Belt.

You don't need patriotism to do good. You need educated people who learn from the mistakes of the past and strive to do better. That's the opposite of what patriotism leads to (you only have to look at the modern day IRA sympathisers to see this). If you want patriotism you support the likes of the IRA and the unionists who only care about their country above the good of all people.

Sure you can look at extreme examples but that would not be real patriotism, that would be fascism and supremism which is not what Irish Patriotism is about. It's a down to earth love for our country and wanting the best for it, being proud of our language and culture and our achievements as a people both at home and abroad, while learning from our past mistakes.

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

Sure you can look at extreme examples but that would not be real patriotism, that would be fascism and supremism which is not what Irish Patriotism is about. It's a down to earth love for our country and wanting the best for it, being proud of our language and culture and our achievements as a people both at home and abroad, while learning from our past mistakes.

I am proud of my country.

I don't speak Irish and I wouldn't force my child to speak Irish.

I am still proud of my country, because it is not defined by a dead language - we are so much more than that.

love humanity

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I am proud of my country.

I don't speak Irish and I wouldn't force my child to speak Irish.

I am still proud of my country, because it is not defined by a dead language - we are so much more than that.

Just because you say it is dead, doesn't make it dead. That is just being bigoted.

OldNotWIse

love humanity wrote: »

Just because you say it is dead, doesn't make it dead. That is just being bigoted.

That's the second time today you have called me bigoted simply because I disagree with you and I really think you should get over yourself and don't stoop so low as to blatantly insult other posters because you don't like what they have said. Name calling is childish and pathetic.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think both sides are being a bit selective in their arguments.

Being a patriotic German doesn't mean that you love Nazis. There are plenty of patriotic Germans.

Not caring about the Irish language doesn't mean that you don't care about Ireland, or that you aren't patriotic about Ireland. They are not symbiotic.

The original question was

Why are Gaeilscoils so Popular with parents?

That's been answered now by

(I) parents who send their kids to Gaeilscoils

and

(II) people who are opposed to Gaeilscoils.

Naturally the two sets of answers are completely different. Both camps are entrenched. Is there any point in continuing the thread? I'm not sure what its about at this point.

The essential point raised was the necessity (or lack thereof) of patriotism and the roll Gaelscoils play in that. As patriotism rarely seems to be the motive (at least, judging by the responces on the thread) it's probably a moot point.

In any case, as I said earlier, I think Love Humanity is refering to community rather than patriotism, but Irish isn't required for that.

Caoimhgh1n

OldNotWIse wrote: »

That's the second time today you have called me bigoted simply because I disagree with you and I really think you should get over yourself and don't stoop so low as to blatantly insult other posters because you don't like what they have said. Name calling is childish and pathetic.

Nobody should agree with what you said, Irish isn't a dead language. It is still spoken, like it or not. You're trying to twist things by saying "simply because I disagree with you", whereas in reality, you're making false claims.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

Bigoted is the wrong word entirely, you're right.

Misled, perhaps. I can tell you first-hand that the Irish language is far from dead. There are meet-ups all over Cork city anyway, people speaking Irish in pubs together and in other social groups in various haunts. I frequently converse with my buddies (who have Irish) as Gaeilge. All my nieces and nephews are quite good at the basic phrases and I drop them some simple new ones any time I'm playing with them, they'll no doubt be fabulous Gaelgóirí when they're a bit older and they'll be able to head off to Irish college and enjoy the craic there.

Moreover, I often go on summer holidays to the Aran Islands and it's so class being able to immerse myself in the native tongue with the locals. These are people who have seldom spoken English to anyone except tourists and I feel proud and privileged to be able to communicate with them perfectly in the language we have spoken for centuries.

Just because you haven't got an interest in something, doesn't mean it's not happening.

LordSutch

According to the last census Irish is the third most spoken language in the State after English & Polish, with Chinese/Mandarin in 4th place. It will be interesting to see if Irish has held onto 3rd place when the results of the latest census are realeased, or if Chinese has overtaken it, therby pushing Irish into 4th place? ...we'll have to wait and see.

Maybe Irish will leapfrog Polish into 2nd place?

Shep_Dog

Mckenna Acidic Ferret wrote: »

Misled, perhaps. I can tell you first-hand that the Irish language is far from dead. There are meet-ups all over Cork city anyway, people speaking Irish in pubs together and in other social groups in various haunts. I frequently converse with my buddies (who have Irish) as Gaeilge. All my nieces and nephews are quite good at the basic phrases and I drop them some simple new ones any time I'm playing with them, they'll no doubt be fabulous Gaelgóirí when they're a bit older and they'll be able to head off to Irish college and enjoy the craic there.

What you describe is a hobby, not a language.

Caoimhgh1n

Shep_Dog wrote: »

What you describe is a hobby, not a language.

Speaking Irish in pubs and with friends frequently is a hobby and not a language?

Shep_Dog

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Speaking Irish in pubs and with friends frequently is a hobby and not a language?

A living language is spoken by whole provinces or countries on a full-time basis. Other signs of life would include the publication of daily newspapers in the langauge and unsubsidised radio & TV stations.

What you refer to is a nice pastime.

ted1

OldNotWIse wrote: »

That's the second time today you have called me bigoted simply because I disagree with you and I really think you should get over yourself and don't stoop so low as to blatantly insult other posters because you don't like what they have said. Name calling is childish and pathetic.

In fairness you not just disagreeing with him , you are making a sweeping inaccurate statement

ted1

Shep_Dog wrote: »

A living language is spoken by whole provinces or countries on a full-time basis. Other signs of life would include the publication of daily newspapers in the langauge and unsubsidised radio & TV stations.

What you refer to is a nice pastime.

RTE is subsidised, TV3 is staying afloat by buying in cheap foreign rubbish which isn't an avenue for a Irish Language station.

Print media is s dying bred so that's not relevant at all.

Wolff

I think Shep_Dog has hit it on the head there

Launch an Irish Newspaper in the morning and see how long it would last - days more than likley.

The same for an non-subsidised Irish Language TV station. RTE is part subsidised - TG4 buys in lots of cheap foregin rubbish as well and translates it and it makes a far bit of its own.

Irish is not a living thriving language - its a niche hobby at best.

ted1

Wolff wrote: »

I think Shep_Dog has hit it on the head there

Launch an Irish Newspaper in the morning and see how long it would last - days more than likley.

The same for an non-subsidised Irish Language TV station. RTE is part subsidised - TG4 buys in lots of cheap foregin rubbish as well and translates it and it makes a far bit of its own.

Irish is not a living thriving language - its a niche hobby at best.

Never thought a wolf and a sheepdog would get on.
The cost of translating adds to the cost of the program , so it's not the same as when tv3 buy it.

Wolff

Cheap bought in Rubbish is still cheap bought in rubbish no matter what language its in Im afraid maybe the translators jobs in TG4 are whats worth protecting ?

Interestingly enough if you look at the top 10 on TG4 for March movies and sport look to account for most programmes -including Under Siege 1 and 2 no less -so maybe scrap TG4 and just set up a sports/movie dubbed channel ? oh the others are mainly music including the home produced rubbish - Glór Tíre 12

An if you go over to TV3 and do the same analysis - there is very little bought in rubbish there on the top 10 or sport just a mix of home grown drama, news and what passes for documentaries on TV3

And on RTE 1 the mix is even more varied - mostly home produced material.


And its Wollf

maudgonner

Wolff wrote: »

And its Wollf

No, it isn't

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Speaking Irish in pubs and with friends frequently is a hobby and not a language?

Pretty much - in the same way speaking about football in pubs with friends is hobby.

Caoimhgh1n

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Pretty much - in the same way speaking about football in pubs with friends is hobby.

If you only spoke about football in pubs and with friends, then it is no longer just a hobby.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

If you only spoke about football in pubs and with friends, then it is no longer just a hobby.

How so?

Wolff

Still TG4 fans - expalin to me why Under Seige 1 and 2 are in the top 10 programmes for March for TG4 ?

Ok the first one isin't bad - but Under Siege 2 - how could that get any worse

Oh Irish Subtitiles.....now I get it

and its Wolff :P

Shep_Dog

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

If you only spoke about football in pubs and with friends, then it is no longer just a hobby.

True, that would be an obsession, just like trying to make a whole country speak Irish.

Caoimhgh1n

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

How so?

It would be a way of life.

Caoimhgh1n

Shep_Dog wrote: »

True, that would be an obsession, just like trying to make a whole country speak Irish.

I never said that I wanted the entire country speaking Irish (I wouldn't mind it though ), I was just stating it isn't a dead language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

It would be a way of life.

So is football to some people. So are pubs for that matter.

MadDog76

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yeah but ......... that's mainly Polish people, is it not? :rolleyes:

Caoimhgh1n

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So is football to some people. So are pubs for that matter.

So is speaking English for some people..?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

So is speaking English for some people..?

Is Irish your primary means of communication?

Caoimhgh1n

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Is Irish your primary means of communication?

No, I live in an English-speaking household, but have 5 Irish speaking friends that I converse with through Irish weekly.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

No, I live in an English-speaking household, but have 5 Irish speaking friends that I converse with through Irish weekly.

I think you misundestand the difference between a hobby and a way of life. You can be (and presumably are) very passionate about it, but that doesn't mean it's a nto a hobby.

Shep_Dog

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

I never said that I wanted the entire country speaking Irish (I wouldn't mind it though ), I was just stating it isn't a dead language.

I did not say YOU did. Most Irish enthusiasts want to reinstate Irish as the common language of Ireland. They are members of Conradh na Gaeilge.

You assert Irish is not dead but you cannot show any significant sign of Irish being capable of autonomous existence as a living language, for example like Flemish, Danish or Italian.

We rejected Irish as our preferred, functional, language a long time ago. Speaking it now, is an intellectual pursuit.

Caoimhgh1n

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I think you misundestand the difference between a hobby and a way of life. You can be (and presumably are) very passionate about it, but that doesn't mean it's a nto a hobby.

It isn't a way of life for me, but for some people it is.

Iwasfrozen

Irish is not technically dead under the generally accepted definition as there are still native speakers but gaeltacht Irish at least seems to be moribound.

When Irish is no longer spoken as a native and majority language in any designated area how can even its strongest proponents argue revival is possible?

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish is not technically dead under the generally accepted definition as there are still native speakers but gaeltacht Irish at least seems to be moribound.

When Irish is no longer spoken as a native and majority language in any designated area how can even its strongest proponents argue revival is possible?

If.

Manx "died" and is currently under revival.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

If.

Manx "died" and is currently under revival.

The numbers don't lie.

So did Cornish, both of which are being "reconstructed" and preserved but are not in any meaningful sense under revival.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The numbers don't lie.

So did Cornish, both of which are being "reconstructed" and preserved but are not in any meaningful sense under revival.

That is your opinion, the people reviving them would probably say otherwise.

Shep_Dog

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

That is your opinion, the people reviving them would probably say otherwise.

Of course, it keeps the subsidies flowing in.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

That is your opinion, the people reviving them would probably say otherwise.

Probably, though they may have to explain why in a revived language Cornish words had to be borrowed from Welsh because the original Cornish word is not known. At some stage you have to wonder where is the line between language revival and language creation.

http://www.scotslanguage.com/The_Languages_Our_Neighbours_Speak/P-Celtic_Languages

But do you think Irish can be preserved in its current form let alone revived? I found this article very interesting and a real eye opener.

https://m.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/3fsmgb/interesting_article_on_gaeilge_as_a_moribound/

twowheelsonly

legocrazy505 wrote: »

Maybe because it is the only subject that is force-fed? Physics isn't force-fed because it's an optional LC subject, Geography and History are both optional after you get a basic knowledge in the Junior Cert.

English and maths are the only two other full time mandatory subjects in your list. Both are a cornerstone of being a functioning person in society. You won't get by life without being able to write a formal correspondence and won't get by not knowing the basics of maths. If you really don't like higher level maths or English you can drop down. The problem with Irish is the difference between Higher and Ordinary is practically non-existent, why should people who don't care about Irish be forced to do an oral marked at common level (they assume going in you're higher until you start talking)? Why should ordinary level Irish students be forced to learn off answers to poetry and "stories" (the stories are dreadful, go read one if you don't believe me)?

The Irish language is never taught as something that not everyone is fluent in. It's taught as if it's English and that's what makes it force-fed.

The examples I gave were purely random which I presumed (incorrectly obviously) that you'd gather from the gist of the sentence but seeing as you mentioned it.....
I'll give you physics as it's generally optional
English and Maths are 'force-fed' for all 13/14 years of school and History/Geography for 11 or 12 years after which it usually becomes optional.

IMO a lot of it is perception. I loved geography, and still do, so it was never a chore or felt like it was being forced on me. I know others though that were the complete opposite. Same goes for any subject.

English and maths are the only two other full time mandatory subjects in your list. Both are a cornerstone of being a functioning person in society

Is 13/14 years of either really necessary to become a 'functioning' person in society or is half of it just embellishment ? I did Honours in both in my LC and I can't honestly say that 13 years of either has or hasn't stood to me. I can say however that in the intervening 35 years I've never had the urge to quote Shakespeare and I've most definitely never again used Cos, Sine, Tan or a million other useless bits of information that were drilled into me over my school years.
Day to day, how many people can honestly say that they've used more than basic maths and basic english to conduct their business ? Of course there's going to be exceptions but those are a tiny minority. In that 35 years I can hand on heart say that I've used a lot,lot more Irish in my life than I have LC Honours maths.

Shep_Dog

"twowheelsonly wrote:

IMO a lot of it is perception. I loved geography, and still do, so it was never a chore or felt like it was being forced on me. I know others though that were the complete opposite. Same goes for any subject.... I did Honours in both in my LC and I can't honestly say that 13 years of either has or hasn't stood to me. I can say however that in the intervening 35 years I've never had the urge to quote Shakespeare and I've most definitely never again used Cos, Sine, Tan or a million other useless bits of information that were drilled into me over my school years.
Day to day, how many people can honestly say that they've used more than basic maths and basic english to conduct their business ? Of course there's going to be exceptions but those are a tiny minority. In that 35 years I can hand on heart say that I've used a lot,lot more Irish in my life than I have LC Honours

What this boils down to is that you think others should be denied choice because of your personal experience and because you think Irish is no more or less useful than any other subject.

That's not a strong argument against choice. If people were allowed choose their second language, they might embrace it and learn it well.