Donald Trump

Nervous Wreck · 15-10-2016 8:14pm

oik wrote: »

I'm sceptical of both. I don't have enough information to make up my mind. You seem to think you do. For all I know this guy is the black sheep of the family and would have no problem giving a false statement to rebut his cousin. All I did was post the statement, I never said whether I believed it or not.

Yes,you never said if you believed it or not. You've been pretty careful to imply as much as you could without committing too strongly (quotes below for reference). I don't know where you get the idea that I seem to think I have enough information; I've no idea which of them is lying. But, realistically, it doesn't matter to the broader issue. Maybe he did assault this woman, maybe he didn't. He has almost certainly sexually assaulted women in the past. He can barely get through a sentence without saying something degrading about a woman.

Do I believe this specific woman? I don't know. Do I believe Trump that he's never done it? Not for a god damn second. As well as being a scumbag, he is a sociopath. He's completely unaware of the world outside his own selfish wants. I fully believe that he doesn't believe he did anything wrong; that could be the worst part about it.

oik wrote: »

No he didn't.

"They let you do it"

The entire argument falls apart if you abandon that lie.

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

His accusers using his '' bus tape '' as inspiration for their stories. Funny how their tales tie in perfectly with his words.

oik wrote: »

Very convenient alright.

The main accuser in the NYT article appears to be a family friend of Hillary Clinton. Her sisters and mother have photos with Hillary on their facebooks, not at campaign events either.

oik wrote: »

Here's video of the woman Trump is talking about in the infamous tape.

Such a predator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS766y3OPtQ&feature=youtu.be

oik wrote: »

Evidence that he is a gentleman and a charmer

oik wrote: »

Only if you consider "actual evidence" to be only the evidence which supports your view.

Here's a woman who was misquoted in the last Times hit piece against Trump. It was written by the same authors as the latest one. So we know how credible they are to begin with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_ehidkNhkw

oik wrote: »

The woman who appeared with Gloria Alred is the least credible of all. She was the only one who was in tears which to me is a big red flag. Another red flag is that she was reading a script prepared by GLORIA ALRED of all people.

oik wrote: »

When it was rumoured that Prince died without a will 700 people came forward claiming to be his children.

oik · 15-10-2016 8:14pm

Trump calling for drug testing before the debates.

Great idea considering the guy doesn't drink smoke or even drink coffee.

HellSquirrel · 15-10-2016 8:17pm

This lack of being able to quote function is really annoying.

Oik - Yes, there are liars out there. But the timing is not that peculiar. Several came out long ago and were dismissed, much as you dismiss them, as lying gold-digging whatevers. At least one has stated that the reason she's speaking now is because of the tape and his flat denial that he would ever molest a woman. After all, no-one in the whole, entire world has more respect for women than he does. According to him anyway.

I am neutral in respect to this story. I don't know if they're telling the truth or not, although I do have to give some credence to the possibility, especially with that tape out there. I have also noticed a pattern of Trump using whatever is true for him against his opponents, usually within a week of being accused of it. He's doing it again. This isn't proof, it may just be his method of attack in general, and it just so happens that he's been guilty of fraud, deceit and bone-headed stupidity so far, and the pattern merely looks unfortunate that he's there accusing the Clintons while being under investigation for sexual harassment.

What do we know?
We know that he brags about being able to do anything with women because of his fame.

We know that he happily abuses petty power for sexual interests. He boasted about going behind-stage to watch girls as young as fifteen undressed at his pageants because he was the owner and could get away with it.

We know that there have been allegations of inappropriate behaviour from him as far back as the 1990s.

We know that there is an open case against him regarding the rape of a child, although we should also be aware that there are very dubious aspects to that case.

At that stage, and even ignoring the last point, dismissing anyone who dares accuse him as lying, gold-digging harlots is far too partisan for reason.

PropJoe10 · 15-10-2016 8:17pm

oik wrote: »

Trump calling for drug testing before the debates.

Great idea considering the guy doesn't drink smoke or even drink coffee.

Judging by the way he's been sniffing into the mic during the first two debates, a drug test might not do him any favours.

oik · 15-10-2016 8:19pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Yes,you never said if you believed it or not. You've been pretty careful to imply as much as you could without committing too strongly (quotes below for reference). I don't know where you get the idea that I seem to think I have enough information; I've no idea which of them is lying. But, realistically, it doesn't matter to the broader issue. Maybe he did assault this woman, maybe he didn't. He has almost certainly sexually assaulted women in the past. He can barely get through a sentence without saying something degrading about a woman.

Do I believe this specific woman? I don't know. Do I believe Trump that he's never done it? Not for a god damn second. As well as being a scumbag, he is a sociopath. He's completely unaware of the world outside his own selfish wants. I fully believe that he doesn't believe he did anything wrong; that could be the worst part about it.

You said you wanted me to be rational but you're not holding yourself to your own standard.

I'm dealing with each allegation on its own merits and not finding much to commend them. You're the one who's trying to make a blanket judgement of guilt without identifying a single certified allegation.

As for her cousin's letter, I recall a man in England who accused MPs of raping him as a child was believed and had his story printed in the media until his family came forward and said that he was a liar and a serial fantasist. When someone's own family undermines their credibility we should listen.

oik · 15-10-2016 8:20pm

HellSquirrel wrote: »

much as you dismiss them, as lying gold-digging whatevers

I never said that.

oik · 15-10-2016 8:21pm

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Judging by the way he's been sniffing into the mic during the first two debates, a drug test might not do him any favours.

Do you have any experience with cocaine?

Fleawuss · 15-10-2016 8:29pm

Some woman should grab the Donald by the balls.

Nervous Wreck · 15-10-2016 8:42pm

oik wrote: »

You said you wanted me to be rational but you're not holding yourself to your own standard.

I'm dealing with each allegation on its own merits and not finding much to commend them. You're the one who's trying to make a blanket judgement of guilt without identifying a single certified allegation.

Actually, I'm going by years of seeing Trump on TV being verbally aggressively sexual in his interactions with women. And the fact of him saying that he grabs women by the pussy because he can get away with it.

oik wrote: »

As for her cousin's letter, I recall a man in England who accused MPs of raping him as a child was believed and had his story printed in the media until his family came forward and said that he was a liar and a serial fantasist. When someone's own family undermines their credibility we should listen.

Like when Trump's ex-wife said he raped her?

oik · 15-10-2016 8:45pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Like when Trump's ex-wife said he raped her?

Using false accusations to back up false accusations.

Nervous Wreck · 15-10-2016 8:48pm

oik wrote: »

Using false accusations to back up false accusations.

Sorry, when someone's own family undermines their credibility, we should listen, unless it doesn't suit?

ebbsy · 15-10-2016 8:54pm

They are all reading off a script.

I would love to see their (increased) bank balances.

oik · 15-10-2016 8:55pm

Jessica Leeds says she flew with Trump on a 707. She even made reference to the plane being small when talking to Anderson Cooper on CNN. Braniff airlines say no 707's flying from Dallas to New York in 1979.

oik · 15-10-2016 8:56pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Sorry, when someone's own family undermines their credibility, we should listen, unless it doesn't suit?

Ivana Trump says she wasn't raped by Donald.

learn_more · 15-10-2016 9:02pm

Fleawuss wrote: »

Some woman should grab the Donald by the balls.

Hillary, in the final debate.

Nervous Wreck · 15-10-2016 9:07pm

oik wrote: »

Jessica Leeds says she flew with Trump on a 707. She even made reference to the plane being small when talking to Anderson Cooper on CNN. Braniff airlines say no 707's flying from Dallas to New York in 1979.

Source?

oik wrote: »

Ivana Trump says she wasn't raped by Donald.

Funny that you believe her recanted version; the one that fits your agenda.

Calina · 15-10-2016 9:11pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Source?

Funny that you believe her recanted version; the one that fits your agenda.

Per Airliners.net, it looks like the 707s were retired in 1975 by Braniff. That being said I totally wouldn't be surprised if someone who had no real interest confused a 707 and 727.

That being said, I'm not sure being unable to recall the aircraft type is a killer one way or the other. There are plenty of people who confuse Airbus 320s and Boeing 737s.

Nervous Wreck · 15-10-2016 9:16pm

oik wrote: »

Jessica Leeds says she flew with Trump on a 707. She even made reference to the plane being small when talking to Anderson Cooper on CNN. Braniff airlines say no 707's flying from Dallas to New York in 1979.

Calina wrote: »

Per Airliners.net, it looks like the 707s were retired in 1975 by Braniff. That being said I totally wouldn't be surprised if someone who had no real interest confused a 707 and 727.

That being said, I'm not sure being unable to recall the aircraft type is a killer one way or the other. There are plenty of people who confuse Airbus 320s and Boeing 737s.

Sorry I actually was looking for a source where this woman said she flew in a 707, and where any sort of knowledge of this would come from (e.g., is she an aviator who should have specific, irrefutable knowledge of such things etc). I'm asking because I doubt she ever made such claims and, if she did, could her knowledge of different types of airplanes be such that this would be a damning revelation. Personally, I couldn't tell you any type of plane I've ever been on, and I only know the model of my car because I've to tax and insure it every year. I don't see how this could be damning at all.

oik · 15-10-2016 9:18pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Sorry I actually was looking for a source where this woman said she flew in a 707, and where any sort of knowledge of this would come from (e.g., is she an aviator who should have specific, irrefutable knowledge of such things etc). I'm asking because I doubt she ever made such claims and, if she did, could her knowledge of different types of airplanes be such that this would be a damning revelation. Personally, I couldn't tell you any type of plane I've ever been on, and I only know the model of my car because I've to tax and insure it every year. I don't see how this could be damning at all.

I gave you the source. Her interview with Anderson Cooper. She says it in the first few minutes.

If you haven't actually watched the interview you clearly won't do a modicum of investigation before reaching your conclusions so tbh your opinion on these allegations are irrelevant.

Pro Hoc Vice · 15-10-2016 9:19pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Sorry I actually was looking for a source where this woman said she flew in a 707, and where any sort of knowledge of this would come from (e.g., is she an aviator who should have specific, irrefutable knowledge of such things etc). I'm asking because I doubt she ever made such claims and, if she did, could her knowledge of different types of airplanes be such that this would be a damning revelation. Personally, I couldn't tell you any type of plane I've ever been on, and I only know the model of my car because I've to tax and insure it every year. I don't see how this could be damning at all.

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/10/14/jessica-leeds-intv-anderson-cooper-ac-part-1.cnn

First Up · 15-10-2016 9:27pm

oik wrote:

I'm dealing with each allegation on its own merits and not finding much to commend them. You're the one who's trying to make a blanket judgement of guilt without identifying a single certified allegation.

I'm curious to know what is the vision of the world with a Trump presidency that encourages you to overlook/excuse/deny his (admitted) sexually predatory behaviour?

I mean if he had anything to offer beyond fear and loathing I would be prepared to make allowances in the best Alpha Male spirit.

But he clearly hasn't a clue and outscores even the simpleton GWB in trite certainties and simplistic solutions

What's ths attraction for you? I mean nobody with more than a Primary Cert could be taken in by his rabble rousing nonsense.

I'm genuinely curious.

oik · 15-10-2016 9:29pm

First Up wrote: »

I'm curious to know what is the vision of the world with a Trump presidency that encourages you to overlook/excuse/deny his (admitted) sexually predatory behaviour?

I mean if he had anything to offer beyond fear and loathing I would be prepared to make allowances in the best Alpha Male spirit.

But he clearly hasn't a clue and outscores even the simpleton GWB in trite certainties and simplistic solutions

What's ths attraction for you? I mean nobody with more than a Primary Cert could be taken in by his rabble rousing nonsense.

I'm genuinely curious.

Maybe you're just not as smart as you think you are.

Iceboy · 15-10-2016 9:39pm

Much more substance than the babbling moron De Niro who just spewed insults on camera like a little baby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP-Md-Mit6Q

Nervous Wreck · 15-10-2016 9:42pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/10/14/jessica-leeds-intv-anderson-cooper-ac-part-1.cnn

oik wrote: »

I gave you the source. Her interview with Anderson Cooper. She says it in the first few minutes.

If you haven't actually watched the interview you clearly won't do a modicum of investigation before reaching your conclusions so tbh your opinion on these allegations are irrelevant.

My opinion on these allegations is of course irrelevant. As are yours and most people's in this thread. That's not really the point, is it? I ask again, what qualifies this woman to name the type of plane she was on to the point of her being mistaken throwing doubt on her claim? She concedes that she's not even entirely sure where she was flying from and she's supposed to be held accountable for not knowing what type of plane it was? Balderdash.

oik · 15-10-2016 9:44pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

My opinion on these allegations is of course irrelevant. As are yours and most people's in this thread. That's not really the point, is it? I ask again, what qualifies this woman to name the type of plane she was on to the point of her being mistaken throwing doubt on her claim? She concedes that she's not even entirely sure where she was flying from and she's supposed to be held accountable for not knowing what type of plane it was? Balderdash.

She offered the information and it turned out to be false. Draw your own inferences.

First Up · 15-10-2016 9:46pm

oik wrote:

Maybe you're just not as smart as you think you are.

I'm certain that is true but it doesn't mean I'm not smarter than you.

long range shooter · 15-10-2016 9:47pm

To be honest i dont now whos worse of the two.

Pro Hoc Vice · 15-10-2016 9:48pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

My opinion on these allegations is of course irrelevant. As are yours and most people's in this thread. That's not really the point, is it? I ask again, what qualifies this woman to name the type of plane she was on to the point of her being mistaken throwing doubt on her claim? She concedes that she's not even entirely sure where she was flying from and she's supposed to be held accountable for not knowing what type of plane it was? Balderdash.

I agree with your view I simply responded to your request for a link. She is very clear that it was over 35 years ago and she was unsure of many of the details that of course is something a person may give weight too.

But as I said a few days ago both Bill and Donald have never been convicted of any sexual assault and on that basis both are innocent of any crime. I do think Donald's own words on the subject are disturbing to say the very least.

Nervous Wreck · 15-10-2016 9:49pm

oik wrote: »

She offered the information and it turned out to be false. Draw your own inferences.

I have done. My summation is that a person with no background in aviation should probably be taken lightly when they mention the model of aircraft they were travelling on 35 years ago. A much more reasonable summation than "this woman was wrong about the airplane she was on therefore she's lying about being mauled by a man who has been revealed on video saying that he mauls women."

Nervous Wreck · 15-10-2016 9:51pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I agree with your view I simply responded to your request for a link. She is very clear that it was over 35 years ago and she was unsure of many of the details that of course is something a person may give weight too.

But as I said a few days ago both Bill and Donald have never been convicted of any sexual assault and on that basis both are innocent of any crime. I do think Donald's own words on the subject are disturbing to say the very least.

Apologies, I was just trying to clarify my intent, not deride your response.

Donald Trump

Comments