Western Rail Corridor Phase II: Athenry to Claremorris

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

http://connachttribune.ie/economic-review-of-rail-line-from-athenry-to-claremorris-022/

Never mind a politicians press release. Show me anything official with "phase 2" on it for this. No such thing exists as there is no phase 2 and no plans for there to ever be

Consonata

Deleted User wrote: »

Thread title is misleading, there is no phase 2 and no plans for a phase 2.

A more accurate title would be WRC - Athenry to Claremorris - A fools folly

Or maybe - Fool me once....

Or - A study of the absurd

Or - How to destroy that which you love

Or - How one line killed rail development for a country

And so on

DAE WRC = Literally Hitler..... anyone???

I think you are positively naive to think that WRC was the one reason why DU/MN/MS/Dublin Hyperloop hasn't happened yet. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Grandeeod

cgcsb wrote: »

If we were building a slow windy, sub aqua, railway anyway and could somehow justify that I don't see how we couldn't justify a few extra € on a modern solution.

Perhaps. But the modern solution would have to wait on planning and population density to catch up, so as to assist it.

Grandeeod

Consonata wrote: »

DAE WRC = Literally Hitler..... anyone???

I think you are positively naive to think that WRC was the one reason why DU/MN/MS/Dublin Hyperloop hasn't happened yet. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

It's not physically/financially the reason. It's culturally the reason. It's also a reason that Rosslare - Waterford closed as it did and will also be the reason Waterford - Limerick Junction and Ballybrophey - Limerick will close. Why? An incompetent Semi- State that cuts in accordance with it's shareholders instructions.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

No, Irish rail is more than capable of running services at 160km/h which is why Dublin-Cork is much faster by train than by Car. We could've built a modern railway that delivers a better journey time.

According to their website, its 150-190 mins by train. But you've to arrive 20 mins before the train leaves pushing it up to 190-210 mins.

Which is slower than cars outside peak hours.
Google maps gives a 160 min journey time leaving now for example.

cgcsb

Grandeeod wrote: »

Perhaps. But the modern solution would have to wait on planning and population density to catch up, so as to assist it.

The project had to wait on planning permission anyway. There'd be no need for more population density if the original project was going ahead anyway and delivering poor journey times by design.

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

According to their website, its 150-190 mins by train. But you've to arrive 20 mins before the train leaves pushing it up to 190-210 mins.

Which is slower than cars outside peak hours.
Google maps gives a 160 min journey time leaving now for example.

Nobody ever arrives 20 mins before a train. Also Dublin-Cork will have 15 minutes shaved off by the end of the year thanks to track works. The Cork-Dublin morning express will be only 2 hours. No way you could beat that in a car.

Grandeeod

cgcsb wrote: »

The project had to wait on planning permission anyway. There'd be no need for more population density if the original project was going ahead anyway and delivering poor journey times by design.

Sorry, but you aren't explaining yourself well. I assume you meant throwing an extra few quid at realigning the route when first planned?

cgcsb

Grandeeod wrote: »

Sorry, but you aren't explaining yourself well. I assume you meant throwing an extra few quid at realigning the route when first planned?

yes, i.e. simply designing the route properly start to finish rather than simply re-opening a victorian era railway that couldn't possibly offer good, competitive service in the 21st century. FF were committed to the project anyway, so in my view they should've spent the extra few € to get a useful rail connection between the 2 cities.

Retrofitting the line to modern standards now would be just throwing good money after bad imo unless it was going to be part of a substantial railway project aimed at connecting Cork to Galway in good time.

guylikeme

cgcsb wrote: »

Nobody ever arrives 20 mins before a train. Also Dublin-Cork will have 15 minutes shaved off by the end of the year thanks to track works. The Cork-Dublin morning express will be only 2 hours. No way you could beat that in a car.

Heuston != Dublin. Not in practical terms anyway. Add 20 min to get Luas to Abbey or Jervis. Car from Patrick St to O Connell likely would beat a person using rail.

And yes i know that this may change when tunnel opens.

cgcsb

guylikeme wrote: »

Heuston != Dublin. Not in practical terms anyway. Add 20 min to get Luas to Abbey or Jervis. Car from Patrick St to O Connell likely would beat a person using rail.

And yes i know that this may change when tunnel opens.

Car wouldn't get near O'Connell St in anywhere near the time of public transport during rush hours. Even including an additional 20 mins for luas, 10 mins for walking to Patrick St, the express train is still beating the car by at least 15 mins, not to mention attempts to park. With line improvements underway, a further 15 mins will be shaved off the train journey by November.

Besides the point is that Irish rail is well capable of delivering competitive journey times without building 'TGV' lines. A modern Ennis-Galway line above water level could easily provide a competitive service.

Carawaystick

[QUOTE=cgcsb;99955498
Besides the point is that Irish rail is well capable of delivering competitive journey times without building 'TGV' lines. A modern Ennis-Galway line above water level could easily provide a competitive service.[/QUOTE]

Where are Irish Rail delivering competitive times now? Not some maybe in the future it'll be better?

There is no way there'll be a competitive service from Galway to Claremorris anyway.

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Where are Irish Rail delivering competitive times now? Not some maybe in the future it'll be better?

Dublin-Cork
Dublin-Limerick
Dublin-Westport
Dublin-Kerry

All offer faster journeys than road alternatives at least at certain times of the day. Cork and Limerick will benefit from a 15 min reduction in journey times at the end of the year.

Carawaystick wrote: »

There is no way there'll be a competitive service from Galway to Claremorris anyway.

Probably not, any new railway will be done on the cheapy cheap and done for the sake of doing it rather than actually improving public transport services. The last government even threatened to do metro north on the cheapy cheap.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

at least at certain times of the day.

And there is where the argument fails.
Limerick Dublin isn't slower by car according to google maps

Bray Head

Carawaystick wrote: »

cgcsb wrote: »

at least at certain times of the day.

And there is where the argument fails.
Limerick Dublin isn't slower by car according to google maps

Business travellers are the ones who will care most about journey times.

In that regard final destinations are business parks on the edges of cities.

The immediate vicinity of Cork Kent station is low density housing and warehouses. Limerick Colbert has a sports pitch beside it.

In theory local authorities should aggressively CPO and re-zone areas in immediate vicinity of big stations for high-density employment. This has happened around Heuston and Pearse a bit but Connolly and Tara are still surrounded by empty space and/or low-density development.

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

And there is where the argument fails.
Limerick Dublin isn't slower by car according to google maps

Google's giving me 2h05 minutes by Car, fastest train is 1 hour 59 minutes.

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

In that regard final destinations are business parks on the edges of cities.

Not really true, A Third of the modern office space in Dublin is in Dublin 2, and about 70% of the office space is located within Central Dublin. Add in the Georgian offices and it's clear that Central Dublin and espeically Dublin 2 is the key business destination.

Bray Head wrote: »

The immediate vicinity of Cork Kent station is low density housing and warehouses. Limerick Colbert has a sports pitch beside it.

Opening up Kent to Horgan's quay will make Kent an easy walk from most of Cork's Central offices.

Bray Head wrote: »

Connolly and Tara are still surrounded by empty space and/or low-density development.

The IFSC is right beside Conolly. Tara Street is surrounded by massive office blocks

McAlban

cgcsb wrote: »

Opening up Kent to Horgan's quay will make Kent an easy walk from most of Cork's Central offices.

Any Detailed Plans for this available yet? All I've seen is Media Spin.

cgcsb

McAlban wrote: »

Any Detailed Plans for this available yet? All I've seen is Media Spin.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/property/commercial/kent-station-revamp-will-transformhorgans-quay-391559.html

Work started a few months ago. I would hope that we'll see a new station entrance at least partially open by early 2017. When finished it'll still be a bit of a battlefield since CIÉ will be developing office blocks on those sites.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

Google's giving me 2h05 minutes by Car, fastest train is 1 hour 59 minutes.

Fastest train journey is 2:04 on Irish rail
Plus getting a ticket and getting on the train before the station gate closes etc
And I can leave now in the car, not wait til the train is about to go, plus 2h4mins.

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Fastest train journey is 2:04 on Irish rail
Plus getting a ticket and getting on the train before the station gate closes etc
And I can leave now in the car, not wait til the train is about to go, plus 2h4mins.

Fastest Limerick train is 1:59. Will be down to 1:45 by the end of the year. My point was the times are competitive. Obviously other modes are faster depending on your exact start and end point. Still the journey times are competitive which was my point regarding modern rail services.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we get back on topic please. Limerick is not on the Athenry to Claremorris section, and travel times up to Dublin are far from the ethos of the Western Rail Corridor as one can get.

Athenry to Claremorris.

Grandeeod

Sam Russell wrote: »

Athenry to Claremorris.

Dead as a doornail.

Back on topic.:D

Muckyboots

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Can we get back on topic please. Limerick is not on the Athenry to Claremorris section, and travel times up to Dublin are far from the ethos of the Western Rail Corridor as one can get.

Athenry to Claremorris.

(Again) Does anyone know how many major & minor road crossing there are between Claremorris & Tuam and how this would affect the journey time? I know you could get held up by the same train 4 times on the N17 on one 5km span. Does this matter to anyone ?

Carawaystick

Luckily there'll be a motorway from Tuam to Galway with no level crossings, cutting out some delays....

spacetweek

As detailed on the Wiki page of historical railways in Ireland, Athenry-Tuam was a heavy rail line but Tuam-Claremorris was only ever a light railway (built to a lower standard).

Amongst other issues, T-C is more winding, has very little over/underbridging, and I don't think the land is still in public ownership. Due to these points alone, reopening of this section is impossible to justify - and that's without taking into account Claremorris's population being too low (4000), and the lack of intermediate towns.

There is no point opening old railway lines unless they are going to be higher standard than before and faster. Many lobby groups think it's a case of replacing the original service. That would be useless because of the rise of the car since the railway's closures, and the fact that 19th Century railways were built to a much lower standard than nowadays, with a lower expectation of top speed.

Athenry-Tuam on the other hand is in much better shape. Line still publicly owned, intersections with roads are bridged, and much straighter. Tuam is up to 8,000 people and heading for the 10k mark soon which would make it the same size as Ballina, another large regional town in the West. We'll know when the 2016 census figures are out. Tuam has a high amount of commuting into nearby congested Galway - an ideal circumstance for rail as this transport mode is best for trying to avoid congested urban areas.

On the downside, we've an overspecced motorway opening soon and fast buses will follow soon. When the Galway Bypass is done these will be even faster. Also, since there are no towns between Athenry and Tuam you would be reopening a railway just for a single town - there would be no side benefits. So it's questionable whether even this reopening would be justifiable.

In my opinion until Tuam gets up to the 15-20k mark in population the motorway and buses will be more than enough. In the meantime, double tracking of Galway out to Oranmore or, even better, Athenry would be far more beneficial as a lot of delays are caused by the single track configuration there.

Grandeeod

spacetweek wrote: »

As detailed on the Wiki page of historical railways in Ireland, Athenry-Tuam was a heavy rail line but Tuam-Claremorris was only ever a light railway (built to a lower standard).

Amongst other issues, T-C is more winding, has very little over/underbridging, and I don't think the land is still in public ownership. Due to these points alone, reopening of this section is impossible to justify - and that's without taking into account Claremorris's population being too low (4000), and the lack of intermediate towns.

There is no point opening old railway lines unless they are going to be higher standard than before and faster. Many lobby groups think it's a case of replacing the original service. That would be useless because of the rise of the car since the railway's closures, and the fact that 19th Century railways were built to a much lower standard than nowadays, with a lower expectation of top speed.

Athenry-Tuam on the other hand is in much better shape. Line still publicly owned, intersections with roads are bridged, and much straighter. Tuam is up to 8,000 people and heading for the 10k mark soon which would make it the same size as Ballina, another large regional town in the West. We'll know when the 2016 census figures are out. Tuam has a high amount of commuting into nearby congested Galway - an ideal circumstance for rail as this transport mode is best for trying to avoid congested urban areas.

On the downside, we've an overspecced motorway opening soon and fast buses will follow soon. When the Galway Bypass is done these will be even faster. Also, since there are no towns between Athenry and Tuam you would be reopening a railway just for a single town - there would be no side benefits. So it's questionable whether even this reopening would be justifiable.

In my opinion until Tuam gets up to the 15-20k mark in population the motorway and buses will be more than enough. In the meantime, double tracking of Galway out to Oranmore or, even better, Athenry would be far more beneficial as a lot of delays are caused by the single track configuration there.

Well done and thank you for advocating the sense that was talked about over 10 years ago.

cgcsb

The money would be much better spent giving Galway a radically improved public transport network, with multiple bus only streets, and p&R facilities on arterial roads. The west needs a functional capital city much more than intra-regional railways.

loyatemu

spacetweek wrote: »

Amongst other issues, T-C is more winding, has very little over/underbridging, and I don't think the land is still in public ownership.

I'm pretty sure it is - even the bit between Claremorris and Collooney is still technically owned by CIE (though bits of it have been "borrowed" by adjoining landowners).

Paddico

https://www.galwaybeo.ie/news/galway-news/new-irish-rail-train-service-9141743

Sam Russell

Mod: This thread is over 7 years since the last previous post. This has been discussed on other threads, so not even news.

Start a new thread if it is worth it.

Thread closed