Why are Gaelscoils so popular with parents?(mod warning in op)

ted1

Shep_Dog wrote: »

They don't have much of a choice if their parents decide to conscript them into their anti- English jihad.

Time to call the crazy bus. You've lost it completely.

AnonoBoy

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Is there not normally preference given to children with Irish speaking parents?

Never heard of that as a policy.

Friend of mine teaches in one and says hardly any of the parents are native speakers themselves. A lot of them wouldn't even be considered fluent in the language - all his parent/teacher meetings are conducted in English.

Muff Richardson

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Is there not normally preference given to children with Irish speaking parents?

No, there is a preference given to children whose parents are raising the child through Irish, if the parents are fluent in Irish but the child hasn't a lick of it then they will be treated the same as any other applicant. This is enforced in the school by the Principal or Deputy asking the child a few basic questions when they meet him/her. Some Gaelscoils where demand is very high will actually have an informal oral exam with the child and their parents as part of the application process.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Muff Richardson wrote: »

You are aware that standardised testing is mandatory at primary level, Drumcondra testing, SIGMA T, MICRA T...discounting the Irish exam the Gaelscoils outperform the English speaking schools, Google it yourself. The results of these tests are pretty conclusive in the standard of education received by the child. This is also totally irrespective of the demographics of the children, there are Gaelscoils in all sorts of areas in Ireland.

The problem with that argument is that toy can't standardize kids.

EDIT - are these actually published? I can find lots of info about the test, but I'm not sure league tables of school results are even published.

Akrasia

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Never heard of that as a policy.

Friend of mine teaches in one and says hardly any of the parents are native speakers themselves. A lot of them wouldn't even be considered fluent in the language - all his parent/teacher meetings are conducted in English.

Yep, the cupla focal is about as far as most parents can go. My kids school sends all letters out in both Irish and English and meetings are held in the language preferred by the parent.

I think one way that gaelscoils benefit from a kind of unofficial selection bias, is because it's a specialised form of education, parents are more comfortable sending their kids to these schools when there are other local english speaking schools nearby.

Eg, if my local school is 1 mile away but I think it's maybe not the best equipped school or has a poor reputation, I can send my kids to the gaelscoil that's 3 miles away without having to constantly explain why I've 'shunned' the local school.

Local schools have a catchment area decided by geography, ie, which school is closest, but specialist schools have a catchment area decided by parental preference, so children from further away will go to these schools because they offer something different.

It's similar with other specialised schools like Steiner schools, or Educate Together, they can attract children from outside the natural catchment area, and the kinds of parents who will go to the extra effort to send their kids to a school that's further away, (or specifically move to live closer to these kinds of schools) tend to be more involved in their kids education and this almost automatically, results in better outcomes for the children.

ted1

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Never heard of that as a policy.

Friend of mine teaches in one and says hardly any of the parents are native speakers themselves. A lot of them wouldn't even be considered fluent in the language - all his parent/teacher meetings are conducted in English.

In our kids school it goes :
1. Siblings
2. Kids of past pupils
3. Kids who speak Irish at home
4. Others

We were lucky in that we got in under others. Out of 60 there was only one spot for orhers

realdanbreen

MadDog76 wrote: »

My son is an expert on the Famine, he could talk to you for hours on the subject ....... in two languages!

.

Wow! I'd say your dinner party's are very bor..,sorry, interesting!

Gatling

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

For their own ends without any chance of lawsuits re discrimination.

Doh. Really.

Based off what exactly

MarcoAntonio23

Shep_Dog wrote: »

So, it's an anti-English thing?

I'm sorry, I'm not qualified to answer your question as I'm only educating myself on Irish history.
I gave an insight into how my native tongue was on the point of extinction, only to be resurrected again when my people started to rediscover their roots & national identity.
Irish & Corsican history have a lot in common it seems regarding occupation.

MarcoAntonio23

legocrazy505 wrote: »

Let's be honest here, forcing it down the mouths of children hasn't helped either. You all go on about the "oppressive forces" yet it's basically how Irish is being kept on life support outside the Gaelscoils and Gaeltachts.

Excuse me for saying, but are you not proud to have your own language, it's part of your heritage?
I learned my language by choice, because it's part of who we are & allowing it to die, to me, would be like allowing a little of myself to die.
French was not our native language, italian was more common along with native Corsu, but it was forced on the populace of the island for two centuries.
There is no reason why languages cannot live side by side, but for one to suffer at the expense of the other, to me, is a shame.

Chronicler

MarcoAntonio23 wrote: »

I learned my language by choice, because it's part of who we are & allowing it to die, to me, would be like allowing a little of myself to die.

The Irish language Nazis don't believe in choice.

They believe the language should be force-feed to children over a period of 13years.

maudgonner

screamer wrote: »

It doesn't if kids are smart, and parents take an active interest and part in their education. God knows, I had dire teachers in schools, and in the subject I had the worst teacher I got the best grade because I worked my ass off to learn things myself (best way to learn BTW). Smart kids do not need wonderful teachers, average kids though, need every single bit of help they can get. Hence you see the scramble by parents to get their kids into what they perceive as "the best schools"....... I don't subscribe to it TBH, and those "best schools" are elitist usually and there's a culture in them that I'd not want to immerse my children in. Besides, some of the worst graduates I've ever hired came out of some of the most elite colleges, so silver spoons have very little value in my experience.

I'm sorry, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. We're not talking about elitism here. It has nothing to do with what schools are perceived as 'best' or where the wealthy kids go, it's about which schools actually are the best, or the best fit for your child. Quite apart from Gaelscoils, why wouldn't you want your child to go to the best school you can find?

Why in hell wouldn't you want them to go to a school where teachers, teaching methods and support systems work to spark their curiosity for learning, explain things in a way that makes it easy to grasp concepts, have a wide variety of topics, encourage kids to explore things for themselves etc etc. Surely that's a better environment than a place where teachers are putting in the hours? No matter what the situation at home or the child's ability, that will lead to a more satisfying education for the kid.

I'm not saying Gaelscoils provide this. I'm not saying all Gaelscoils are good. And I'm certainly not saying that all non-Gaelscoils are poor. But your argument that it doesn't matter where your child goes to school is absolutely ridiculous. If your child is stuck in a poor school, or with a poor teacher, you can of course help make up for that at home. But everybody would hope that they wouldn't have to do that, why wouldn't that be your aim?

spurious

Akrasia wrote: »

It's similar with other specialised schools like Steiner schools, or Educate Together, they can attract children from outside the natural catchment area, and the kinds of parents who will go to the extra effort to send their kids to a school that's further away, (or specifically move to live closer to these kinds of schools) tend to be more involved in their kids education and this almost automatically, results in better outcomes for the children.

This. Parental involvement and interest is key.

tvnutz

clairewithani wrote: »

So the kids said "when are we doing the famine?" and the teacher said "that's too hard to do in Irish" A credible story? I don't think so.

Yes its not credible because kids said it. Cop on to yourself, some kids are more mature and truthful than a lot of adults I have met. There was some unveiling of a memorial and that was how the topic came up when they asked the teacher. Primary school kids also do go into teachers and ask about topics they may have heard and they are discussed, I have several friends who are primary teachers.

You're point is just avoiding the actual debate as well.

tvnutz

ted1 wrote: »

Should you not teach them about the great hunger as oppose to a fictional famine?
Anyway either your story is bull or the kids/ teacher do not reflect what actually happens.

I can tell you that the kind do di the same curriculum as other schools in the state.

I already mentioned it could have just been a bad teacher and I have no idea what your last sentence is supposed to mean.

Gatling

Chronicler wrote: »

The Irish language Nazis don't believe in choice.

They believe the language should be force-feed to children over a period of 13years.

It actually gets worse

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

Local schools have a catchment area decided by geography, ie, which school is closest, but specialist schools have a catchment area decided by parental preference, so children from further away will go to these schools because they offer something different.

If that's the case the conservative anglophone all-girls Mercy convent 15km from my house must have been a "specialist school" as must have been the conservative anglophone all-boys Catholic school in the same place - both attended by bus loads of students each day, while the rest of us attended the local community college, aka "the tech". If those bastions of English Roman Catholic education qualify as "specialist schools" most schools in Ireland qualify as "specialist schools".

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

If that's the case the conservative anglophone all-girls Mercy convent 15km from my house must have been a "specialist school" as must have been the conservative anglophone all-boys Catholic school in the same place - both attended by bus loads of students each day, while the rest of us attended the local community college, aka "the tech". If those bastions of English Roman Catholic education qualify as "specialist schools" most schools in Ireland qualify as "specialist schools".

.... which brings us back to the original point: external factors have an influence.

Sofiztikated

We've talked about what schools we may send our kids to, when/if they come along.

The nearest Gaelscoil is definitely high up there. Of the 5 or 6 primary schools in the locality, it, and another school are in the top 2.

Why? Because the teachers are good, the extra programs are good, and the kids do well.

I genuinely don't give a fiddlers if the language is Irish or English. I want my children to be well educated, do better in life, and have every opportunity open to them.

I really don't care about the gender, nationality, religion, or social background of other parents. As long as it doesn't hinder my child, knock yourself right out.

Shep_Dog

MarcoAntonio23 wrote: »

Excuse me for saying, but are you not proud to have your own language, it's part of your heritage

For most of us, English is our own language. There are some native English speakers here thst are ashamed of their language and deal with this by sending their children to GaelScoil.

One should ask why such people feel this way.

Gatling

Shep_Dog wrote: »

native English speakers here thst are ashamed of their language and deal with this by sending their children to GaelScoil.

One should ask why such people feel this way.

That or people lacking a certain intelligence feel they have to attack something they fear or lack of understanding that gives certain people inferiority complexes

Gatling

So those of us who have kids in Gael scoils are

Racist
Anti immigrants
Nazis
Snobbs
Afraid of those who can't be named and riff raff
Ashamed of something now
Force feed children

Have to laugh at the poor percieved victims


Have I missed something ??

maudgonner

Shep_Dog wrote: »

For most of us, English is our own language. There are some native English speakers here thst are ashamed of their language and deal with this by sending their children to GaelScoil.

One should ask why such people feel this way.

I think they mainly live in your own mind. There may be one or two possible notable exceptions of course.

It is perfectly possible to be proud of speaking Irish and not ashamed of speaking English. And plenty of people aren't 'proud' of speaking Irish - they just speak it.

Shep_Dog

Gatling wrote: »

That or people lacking a certain intelligence feel they have to attack something they fear or lack of understanding that gives certain people inferiority complexes

Spoken like a true Gaelgeoir. All praise the sacred cow.

Gatling

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Spoken like a true Gaelgeoir. All praise the sacred cow.

Tá.

All HAIL

Madd Finn

Sleepy wrote: »

If those are the motivators of the parents, in theory, nothing. In practice, where those are the motivations of some of the parents, inequality.


Is there a Godwins Law equivalent for the mention of Thatcher?

No. But there should be one for the mention of "equality" in my opinion.

Sleepy wrote: »

My solution? For starters, I'd confiscate the schools from the Religious Orders in payment for their share of the abuse claims, strike religion from the curriculum entirely, teach kids that it's not something to be respected or kowtowed to. Educate Together wouldn't be necessary: no school would be allowed to engage in religious indoctrination and none would waste so much time "educating" children about the delusions of adults who should know better.

This utopian vision strongly implies no tolerance of diversity. What are the penalties for those who don't share it? (I know. I know. Godwin--the real one--lurks just around the corner but if you don't learn the lessons of the past......)

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd remove bonus points for Irish and make it an optional subject for Secondary level. Were I operating in a vacuum, I'd replace it with a modern European language at primary level but I recognise that most wouldn't be in favour of that.

There's a number of things we could be doing with Irish. And I accept your right to the point of view that we should just let it die. But, as you appear to concede, that's not everybody's view.

For what it's worth my view of Irish is that it holds a similar place in our national consciousness to the Monarchy in Britain: it's an ancient institution that we have inherited from centuries past;
we don't actually need it to function as a modern state and society;
opinion is divided about it: some people are passionately supportive of it, others passionately opposed to it and would like to see it gone, most are fairly apathetic;
it is an occasion for much snobbery and its hideous mirror image inverted snobbery;
it costs a lot to keep it going;
evidence from other parts of the world suggest that it is on borrowed time, has outlived any usefulness it ever had and will probably die out fairly soon;
as against all that it is an essential part of our history, culture and, immigrants notwithstanding, our identity and I believe we would miss it if it were gone.

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd get rid of two-tier system of teachers pay

Not sure what you mean by that. If you are referring to the austerity era practice of employing new teachers at much lower contracts to those who had the good fortune to be employed a few years before them, I'm with you. That should be a priority.

Sleepy wrote: »

and, after a couple of years of reviewing and weeding out and replacing the bad principals, give them far greater managerial control of their schools: from things such as staff performance reviews, ability to affect their pay grades and ultimately to help fire under-performing teachers sooner.

I'd increase the Dept of Education's budget massively and carry out a root-and-branch review of it's efficiency, removing under-performing employees. Perhaps this could be part-funded by rolling back on the current wasted expenditure on TG4, translation services, grants for Irish etc.

You do realise that that will bring about a greater disparity between good ie desirable schools and bad ones? Which I'm fine with. But I thought you were interested in "equality" and that one of the problems (as you see it) with the gaelscoileanna was that they are becoming full of little white middle class Irish faces to the exclusion of immigrants and our own angels with slightly dirtier faces?

Give a school a good reputation and you will give it a waiting list and a need to discriminate. Like I said: I'm fine with it. But when the wealthy and well connected start taking their place in the queue ahead of your little ruffians how are you going to keep them out?

Sleepy wrote: »

if using Irish as a means of attempting to bypass the problems faced by the rest of the education system isn't quite morally wrong, it's not exactly admirable.

There will always be good schools and bad schools, and any parent worthy of the name will want to send their children to a good school. If that means they sometimes claim to be Catholics having not darkened the door of a church since their wedding day, or profess to have a special interest in the Irish language then so be it.
Whatever you replace the Church or Gaelscoileanna with you will still get disparities between schools and parents doing what they think is necessary to get their children into the good ones.
Are you sure the Gaelscoileanna are your main bugbear?

The Young Wan

My cousin is sending her son to a Gaelscoil in September. She hasn't spoken a word of Irish in her life. I dread to think how homework will go.

ted1

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Spoken like a true Gaelgeoir. All praise the sacred cow.

Spoken like some one who has no point and thinkd a comment trying to put some one down makes them correct

uch

Gatling wrote: »

So those of us who have kids in Gael scoils are

Racist
Anti immigrants
Nazis
Snobbs
Afraid of those who can't be named and riff raff
Ashamed of something now
Force feed children

Have to laugh at the poor percieved victims


Have I missed something ??

You forgot Shinners

ted1

The Young Wan wrote: »

My cousin is sending her son to a Gaelscoil in September. She hasn't spoken a word of Irish in her life. I dread to think how homework will go.

It'll be grand, you be surprised how easy primary school homework is. It's not exactly rocket science and remember if your stuck the kid is bilingual .

stoplooklisten

uch wrote: »

You forgot Shinners

and anti transexual and gender fluid people

beach_walker

Gatling wrote: »

So those of us who have kids in Gael scoils are

Racist
Anti immigrants
Nazis
Snobbs
Afraid of those who can't be named and riff raff
Ashamed of something now
Force feed children

Have to laugh at the poor percieved victims


Have I missed something ??

You forgot "Massive hypocrites" also. Oh and "religious extremists".

conzy

I went to an irish primary school which was fun and I was fluent. I think it was a nice environment that may have been because it was mixed and not because it was an Irish speaking school. I wouldn't mind sending my kids to one.


I also went to an irish secondary school. This was a load of shíte and my education suffered as a result of science / maths / physics being bástardised into irish. They got bent out of shape when people spoke english when they should have spent more time worrying about the shocking level of maths and science education

uch

ted1 wrote: »

It'll be grand, you be surprised how easy primary school homework is. It's not exactly rocket science and remember if your stuck the kid is bilingual .

Very True Ted, when my daughter was in Gaelscoil, she was the one helping me learn Gaeilge, best teacher I ever had

Gatling

The Young Wan wrote: »

My cousin is sending her son to a Gaelscoil in September. She hasn't spoken a word of Irish in her life. I dread to think how homework will go.

For the first 3 years it's fairly basic till 1st and 2nd classes then the homework ramps up

MadDog76

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Forgive me if it has already been said, I was away on me holliers, and didn't read all this.

Gaelscoilleanna keep the riff raff and you know whos out. End of story.

Woooops.

Is that a bad thing?

MadDog76

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If they can't teach it in Irish, the should be teaching it in English as an exception. You can't really teach Irish history without teaching about the famine/great hunger/whatever the cool kids are calling it these days.

There's a problem here that rears it's head every now and then in these threads and that's the prioritising the language ahead of the actual standard of education the kids receive. The purpose of education is to educate, not preserve a language for a vested interest. There;s a sepearte government department for that.

You've made the mistake of thinking that post was factual, it wasn't.

Saying a subject can't be taught in Irish is like saying a subject can't be taught in French, Spanish etc. ......... total rubbish.

MadDog76

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The fundamentalist question is why do native-English-speaking parents want to change the native language of their children?

My children go to a Gaelscoil, their native language is, and will remain, English ......... they have a second language now though.

Spanish Eyes

MadDog76 wrote: »

Is that a bad thing?

You tell me.

But it is not what parents will tell you when they choose a Gaelscoil either. I'm talking about parents who do not, and never had, any Gaeilge themselves apart from their own schooling through English.

Educate together has an ethos, I can get that, but the Gaelscoilleanna while fine and dandy for those who have an interest in the language, covers up a whole lot of other stuff, as I said.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land frankly.

MadDog76

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Never heard of that as a policy.

Friend of mine teaches in one and says hardly any of the parents are native speakers themselves. A lot of them wouldn't even be considered fluent in the language - all his parent/teacher meetings are conducted in English.

True .......... I've zero Irish (despite being "taught" it for 14 years!?!) and my wife has about a dozen Irish words, never been a problem for us.

MadDog76

Muff Richardson wrote: »

No, there is a preference given to children whose parents are raising the child through Irish, if the parents are fluent in Irish but the child hasn't a lick of it then they will be treated the same as any other applicant. This is enforced in the school by the Principal or Deputy asking the child a few basic questions when they meet him/her. Some Gaelscoils where demand is very high will actually have an informal oral exam with the child and their parents as part of the application process.

That's *cough* bollocks not true of our local Gaelscoil.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

MadDog76 wrote: »

You've made the mistake of thinking that post was factual, it wasn't.

Saying a subject can't be taught in Irish is like saying a subject can't be taught in French, Spanish etc. ......... total rubbish.

The post I responded to presented as fact. I'm not sure if its true or not and I clearly opened the post with "if".

Your hypothesis, though, as at odds with the poster below, who claims to have suffered it.

conzy wrote: »

I went to an irish primary school which was fun and I was fluent. I think it was a nice environment that may have been because it was mixed and not because it was an Irish speaking school. I wouldn't mind sending my kids to one.


I also went to an irish secondary school. This was a load of shíte and my education suffered as a result of science / maths / physics being bástardised into irish. They got bent out of shape when people spoke english when they should have spent more time worrying about the shocking level of maths and science education

MadDog76

realdanbreen wrote: »

Wow! I'd say your dinner party's are very bor..,sorry, interesting!

I said he could talk to you about it ..........

PMBC

Shep_Dog wrote: »

For most of us, English is our own language. There are some native English speakers here thst are ashamed of their language and deal with this by sending their children to GaelScoil.

One should ask why such people feel this way.

I posted earlier and am on the positive of neutral for Gaelscoils; but this comment is way off. We, at home, always promoted books and the house was full of them 90% English, few Irish and others French and Spanish. Children were both educated at Primary GS and then standard Secondary as no Gs was available. Both got LC As in English. The younger got 97% and in one of the two papers 100%. So he didn't like English/English wasn't encouraged/he suffered through his Gs Primary education?!!!
You don't have to be be anti-English either language or people to be positive towards Gs.

MadDog76

The Young Wan wrote: »

My cousin is sending her son to a Gaelscoil in September. She hasn't spoken a word of Irish in her life. I dread to think how homework will go.

Tell your cousin not to worry, it won't be a problem.

MadDog76

stoplooklisten wrote: »

and anti transexual and gender fluid people

A separate topic but I'm personally glad that my child aren't exposed to "gender fluid" children ........... most schools in Ireland, Gaelscoil or not, don't accommodate this new phenomenon.

maudgonner

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The post I responded to presented as fact. I'm not sure if its true or not and I clearly opened the post with "if".

Your hypothesis, though, as at odds with the poster below, who claims to have suffered it.

It's not at odds at all.

Just because one school fails to teach a subject through Irish that does not mean that the subject cannot be taught through Irish. Plenty of schools (including my own secondary school) manage to teach subjects through Irish just fine. It does require a little more work, and that's why extra points are given in the LC, but it is perfectly possible.

You cannot take one example and use it to make sweeping statements.

Caoimhgh1n

MadDog76 wrote: »

A separate topic but I'm personally glad that my child aren't exposed to "gender fluid" children ........... most schools in Ireland, Gaelscoil or not, don't accommodate this new phenomenon.

I am glad I wasn't exposed to straight people. They're quite a strange bunch.

Note sarcasm.

MadDog76

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

You tell me.

But it is not what parents will tell you when they choose a Gaelscoil either. I'm talking about parents who do not, and never had, any Gaeilge themselves apart from their own schooling through English.

Educate together has an ethos, I can get that, but the Gaelscoilleanna while fine and dandy for those who have an interest in the language, covers up a whole lot of other stuff, as I said.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land frankly.

We chose to send our children to the local Gaelscoil because of the small class sizes, excellent teachers and great reputation ......... anything after that is an added bonus .......... neither myself, nor my wife, have any great interest in the language itself.

For example, if there are less likely to be "rough" kids in the school yard then all the better ........ I won't apologise for wanting to shelter my kids for as long as possible nor am I ashamed of wanting to protect them from the harsh realities of this world for as long as I can .......... and I was one of those "rough" kids once upon a time as I came from a less desirable area of Dublin.

screamer

maudgonner wrote: »

It's not at odds at all.

Just because one school fails to teach a subject through Irish that does not mean that the subject cannot be taught through Irish. Plenty of schools (including my own secondary school) manage to teach subjects through Irish just fine. It does require a little more work, and that's why extra points are given in the LC, but it is perfectly possible.

You cannot take one example and use it to make sweeping statements.

So people are given extra points as a perk because they are put at a disadvantage having to learn subjects through Irish? Well, that says it all for gaelscoilenna........ how messed up.