Donald Trump

Bazzo

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I don't care, he doesn't care, his supporters don't care. The opinion of others do not matter anymore. Libero-Fascists are getting a taste of their own medicine.

Could you do me a favour: go look up the definitions of "liberal" and "fascist" and then come back and describe to me exactly what the **** a "libero-fascist" is.

mariaalice

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I don't care, he doesn't care, his supporters don't care. The opinion of others do not matter anymore. Libero-Fascists are getting a taste of their own medicine.

I find this fascinating Trump supporter are not supporting because of any political allegiance, but supporting him because they preciser him to be getting back at a supposed liberal elite who are imposing on society rights that the vast majority do not support ( who these liberals are is only vaguely defined )

dr.fuzzenstein

Trump cannot win, because the only people who are behind him are angry redneck white trash.
As for anyone with an education or even half a brain, all lefties, some right-wingers or even slightly right of center, Bible bashers, women, Hispanics, Muslims and any other non-white race in America won't vote for him.
It's easy win the Republican nomination, you just have to prove yourself to be the biggest oaf, moron, knuckledragger of the lot and you have it in the bag. But to win the presidency, you have to win over more than just the trailertrash, you have to win over the bible bashers as well and he hasn't done that (thinking back to Bush).

mariaalice

I don't see him as a fascist nor is he a conservative, I don't think he has any real political ideology himself except for a mixture of xenophobia and spite.

swimming in a sea

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Trump cannot win, because the only people who are behind him are angry redneck white trash.
As for anyone with an education or even half a brain, all lefties, some right-wingers or even slightly right of center, Bible bashers, women, Hispanics, Muslims and any other non-white race in America won't vote for him.
It's easy win the Republican nomination, you just have to prove yourself to be the biggest oaf, moron, knuckledragger of the lot and you have it in the bag. But to win the presidency, you have to win over more than just the trailertrash, you have to win over the bible bashers as well and he hasn't done that (thinking back to Bush).

The ramblings of a mad man. Trump might just have a chance if this is the attitude of democrats to their fellow citizens.

Personally I'd prefer him to Clinton.

timmyntc

Bazzo wrote: »

Could you do me a favour: go look up the definitions of "liberal" and "fascist" and then come back and describe to me exactly what the **** a "libero-fascist" is.

I think he meant left-wing rather than liberal - two things which are largely synonymous with each other, although not in this context.

He's right about there being fascists operating under the guise of 'liberal' though - the way democrat protestors try to shut down Trump rallies and silence Trump supporters by force is exactly that - fascism.

And don't get me started on the frighteningly hypocritical Anti-Fa movement

beach_walker

Lads where are ye seeing that Trump pulled out of the debate with Bernie? Looks like it's still on (well being worked on) to me

Trump spokeswoman Hope Hicks said in an email there were no formal plans yet for a debate. But Sanders campaign manager Jeff Weaver told CNN there had been "a few discussions" between the campaigns about the details.

Trump said a debate with Sanders could raise up to $15 million for charity.

"I'd love to debate Bernie, but they'll have to pay a lot of money for it," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-idUSKCN0YH1ST

dr.fuzzenstein

swimming in a sea wrote: »

The ramblings of a mad man. Trump might just have a chance if this is the attitude of democrats to their fellow citizens.

Personally I'd prefer him to Clinton.

Look, the only people voting for Trump are these guys:

http://2.images.southparkstudios.com/blogs/southparkstudios.com/files/2014/04/0806-Took-Jerbs.jpg?quality=0.8

LorMal

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Trump cannot win, because the only people who are behind him are angry redneck white trash.
As for anyone with an education or even half a brain, all lefties, some right-wingers or even slightly right of center, Bible bashers, women, Hispanics, Muslims and any other non-white race in America won't vote for him.
It's easy win the Republican nomination, you just have to prove yourself to be the biggest oaf, moron, knuckledragger of the lot and you have it in the bag. But to win the presidency, you have to win over more than just the trailertrash, you have to win over the bible bashers as well and he hasn't done that (thinking back to Bush).

You sound worried.

Billy86

swimming in a sea wrote: »

The ramblings of a mad man. Trump might just have a chance if this is the attitude of democrats to their fellow citizens.

Personally I'd prefer him to Clinton.

As a matter of interest, which of his policies, stances and proposals would you prefer to Clintons?

Billy86

timmyntc wrote: »

He's right about there being fascists operating under the guise of 'liberal' though - the way democrat protestors try to shut down Trump rallies and silence Trump supporters by force is exactly that - fascism.

fas·cism
ˈfaSHˌizəm/Submit
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms: authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy; More
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

ohnonotgmail

Billy86 wrote: »

fas·cism
ˈfaSHˌizəm/Submit
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms: authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy; More
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

i think the items in bold can be used to describe some of those with a left wing or liberal agenda.

mariaalice

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i think the items in bold can be used to describe some of those with a left wing or liberal agenda.

Not at all the right to free speech is taken very seriously in the USA even what could be construed as hate speech. There has not been any serious attempt to shut Trumps campaign down.

ohnonotgmail

mariaalice wrote: »

Not at all the right to free speech is taken very seriously in the USA even what could be construed as hate speech. There has not been any serious attempt to shut Trumps campaign down.

Taken seriously by the courts for sure but i wasnt talking about the courts.

timmyntc

Billy86 wrote: »

fas·cism
ˈfaSHˌizəm/Submit
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms: authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy; More
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

Questionable definition if it states that fascism definitively is right-wing.

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism...
...One common definition of the term focuses on three concepts: the fascist negations of anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism;

Those people who shut down opposing viewpoints via force are certainly anti-liberalism - i.e. anti freedoms; They primarily target those of a conservative viewpoint - Republicans/Trump supporters. And it remains to be seen if they are against communism also, there isn't exactly much communism in America to rally against..

Billy86

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i think the items in bold can be used to describe some of those with a left wing or liberal agenda.

The problem though is that the definition specifies right wing.

Besides that, Trumps campaign is largely built on a platform of intolerance and is by definition, far closer to fascist than anything seen from the democrats in this cycle.

ohnonotgmail

Billy86 wrote: »

The problem though is that the definition specifies right wing.

the definition you provided yourself says

(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

the "or" is important.

Billy86 wrote: »

Besides that, Trumps campaign is largely built on a platform of intolerance and is by definition, far closer to fascist than anything seen from the democrats in this cycle.

Fascism on one side does not excuse fascism by their opposition.

mariaalice

Billy86 wrote: »

The problem though is that the definition specifies right wing.

Besides that, Trumps campaign is largely built on a platform of intolerance and is by definition, far closer to fascist than anything seen from the democrats in this cycle.

It is been fanned in the media as the liberals verses Trump I don't think that is good for society it give legitimacy to a lot of less that enlighten thinking.

Billy86

timmyntc wrote: »

Questionable definition if it states that fascism definitively is right-wing.

Those people who shut down opposing viewpoints via force are certainly anti-liberalism - i.e. anti freedoms; They primarily target those of a conservative viewpoint - Republicans/Trump supporters. And it remains to be seen if they are against communism also, there isn't exactly much communism in America to rally against..

It's the Oxford dictionaries definition. The reason it is definitively right wing is because it came from the rise of Mussolini & co.

Miriam-Webster lists it as: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Collins English dictionary: any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism

Macmillan dictionary: a very right-wing political system in which the government is very powerful and controls the society and the economy completely, not allowing any opposition. Fascism was practised in Italy and Germany in the 1930s and 40s.

Cambridge dictionary: a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control, and being extremely proud of country and race, and in which political opposition is not allowed

American Heritage dictionary: a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Oxford dictionary: authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

ohnonotgmail

Billy86 wrote: »

It's the Oxford dictionaries definition. The reason it is definitively right wing is because it came from the rise of Mussolini & co.

Miriam-Webster lists it as: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Collins English dictionary: any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism

Macmillan dictionary: a very right-wing political system in which the government is very powerful and controls the society and the economy completely, not allowing any opposition. Fascism was practised in Italy and Germany in the 1930s and 40s.

Cambridge dictionary: a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control, and being extremely proud of country and race, and in which political opposition is not allowed

American Heritage dictionary: a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Oxford dictionary: authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

I am familiar with the origin of term. When it is applied to some of the Trump opposition it is in being used in terms of some of the qualities ascribed to fascist organisations such as

intolerant views or practice.

It is being used in the general sense. they are not being described as Fascists. Note the capital F.

Billy86

mariaalice wrote: »

It is been fanned in the media as the liberals verses Trump I don't think that is good for society it give legitimacy to a lot of less that enlighten thinking.

It's really been pushed as everyone vs Trump, which feeds straight into the line he is going for - establishing an 'us' to get behind him, and an 'other' to be the enemy. Once the 'us' is established, the 'other' can be anyone they choose, and reasons/validity are not needed so long as there is a scapegoat to blame everything on. It's standard mod mentality.

I do fully agree that this kind of discourse is bad though and a huge failing of the (pretty terrible) two-party system where there seems to be a need for a yes/no dynamic on everything (e.g. some things, parties just seem to oppose entirely because the other party support it and for no other reason). The funny thing is, both parties are really just owned by lobby groups and such -- and Trump is no different.

In a perfect world they would completely overhaul their political system, as would many countries, but that's sadly not happening any time soon, leaving us in the meantime with "I like this because you don't, and I don't like that because you do" childish level of discourse that filters down into their supporters (thought at this point, fan-bases might be a better way to describe it).

Billy86

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I am familiar with the origin of term. When it is applied to some of the Trump opposition it is in being used in terms of some of the qualities ascribed to fascist organisations such as


It is being used in the general sense. they are not being described as Fascists. Note the capital F.

There could be a point there, to be honest. The thing is, Trump's campaign is largely built on intolerance - including intolerance of discourse. Just check his fanbase around Boards, you'll see very little talking about policy and a lot of active avoidance of such stuff to focus on Islamophobia, fearmongering over foreigners, and intolerance of anyone different. The Trump supporters who have thought out their reasons for voting for him in depth are rarely heard in no small part because much of the larger crowd has zero interest if it doesn't involve intolerance, fear and anger. This all filters down from the top, and Trump's avoidance of debating with Bernie is an example of it (as was his advocating for violence against non-violent protesters, which is where the attention on his rallies and protesters really kicked off).

The fact is, the victim card suits Trump down to the ground and that is why he plays it so often - it creates a stronger sense of 'us' and 'them', and once you have established 'us' strongly enough, it allows you dehumanise those outside of the 'us' bubble more easily, which in turn creates a stronger sense of 'us' in a vicious cycle of hate. It's a key feature of any strong fascist regime/ideology.

Basically, what we are seeing in terms of the Trump backlash is an intolerance of intolerance.

Catari Jaguar

He began as a democrat, he's been cosying up to the Clintons for years. I'm starting to think he's either a mastermind saboteur (or a plant) with a mission to expose the ridiculous beliefs of Republican extremism, pit them against each other and bring the party down from the inside. He asked Palin to endorse him. Who does that?? Atempting to turn the voters against them (and him) and then have Clinton effortlessly sail to victory. Maybe he wants a female president and all his misogynistic bs was a ruse. Only explanation I can come up with.


Personally, I'm Sanders all the way. But he's ahead of his time (Like AAAPBP here) Still though, his message trickles down - drip drip drip... it all adds up

timmyntc

Billy86 wrote: »

It's the Oxford dictionaries definition. The reason it is definitively right wing is because it came from the rise of Mussolini & co.

Miriam-Webster lists it as: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

'exalts nation and often race above the individual' - that's just hardcore nationalism, not necessarily right-wing.
'forcible suppression of opposition' is what's attempting to be done to the Trump campaign, and indeed most conservative political movements across Europe. The problem is that this has the opposite effect and simply galvanizes supporters and grows support.

Collins English dictionary: any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism

It's a bit strange that German National Socialism, can be conflated with the 'right-wing'. I think somewhere along the way either nationalism or authoritarianism got branded 'right-wing', people would probably brand Stalin or Mao as right-wing if they could, it seems to be a generic bad label nowadays with all the things attributed to it.

The reality is that nationalism is politically agnostic, and authoritarianism exists at both the 'far-left' and 'far-right', and bigotry, racism etc is not a unique/defining characteristic of either side also.

Cambridge dictionary: a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control, and being extremely proud of country and race, and in which political opposition is not allowed

That could apply to the Soviet Union or China equally, but yet they are a far cry away from the far-right no?

dr.fuzzenstein

LorMal wrote: »

You sound worried.

Of course I am! I am capable of rational thought and projecting future events based on currently available information.
It doesn't look good. Bush is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths as well as the destabilisation of the entire middle east, purely by being a complete moron, a warmonger and a profiteer. Not to mention presiding over the biggest economic crash in a hundred years.
Now put a misogynistic psychopath with the added element of having rudimentary intelligence into charge, there is no telling what he might do.

Now all that in itself is bad enough, but what is really bad is the fact that there is millions of knuckledragging, room temperature IQ morons cheering this sh*t on.
It does not speak well for humanity, we are basically barely evolved apes that cheer on the biggest ape with the biggest, reddest behind. It is disappointing that millions of years of evolution has produced something as stupid, childish, violent and dangerous as the human race. I am ashamed to be part of it quite frankly.

LorMal

Some terms being overused here. None of the candidates are fascist - thats ridiculous hyperbole. None of the candidates are actually racist. Some of the comments made by Trump are ignorant, boorish and intolerant.

dr.fuzzenstein

LorMal wrote: »

Some terms being overused here. None of the candidates are fascist - thats ridiculous hyperbole. None of the candidates are actually racist. Some of the comments made by Trump are ignorant, boorish and intolerant.

Well at least I never said fascist!

mayway

He's unevolved.

LorMal

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Of course I am! I am capable of rational thought and projecting future events based on currently available information.
It doesn't look good. Bush is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths as well as the destabilisation of the entire middle east, purely by being a complete moron, a warmonger and a profiteer. Not to mention presiding over the biggest economic crash in a hundred years.
Now put a misogynistic psychopath with the added element of having rudimentary intelligence into charge, there is no telling what he might do.

Now all that in itself is bad enough, but what is really bad is the fact that there is millions of knuckledragging, room temperature IQ morons cheering this sh*t on.
It does not speak well for humanity, we are basically barely evolved apes that cheer on the biggest ape with the biggest, reddest behind. It is disappointing that millions of years of evolution has produced something as stupid, childish, violent and dangerous as the human race. I am ashamed to be part of it quite frankly.

You said Trump cannot win. Why are you worried? (Answer: because you realise Trump can and probably will win!)

dr.fuzzenstein

LorMal wrote: »

You said Trump cannot win. Why are you worried? (Answer: because you realise Trump can and probably will win!)

For the same reason that it is unwise to juggle with a chainsaw or pour petrol over yourself and light a cigarette. If you do it right, you will be OK, but if it goes wrong, the consequences will be dire. Yes, the numbers look better for Hill Dog, but there is a possibility he could win. Why on Earth would anyone want that?
And the utter morons cheering him on will soon realise that they are fiddling whilst Rome is burning.
All I can say is:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uG0Mmy4eOjI/maxresdefault.jpg