Roberto Martinez Sacked

MayoSalmon

Joshua J wrote: »

Jesus maybe I do because I cannot fathom ANY supporter rathering an FA Cup to premiership survival. It's bonkers to me but if thats the prevailing attitude so be it I think it's nuts.

Aston Villa have basically been a non-entity since Premier League formation...

FA Cup Win > 20 Years Premier League nothingness!

Joshua J

MayoSalmon wrote: »

You could say the exact same of the Aston Villa fans.

I'm sure they would of rather won the FA Cup against Arsenal last season than that or this years premier league survival no?!

I'd say they'd absolutely sack off winning the FA cup for premiership survival yeah. Maybe the majority wouldn't but I just don't understand that. The premiership is where it's at.

loyatemu

meh - there's an argument that the Premier League is overrated if you're a smaller club. Where's the fun for the likes of Watford or Palace in slogging it out each year, losing more than half of your games with your ambitions stretching no further than a comfortable mid-table finish. The vast riches all end up in the pockets of unscrupulous owners or mercenary players and agents.

3 teams have to go down each season, at least if they go down in good shape they can look forward to a season where they mostly win and have something tangible to fight for. Win a cup (as a smaller club) and you have an achievement you'll always remember.

(obviously Leicester this year is a pretty big counter-argument, but I doubt I'll ever see anything like that again).

Joshua J

So what you guys are saying is, if you offered Sunderland fans the choice now, premier league safety which the have achieved or an FA Cup win but they get relegated the majority would choose the FA cup and relegation?. Can't fathom it, the idea is ridiculous to me.

bucketybuck

Joshua J wrote: »

Jesus maybe I do because I cannot fathom ANY supporter rathering an FA Cup to premiership survival. It's bonkers to me but if thats the prevailing attitude so be it I think it's nuts.

Why are you a fan? Seriously, whats in it for you? Exactly what is the enjoyment a fan gets from a club just surviving in the premier league, what is the point of them being there?

GLaDOS

I'd imagine if the PL wasn't worth so much money winning the cup would get a higher priority. Same way clubs might prioritise qualifying for the CL over the cup.

Money over trophies, that's modern day football.

bucketybuck

Joshua J wrote: »

So what you guys are saying is, if you offered Sunderland fans the choice now, premier league safety which the have achieved or an FA Cup win but they get relegated the majority would choose the FA cup and relegation?. Can't fathom it, the idea is ridiculous to me.

The context is that Sunderland could easily end up relegated next season anyway, or if they do survive they will still just tick along in the lower reaches for another few seasons being an also ran. Thats what you are swapping the glory for, swapping actually winning something for the chance to continue winning nothing.

eagle eye

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why are you a fan? Seriously, whats in it for you? Exactly what is the enjoyment a fan gets from a club just surviving in the premier league, what is the point of them being there?

Blackburn Rovers fan here. I was always of the opinion that the Premier league was more important than cup games. Obviously if you make it to the semi-final of a cup then it becomes a big thing for the club but up to that point I'd rather put out a second team and have the first team fresh for the matches either side of that game.

I want my team playing against the best teams in the country and having a little hope that they might sneak a Europa league spot if we have a really good season.

I would never take an FA Cup success and relegation. I'd take survival and no cup success every single time.

Joshua J

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why are you a fan? Seriously, whats in it for you? Exactly what is the enjoyment a fan gets from a club just surviving in the premier league, what is the point of them being there?

To play against the best teams week in week out. To get the elite players and best coaches playing at your club to strive to finish as high as possible and test yourself against the best in Europe to win major honours. Can't do that in the championship.

average_runner

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why are you a fan? Seriously, whats in it for you? Exactly what is the enjoyment a fan gets from a club just surviving in the premier league, what is the point of them being there?

The enjoyment is the fans get to see some of the best players in the world playing, going to the championship, its a level down.

FA cup is a trophy but it won't save a club from financial ruin, staying in the top flight will!!

wally79

Leicester should have focussed on the cup last year instead of fighting to avoid relegation

What's the point of scrapping to stay in the PL?

POKERKING

Trophy over staying in the league all day long........I enjoyed City(my team) more in the championship and league more than i did slogging in the lower reaches of the premier league(mind you Stuart pearce would do that to you) so lower league isnt all that bad.

Football for me is all about trophies, i had never even seen city in a semi final up until a few years ago, i assumed id die without us having ever won a trophy which saddened me, i certainly didnt feel lucky to see us scrape by in the premier league for a few years.

bucketybuck

Joshua J wrote: »

To play against the best teams week in week out. To get the elite players and best coaches playing at your club to strive to finish as high as possible and test yourself against the best in Europe to win major honours. Can't do that in the championship.

To win. As you say yourself. Yet you would pass up on winning for something else, its not rational.

Its obviously not a black and white issue but regardless of what Leicester did, for the vast majority of clubs life will be marked by season after season of just playing games and finishing as an also ran in whatever league they are in. They can aspire to more and thats fine, but the reality is that for most clubs they won't get many chances to win silverware, just look at lots of big clubs like Newcastle for examples of this.

And yet some fans would pass up on guaranteed silverware just so they can stay in a particular division. Its your opinion, but I can't help but be bemused by it.

By the way I am a United fan and I would take the FA cup over 4th place in a heartbeat.

K-9

IIRC Wigan got relegated after the final, could be wrong, so it wasn't an and or situation.

If a team ends up in a Cup S/F they are going to take it seriously enough though, even "big teams". Taking a bad hammering can be bad for morale.

Joshua J

bucketybuck wrote: »

To win. As you say yourself. Yet you would pass up on winning for something else, its not rational.

Its obviously not a black and white issue but regardless of what Leicester did, for the vast majority of clubs life will be marked by season after season of just playing games and finishing as an also ran in whatever league they are in. They can aspire to more and thats fine, but the reality is that for most clubs they won't get many chances to win silverware, just look at lots of big clubs like Newcastle for examples of this.

And yet some fans would pass up on guaranteed silverware just so they can stay in a particular division. Its your opinion, but I can't help but be bemused by it.

By the way I am a United fan and I would take the FA cup over 4th place in a heartbeat.

That's not the choice though. It's the FA Cup and relegation over survival. You wouldn't take that deal as a United fan no way, but you'd expect other teams to jump at the chance?.

Billy86

NukaCola wrote: »

Apart from his first season he actually brought them backwards.

Return of Moyes?

What's funny is the same is true of Wigan. Now granted there he did win an FA Cup and had diminishing financial investment as his tenure went on, but they still slid further down the table with him and eventually got relegated (which hasn't gone well, they only got back up to Championship in the last few weeks).

K-9

How is relegation after he left his fault? Ken Early made that point too, I don't get the logic.

Was Mick McCarthy responsible for Wolves dropping to League 1?

wally79

Billy86 wrote: »

What's funny is the same is true of Wigan. Now granted there he did win an FA Cup and had diminishing financial investment as his tenure went on, but they still slid further down the table with him and eventually got relegated (which hasn't gone well, they only got back up to Championship in the last few weeks).

It all stems back to his defensive problems which don't register under his ideas of how football should be played given some of his comments around not worrying about clean sheets and the reports from players that he doesn't see practicing set pieces as time well spent (which considering we conceded from 3 against sunderland is ridiculous)

As I said earlier wigans goals conceded went from being in the 40's in the prem before he joined to 60's and 70's during his tenure

Evertons wasnt so dramatic but still went from 40s to 50s barring his first year which many put down to moyes defensive structures he has since managed to pull apart.

Billy86

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Wigan were better with Bruce as manager. Finished in higher positions and spent more or less same in the transfer market. If we consider Net spend then Bruce is much better.

Not a defense of Martinez who I have found overrated since the last year or two of that Wigan spell, but I had the same impression back when Everton got Martinez and was corrected on it.

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/wigan-athletic/english-football-teams/wigan-athletic-transfers

Steve Bruce, 2007-09
Total spend: 27.1mn (13.55mn/yr)
Net spend: 650k (325k/yr)

Martinez, 2009-13
Total spend: 32mn (8mn/yr)
Net spend: -11.65mn (-2.9mn/yr)

Can't find the figures but I'm pretty sure it was also pointed out to me at the time that their wage bill had dropped fairly significantly in that time, too. I guess it's just because it's so much easier to find details on, but even though I'm guilty of it in this post ( ) not nearly enough stock is put into wage bills when talking about how much clubs spend on the squad.

Utopia Parkway

I liked the way Dave Whelan called him Robertooooooooo.

wally79

POKERKING wrote: »

Trophy over staying in the league all day long........I enjoyed City(my team) more in the championship and league more than i did slogging in the lower reaches of the premier league(mind you Stuart pearce would do that to you) so lower league isnt all that bad.

Football for me is all about trophies, i had never even seen city in a semi final up until a few years ago, i assumed id die without us having ever won a trophy which saddened me, i certainly didnt feel lucky to see us scrape by in the premier league for a few years.

Would city be where they are now without fighting to stay in the prem league?

There were many poor finishes before the takeover, would you have swapped the 16th in 2004 or the 15th in 2006 for an FA cup.

Would the Abu dhabi group have looked at someone else then?

Billy86

K-9 wrote: »

How is relegation after he left his fault? Ken Early made that point too, I don't get the logic.

Was Mick McCarthy responsible for Wolves dropping to League 1?

I'm not saying it was his fault, I'm saying the initial relegation sent them on a tailspin backwards that they are still struggling to get out of. Of course then you have to wonder if that makes Martinez look better or worse in hindsight, as the guy after him also would have struggled but was doing so with many of Martinez's purchases and the build he had left the squad in (like someone said in reverse a few pages back, re the 'sweet spot' Martinez had initially at Everton due to Moyes having instilled a solid defensive setup for so long, prior to his arrival).

I'm genuinely curious as to whether Wigan fans would have preferred Premiership football the last few years, and safe(ish) 15-10th placed finishes or the FA Cup, given they were such a small club for so long, and never won anything else of significance (just lower league titles and some lower/non-league cups).

Dempsey

No surprise that Martinez got sacked. He turned a team that was greater than the sum of its parts into a running joke

No chance of Koeman going to Everton and de Boer is a huge risk. Pellegrini would be a shrewd signing for Everton.

K-9

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm not saying it was his fault, I'm saying the initial relegation sent them on a tailspin backwards that they are still struggling to get out of. Of course then you have to wonder if that makes Martinez look better or worse in hindsight, as the guy after him also would have struggled but was doing so with many of Martinez's purchases and the build he had left the squad in (like someone said in reverse a few pages back, re the 'sweet spot' Martinez had initially at Everton due to Moyes having instilled a solid defensive setup for so long, prior to his arrival).

I'm genuinely curious as to whether Wigan fans would have preferred Premiership football the last few years, and safe(ish) 15-10th placed finishes or the FA Cup, given they were such a small club for so long, and never won anything else of significance (just lower league titles and some lower/non-league cups).

But unless you follow Wigan, who knows what else happened afterwards? Maybe poor signings after Martinez, McCarthy and a couple of their best players left?

That sounds like somebody believing Dave Whelan spin tbh, twasn't me, twas Roberto.

CSF

Not a hope would I have taken a cup over Premier League survival. Unfortunately neither were possible, but if you could have offered me one I'd have taken survive in a second.

My feeling is that the majority of people who feel the other way would be people who would never have to worry about that scenario in the first place.

LiamoSail

Surprised at how highly rated DeBour appears to be. I don't follow the Dutch league, so all I can see of his record is a few titles in a league he should be winning and failure in Europe.

CSF

CSF wrote: »

Not a hope would I have taken a cup over Premier League survival. Unfortunately neither were possible, but if you could have offered me one I'd have taken survive in a second.

My feeling is that the majority of people who feel the other way would be people who would never have to worry about that scenario in the first place.

A chance of a trophy such as the FA Cup for a team like Wigan might not come around for 100 years. Promotion will come much sooner.

For match going Wigan fans I'd say quite a lot of them would take the trophy tbh.

Billy86

K-9 wrote: »

But unless you follow Wigan, who knows what else happened afterwards? Maybe poor signings after Martinez, McCarthy and a couple of their best players left?

That sounds like somebody believing Dave Whelan spin tbh, twasn't me, twas Roberto.

That's the thing though, I am not blaming Martinez for their subsequent relegation and I've already said the diminishing investment would have made them hard to keep up in general in the Premiership, but the fact is he got them relegated and with a very poor defense.

I didn't know Whelan went about putting so much blame on Martinez though? Not saying he didn't, just saying I must not have noticed it. He hired Owen Coyle who I remember being more attack-oriented than defensive right after, only to sack him in December (14th place) and go for Uwe Rosler... they finished in the playoff spots.

The next season they had 17 points in 17 games, sacked Rosler, replaced him with Malkey McKay, things got worse (22pts in 29 games) and down they went. This time ironically, because of a terrible inability to score (their defense was poor but not woeful).

Billy86

CSF wrote: »

Not a hope would I have taken a cup over Premier League survival. Unfortunately neither were possible, but if you could have offered me one I'd have taken survive in a second.

My feeling is that the majority of people who feel the other way would be people who would never have to worry about that scenario in the first place.

Actually my feeling is that you would be more likely to have fans of the far smaller clubs like Wigan opt for the FA Cup over survival. At the time I remember a lot of Wigan fans (not sure if the majority though) were quite happy to take the FA Cup over survival, but I'm guessing they were not expecting a second relegation just two years later.

Corholio

I've never got the 'FA cup over the relegation' thing to be honest. Relegation can have huge consequences to a club, especially to one like Wigan that already struggle in the area for support. It's fine to say you won the FA cup for a while I guess, but what does it mean today? Staying in the premier league is more important imo.

8-10

LiamoSail wrote: »

Surprised at how highly rated DeBour appears to be. I don't follow the Dutch league, so all I can see of his record is a few titles in a league he should be winning and failure in Europe.

Ajax hadn't won the league in 7 years before he took over then he won 4 in a row. Wouldn't have happened without him. You're only saying he should have won them because he did. When he was appointed there's no way you'd have said he should be winning the league

Paully D

CSF wrote: »

Not a hope would I have taken a cup over Premier League survival. Unfortunately neither were possible, but if you could have offered me one I'd have taken survive in a second.

My feeling is that the majority of people who feel the other way would be people who would never have to worry about that scenario in the first place.

Agree 100% with all of this as a Sunderland fan.

In my experience (apart from the fans who would never have to worry about it anyway, as you rightly point out) it's only fans of clubs who have won a cup and gone down in the same season that ever say that they would rather have won the cup than stayed up, as they are just trying to convince themselves. Yet they'd give their right hand to get back to the Premier League as they know deep down that that's the holy grail.

LiamoSail

8-10 wrote: »

Ajax hadn't won the league in 7 years before he took over then he won 4 in a row. Wouldn't have happened without him. You're only saying he should have won them because he did. When he was appointed there's no way you'd have said he should be winning the league

Honestly I wouldn't have known they hadn't won it in seven years. At the same time though he presumably had the biggest budget in the country and neither PSV nor Feynord have been particularly strong of late, while he underachieved in Euope constantly.

I'm not saying he did a bad job at Ajax, as I said I don't follow the league, just from the outside it looks as if he was clawing on the heels of average.

CSF

LiamoSail wrote: »

Honestly I wouldn't have known they hadn't won it in seven years. At the same time though he presumably had the biggest budget in the country and neither PSV nor Feynord have been particularly strong of late, while he underachieved in Euope constantly.

I'm not saying he did a bad job at Ajax, as I said I don't follow the league, just from the outside it looks as if he was clawing on the heels of average.

Eredivisie isn't really a league where one team ever has a divine right to win it. A bit more like Spain where there are 2 super powers and a few lesser challengers who pop up every few years with a legitimate title challenge.

8-10

LiamoSail wrote: »

Honestly I wouldn't have known they hadn't won it in seven years. At the same time though he presumably had the biggest budget in the country and neither PSV nor Feynord have been particularly strong of late, while he underachieved in Euope constantly.

I'm not saying he did a bad job at Ajax, as I said I don't follow the league, just from the outside it looks as if he was clawing on the heels of average.

Fair enough but budget wise it's not really relevant. The best players were youth players some of which are first teamers now despite being 14 or 15 when he took over. Look at the best players and their transfer fees and you'll see it wasn't all about budget. That's the reality for Ajax, if players are attracted by high wages then they won't even look at Holland. The main asset for decades now has been the academy which remains arguably the best in Europe.

But you could look at a team doing well in a poor league and awful in Europe and come to the conclusion that he's Ronny Deila when in reality it's not a good measure of a coach. He's at the start of his coaching career and has everything ahead of him. Ajax was a natural stepping stone but one he jumped on and did very very well at. Martin Jol had left the team in pretty poor standing finishing 4th before he took over. I actually think Everton isn't a big enough club for him and he should have held out for the Arsenal job coming up

Laois_Man

dfx- wrote: »

It's a very tough job dealing with the level of unjustified expectation at Everton. It's not worth taking a sideways step imo.

What are these unjustified expectations exactly?

Laois_Man

Lumbo wrote: »

Talk of Jose to Everton is laughable

Is it? He wants to stay in the PL and if Man Utd isn't offered to him, what are his other options in the PL?

If Everton have a huge pot of money to spend, which they may well do, is it not a huge opportunity for him to again show how good he is?

Lumbo

Laois_Man wrote: »

Is it? He wants to stay in the PL and if Man Utd isn't offered to him, what are his other options in the PL?

If Everton have a huge pot of money to spend, which they may well do, is it not a huge opportunity for him to again show how good he is?

Mourinho and/or his agent is using Everton to engineer movement elsewhere. It's not the first time he's done it. He wants the United job.

The maths don't add up for me either. Jose earns 15m a year. Everton without Champions League football or the means can't afford a luxury like him. Whatever Moshiri's intentions for the club, I doubt he's going to spend that much of his own fortune.

Paully D

On the whole cup vs survival debate - from speaking to fellow Sunderland fans, it seems to me that the older generation would take the the cup while the younger generation would prefer staying up. Interesting.

Moist Bread

Paully D wrote: »

On the whole cup vs survival debate - from speaking to fellow Sunderland fans, it seems to me that the older generation would take the the cup while the younger generation would prefer staying up. Interesting.

I'm not sure if it's that interesting. 20 years ago the cup meant a lot and nowsadays not so much. Makes sense they would think that way.

POKERKING

Paully D wrote: »

On the whole cup vs survival debate - from speaking to fellow Sunderland fans, it seems to me that the older generation would take the the cup while the younger generation would prefer staying up. Interesting.

I'm young, however in twenty years time you'd remember the Sunderland fa cup winning teaM, of 2016 you won't remember the players that got you 17-15 every year in 20 years time.

All I wanted in my lifetime was one trophy, it seemed it would never happen and I'm so glad it did, there was no fun in surviving for years. As said before I prefer winning in championship to mostly losing and playing ****e football to survive in prem(from city pov).

POKERKING

wally79 wrote: »

Would city be where they are now without fighting to stay in the prem league?

There were many poor finishes before the takeover, would you have swapped the 16th in 2004 or the 15th in 2006 for an FA cup.

Would the Abu dhabi group have looked at someone else then?

Whilst true, that's a very different question. If the choice was a cup or a few years surviving and being bought out down the line by a billionaire then of course i take that. But if it's just a case of mere survival or winning a cup then I go cup all day long. If winning cup and being relegated twice possible like say Portsmouth is the option then survival I would prefer survival.

LuckyLloyd

Players making a statement of sorts...

LuckyLloyd

The 'Cup vs Relegation' debate highlights a huge issue at the core of the current English league structure (obfuscated by Leicester's fairytale season mind), and one shared in other leagues around Europe no doubt. You can chase the promised land all the way up to the Premiership but once you get there mid table malaise is the most you can hope for barring some extraordinary outlier season like this one. When most managers / club owners / (and apparently) fans see no value to the cups on top of that well...what's the point?

I hear people saying that 'oh well the objective is still to play the best clubs and be at the highest level' and it sounds logical - but we do follow sport for entertainment. Consistent mid table finishes would surely dull the senses after a couple of years. I remember Charlton being quite sick of Curbishley when he left in the end. His departure didn't work out for any of the parties involved, but the urge to just change and give whatever else a look is for me a very natural and human urge - people just get bored.