What the ASTI and the TUI should have done with regard to talks?

political analyst

I'm aware that the issue of negotiation between the teachers' union movement and the Department of Education has been complicated because of the fact that Jan O'Sullivan was a caretaker education minister.

However, since Richard Bruton has taken over as education minister, the ASTI and the TUI should have waited to seek meetings with Bruton instead of meeting Department civil servants in order to discuss issues with regard to secondary education, i.e. the holistic aspect of secondary school education, CP hours.

The unions should make clear the importance of the holistic aspect of secondary school education and find out the reason for the lack of flexibility with regard to the extra hours.

As a former enterprise minister, Bruton might be sympathetic to the idea of teachers being allowed to act on their own initiative, i.e. extra-curricular activities.

Did the unions seek meetings with Jan O'Sullivan when she was education minister?

seavill

If the vote is successful there won't be any more hours so won't need to ask him that question

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

However, since Richard Bruton has taken over as education minister, the ASTI and the TUI should have waited to seek meetings with Bruton instead of meeting Department civil servants in order to discuss issues with regard to secondary education, i.e. the holistic aspect of secondary school education, CP

Given that schools need to have their calendar for the coming school year planned out before breaking up for the summer, and that CP hours are (hopefully that will be 'were') a major factor in this, then it wasn't really an option for the ASTI to wait for a minister to be appointed.
Being an ASTI member, I can't give any insight on the approach the TUI have taken to the rejection of the LRA. But from an outsider's perspective, it seems that union's executive are very anxious to avoid any conflict, in the secondary sector anyway, based on the 'deal' they claim to have won and are endorsing.

deiseindublin

It's no deal coillsaille, that's for sure, nothing added except a few flexible CP hours, that should be gone anyway.

coillsaille

That's all that's been thrown the way of second level TUI members alright deise, 3 extra hours that teachers might be allowed to actually use semi-productively instead of being the complete waste of time that the other 25 hours are. That and some soothing words about potential reviews.
It isn't a deal. TUI members are simply being told they have to vote on LRA again and that they better give the right answer this time.

political analyst

coillsaille wrote: »

Being an ASTI member, I can't give any insight on the approach the TUI have taken to the rejection of the LRA. But from an outsider's perspective, it seems that union's executive are very anxious to avoid any conflict, in the secondary sector anyway, based on the 'deal' they claim to have won and are endorsing.

Do you have a theory about the reason for that?

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

Do you have a theory about the reason for that?

Not being a TUI member I couldn't really say. Perhaps they got rattled by a bullish DES during the negotiations. Maybe the absence of a Minister, apart from a caretaker who the DES knew was no longer in government, led to civil servants in the department, such as the general secretary, deciding to use the free reign he had to try and stamp the unions into submission once and for all. He directly interfered in an ASTI ballot by issuing threats, and he obviously took a similar approach to the 'negotiations' with the TUI, given that they're asking their members to vote again on LRA despite that it was resoundingly rejected already.

Also, there's mention in another thread here that a member of the TUI executive said at a branch meeting they had received legal advice that any legal challenge to FEMPI will fail and that the ASTI is doomed to fail. Maybe this rattled them. Legal advice can vary greatly, I'm sure the ASTI sought some before announcing the intention to mount the challenge.
Perhaps the TUI want to focus on upcoming disputes in the third level sector and don't want to be fighting on too many fronts. If that's the case it's a further reminder as to why we need one union for all second level teachers.
But all the above is just speculation on my part.

evolving_doors

coillsaille wrote: »

That's all that's been thrown the way of second level TUI members alright deise, 3 extra hours that teachers might be allowed to actually use semi-productively instead of being the complete waste of time that the other 25 hours are. That and some soothing words about potential reviews.
It isn't a deal. TUI members are simply being told they have to vote on LRA again and that they better give the right answer this time.

I think though folk shouldn't even be pondering that question. We all have plenty of work to be getting on with, CP or no CP.

coillsaille

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think though folk shouldn't even be pondering that question. We all have plenty of work to be getting on with, CP or no CP.

Very true. A colleague said to me recently that the rest of the public sector have to put in extra hours so teachers are not going to get away with not doing them. What he and many others are missing is that teachers regularly work extra hours outside of school time and always have done, be it correcting, preparing or extra curricular activities.

political analyst

coillsaille wrote: »

Very true. A colleague said to me recently that the rest of the public sector have to put in extra hours so teachers are not going to get away with not doing them. What he and many others are missing is that teachers regularly work extra hours outside of school time and always have done, be it correcting, preparing or extra curricular activities.

So why wouldn't the Department let the extra work already being done by teachers with regard to curricular work, i.e. continuous professional development, be regarded as extra work under the Croke Park deal?

Inclusion of extra-curricular work in the CP hours wouldn't be feasible because the fact that it's voluntary means that not all teachers do it. Besides, inclusion of it in the CP hours would take the fun out of it because then it wouldn't be voluntary anymore.

political analyst

seavill wrote: »

If the vote is successful there won't be any more hours so won't need to ask him that question

If withdrawal from the CP hours takes place there will still have to be talks eventually. A campaign of industrial action is like a war - it ends eventually.