looking for bank statements and private info

dr.fuzzenstein

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

No chance would I give this level of information to effectively some randomer that I probably will never see unless there's an issue with the property. A work reference, reference from previous LL and deposit should be enough.

If LL's are that concerned about their "investment" that the above isn't good enough then maybe landlording just isn't for them.

Flip it around.. how does a tenant know the LL has the ability to pay the mortgage and they won't get a letter through the door telling them the bank is turfing them out, or some vulture fund has bought the place and is hiking the rent significantly.

Yes, i think it may not be unreasonable to demand some paperwork from the landlord, are they the registered owner, are they who they say they are, do they pay tax, copies of business accounts and maybe garda vetting to make sure you're not renting from some tax-dodging fly-by-night that might default, you'll end up on the street and out of pocket as regards deposit. And the deposit should be lodged with a neutral agency anyway, because otherwise its just beer money for the landlord.

_Kaiser_

Graham wrote: »

You are under no obligation to provide a potential landlord with anything at all.

Likewise, nothing at all to stop the landlord moving straight onto the next potential tenant.

LL's can't have it both ways is the point. Sure they want to minimise their risk, but without giving the tenant the same level of assurances - who at the end has far more to lose as it may be the LL's investment, but it'll be the tenant's home.

If a LL wants a professional reliable tenant it's not unreasonable that they be expected to behave in a similar manner.

LiamoSail

I think it's a reasonable enough request given the risks a LL must take.

I'd want to see that a potential tenant can afford the property and is diligent in paying bills on time.

It seems reasonable enough to request proof of this, particularly given the potential tenant is under no obligation to provide anything.

I don't rent, but if I did, this wouldn't be an issue for me tbh

Baby01032012

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yes, i think it may not be unreasonable to demand some paperwork from the landlord, are they the registered owner, are they who they say they are, do they pay tax, copies of business accounts and maybe garda vetting to make sure you're not renting from some tax-dodging fly-by-night that might default, you'll end up on the street and out of pocket as regards deposit. And the deposit should be lodged with a neutral agency anyway, because otherwise its just beer money for the landlord.

You can demand all you want, you would have no right to the information. The financial affairs of the landlord are not the tenants business. The latter re deposit j agree with, however the consequences of a bad tenant for a landlord are loss of income, unable to remove tenant, damage to a valuable asset. It's a business for a landlord so they need to ensure security of that investment and security of the person they turn the investment over to. For a tenant a bad landlord, they can still take to the Prtb, they have security of tenure, they can give valid notice to terminate the lease.

MarkAnthony

It comes down to there being no proper credit referencing system in Ireland.

I ask for this sort of info not quite to this degree, but proof of income etc. However as I've said before I've no problem with it being a two way street and if the tenant wants to see my profit and loss account on the apartment they're welcome to it. It's reasonable to expect to see proof the mortgage is up to date IMHO. If anyone want to know if I subscribe to brazzers on a regular basis then they're quite welcome to know that too.

LL/Agents/Tenants are simply trying to protect themselves. People love to create little issues for themselves on principle. Frankly it's a bit mad considering if anyone really wants your personal info it's usually easily accessed. The majority of people would put their liufe stories up on social media anyway.

Frankly if you don't like it, it's your right, it's my and others right not to rent to you.

April 73

That's exactly the point. Provide the info or don't, the choice is up to you as a prospective tenant in a difficult market.

newacc2015

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yes, i think it may not be unreasonable to demand some paperwork from the landlord, are they the registered owner, are they who they say they are, do they pay tax, copies of business accounts and maybe garda vetting to make sure you're not renting from some tax-dodging fly-by-night that might default, you'll end up on the street and out of pocket as regards deposit. And the deposit should be lodged with a neutral agency anyway, because otherwise its just beer money for the landlord.

You demand what you like from the landlord. But in this market you have no upper hand with the landlord. You can ask what you like from the LL, but he will say no and move onto the other 30 potential tenants looking at the same property. Have you ever seen the tax defaulters list? There is a fair better chance your GP is on it, than your landlord. In fact most tax dodgers are in the medical industry and not LL's. Someone tax affairs are not your concern.

You must not be too familiar with the rental industry. That horror story you have made up is not in anyway the norm. The UK has a deposit protection scheme, about 30% of LL's don't use it. I looked at the facts on the PRTB website before. Out of 140k tenancies a year. Not even 0.31% of all tenacies had their deposits unfairly withheld. The PRTB are going to hire dozens of people prevent a few hundred cases of unfairly withheld deposits which is insane

In fact the PRTB has more disputes from LL's over tenants not paying rent

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, a landlord is a business. Its the same as buying something of eBay, you'd want to be completely loola to buy something expensive off a seller that has negative or no feedback.
The same should go for landlords, the problem in this country is that a lot of them are accidental landlords and even more are chancers. Would anyone pay for a professional service as vitally important as the roof over their head from some fly by night cowboy who might be minutes away from foreclosure or has already signed the property over to a vulture fund and they're preparing to turf your out as the ink dries on the rental contract? And no way to check them out?
Quite frankly I would prefer to rent from a larger, professional company who specialise in large scale rentals, who can back up their operations with paperwork and are accountable, rather than renting a shabby flat in Rathmines of some random bloke who suddenly wants to see my birth cert, doctor's report and bank statements.
A lot of landlords will now howl "we can demand what we want and we don't want to be landlords anyway!". Yes, well the rental market here needs a massive shake up. Maybe larger corporations buying lots of rental space is a good thing. They have the financial power to survive on lower profit margins, have service contracts with maintenance companies and the necessary staff to be on top of the paperwork, unlike Mr Random, who works it out on his kitchen table with a calculator and a pencil.
It goes both ways indeed.

usernamegoes

SteM wrote: »

Love it when people start shouting about the data protection act. Why would this be an issue under data protection? The landlord has asked for this information. It's up to the OP whether the he gives it or not. There's no law being broken asking for the information though.

SteM wrote: »

No one forcing them to hand the information over though. Everyone is welcome to walk away after being asked for the information.

The data protection acts certainly have a role here. This type of information should be be asked for by a landlord or their representatives to prospective tenants.

MarkAnthony

usernamegoes wrote: »

The data protection acts certainly have a role here. This type of information should be be asked for by a landlord or their representatives to prospective tenants.

While the data protection act may have a role to play there is certainly nothing to stop an estate agent registering as a data what not and complying with the acts, just as an EA would be able, if we had one, to credit check prospective tenants.

The issue is, as usual, that Ireland is the wild west in relation to these things and when the legislature can't even be arsed to do what it normally does - lift legislation from our neighbouring jurisdiction - we end up with everyone freelancing.

All that aside, I completely reject the notion that this information should not be requested. I concede it should be processed in the correct manner. If a renter doesn't like it there's the option to buy or Air BnB or other short term rentals that don't require this information.

dr.fuzzenstein

But here's the thing. Who do I hand this information over to? Mr Random who administers his property empire of one grotty flat from his kitchen desk, or a reputable company that is accountable, has an administration structure and a data protection statement? What's to stop Mr R. from posting my statements on his Facebook page?
Tenants will have to get a lot more savvy regards randomers posing as landlords.

R.D. aka MR.D

I recently got rejected from a place after supplying a bank statement showing funds of almost twice the amount of money required to pay the rent for 12 months.

I'm employed but my husband isn't. Surely these agents should be using their common sense and seeing that if I alone have the ability to save that much, it isn't much of a risk to take on my husband who isn't currently working simply because he has only moved here form the US. Perfectly employable and well educated with plenty of his own money but taking a little longer to get on his feet.

Since then, I've been reluctant to supply all this personal information because it doesn't seem to making that much difference to them. I drew the line at them actually wanting a personal phone number for my boss. I work in an extremely busy start-up and my boss doesn't have the time to be dealing with my personal matters.

LiamoSail

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What's to stop Mr R. from posting my statements on his Facebook page?
.

The trust works both ways. The LL may post your statements on FB, and you could wreck his house and potentially remain for years without paying a penny in rent.

I still think its the LL who's shouldrring the bulk of the risk

If you don't trust him with your statements, he'd probably be mad to trust you with his investment

geeky

SteM wrote: »

Love it when people start shouting about the data protection act. Why would this be an issue under data protection? The landlord has asked for this information. It's up to the OP whether the he gives it or not. There's no law being broken asking for the information though.

Actually, the data protection commissioner published a case study where a private sector provider (a gym) was looking for excessive information from a potential member. There is a precedent, therefore, for the commissioner coming in where someone is withholding goods or services without the other person giving over personal data, whatever the merits of this issue. Sorry I don't have the link, on a phone.

Technocentral

SteM wrote:

No one forcing them to hand the information over though. Everyone is welcome to walk away after being asked for the information.

Yeah and live on the streets.

Technocentral

Technocentral wrote: »

Yeah and live on the streets.

Most LL's still aren't getting above their station enough to be asking this sort of stuff.

I've a friend who recently moved into what is arguably the best apartment complex in the country, first letting of luxury apartments and he was only asked for employer and previous LL references along with one months deposit and one months rent in advance. No bank statements or other private information that no LL should have the right to even ask for never mind actually get their hands on.

If everyone who rents is on the same page and everyone refuses to give this info then it won't be asked for. People who hand it over too easily are causing it to be asked for more.

Maireadio

Graham wrote: »

Likewise, nothing at all to stop the landlord moving straight onto the next potential tenant.

True but you could be missing out on a good tenant. It might be a tough rental market out there but the best tenants finanically-speaking (which a landlord could likely ascertain from their jobs) will still have their pick of properties and can go for the one who doesn't want a nosy at their bank statements.

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I drew the line at them actually wanting a personal phone number for my boss.

Christ, that landlord needs to get a grip! :eek:

SteM

Technocentral wrote: »

Yeah and live on the streets.

Or look for another apartment where the landlord doesn't require this information.

DivingDuck

This is the reason that every good tenant in Ireland should be in favour of tighter controls and greater measures to allow landlords to remove problem tenants and pushing for such controls to be brought in.

This issue is seen as a "landlord's problem" so nobody but landlords care, but the ultimate reality is that one way or another, the inability to deal effectively and quickly with non-paying or anti-social tenants will eventually end up penalising tenants just as much as landlords.

As someone who is very protective of their personal information, I have every sympathy with concerns over this situation, but until landlords are protected by the law, they're going to have to keep coming up with ways to protect themselves, instead. In the current rental market, where demand vastly outstrips supply, you're either going to have to suck it up and supply what is asked for, or be prepared to wait until something comes up which doesn't ask for these things (which could take a while, and may attract more interest as other like yourself may be waiting for such an opportunity).

What you could do is make a request to come in and offer this information in person to verify your eligibility and then take the documents away with you if you're uncomfortable with them retaining your details (as I would be myself). Other than that, I can't give much advice.

LiamoSail

Tenants that don't pay have far to much protection. If this protection that necessitates LL's to look for such information.

If there was a system whereby those refusing to pay rent could be removed from property's quickly and efficiently, it would serve both LL's and tennants far better

SteM

geeky wrote: »

Actually, the data protection commissioner published a case study where a private sector provider (a gym) was looking for excessive information from a potential member. There is a precedent, therefore, for the commissioner coming in where someone is withholding goods or services without the other person giving over personal data, whatever the merits of this issue. Sorry I don't have the link, on a phone.

would be very in reading this to compare the details to the OP. Can't see the case study on the data protection website.

newacc2015

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, a landlord is a business. Its the same as buying something of eBay, you'd want to be completely loola to buy something expensive off a seller that has negative or no feedback.
The same should go for landlords, the problem in this country is that a lot of them are accidental landlords and even more are chancers. Would anyone pay for a professional service as vitally important as the roof over their head from some fly by night cowboy who might be minutes away from foreclosure or has already signed the property over to a vulture fund and they're preparing to turf your out as the ink dries on the rental contract? And no way to check them out?
Quite frankly I would prefer to rent from a larger, professional company who specialise in large scale rentals, who can back up their operations with paperwork and are accountable, rather than renting a shabby flat in Rathmines of some random bloke who suddenly wants to see my birth cert, doctor's report and bank statements.
A lot of landlords will now howl "we can demand what we want and we don't want to be landlords anyway!". Yes, well the rental market here needs a massive shake up. Maybe larger corporations buying lots of rental space is a good thing. They have the financial power to survive on lower profit margins, have service contracts with maintenance companies and the necessary staff to be on top of the paperwork, unlike Mr Random, who works it out on his kitchen table with a calculator and a pencil.
It goes both ways indeed.

Is there supposed to be a fact in this slab of text? You made vast unfounded claims with no merit. Ie rambling on about deposit protection schemes when I mentioned that only 0.31% of tenancies end with unfairly withheld deposit. Implying all LL's are chancers, tax dodgers etc. These claims are so ridiculous
Very few properties eventually end up being sold to a vulture fund. A tenant can sue a landlord for their deposit back. It is extremely difficult for a landlord to sue a tenant for unpaid rent

You don't seem to understand a LL is trusting you with his property worth hundreds of thousands. There is zero comparison to buying a €2 phone case off eBay. There is no way to check a dodgy landlord, there is no way to check a dodgy tenant. A landlord by checking a tenants bank details can check who they say they are and that they actually have a job. There are far more trouble tenants than there is LLs in this country

It is naive to assume REITs will operate on a lower profit margin than a private LL. Most Irish REITs have been doling out rent increase letters like no tomorrow

murphaph

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, a landlord is a business. Its the same as buying something of eBay, you'd want to be completely loola to buy something expensive off a seller that has negative or no feedback.
The same should go for landlords, the problem in this country is that a lot of them are accidental landlords and even more are chancers. Would anyone pay for a professional service as vitally important as the roof over their head from some fly by night cowboy who might be minutes away from foreclosure or has already signed the property over to a vulture fund and they're preparing to turf your out as the ink dries on the rental contract? And no way to check them out?
Quite frankly I would prefer to rent from a larger, professional company who specialise in large scale rentals, who can back up their operations with paperwork and are accountable, rather than renting a shabby flat in Rathmines of some random bloke who suddenly wants to see my birth cert, doctor's report and bank statements.
A lot of landlords will now howl "we can demand what we want and we don't want to be landlords anyway!". Yes, well the rental market here needs a massive shake up. Maybe larger corporations buying lots of rental space is a good thing. They have the financial power to survive on lower profit margins, have service contracts with maintenance companies and the necessary staff to be on top of the paperwork, unlike Mr Random, who works it out on his kitchen table with a calculator and a pencil.
It goes both ways indeed.

When you go to your doctor do you ask to see his qualifications? Plenty of cases of fake medical practitioners in the past.

Landlords have to make do and mend given Ireland has no independent credit rating agency. The landlord has to at least have some indication that the prospective tenant is solvent. Bank statements are a tool. The landlord doesn't have to retain anything. He just needs to look at the statements and make a decision and note down that decision and immediately return the documents to the applicant.

usernamegoes

MarkAnthony wrote: »

While the data protection act may have a role to play there is certainly nothing to stop an estate agent registering as a data what not and complying with the acts, just as an EA would be able, if we had one, to credit check prospective tenants.

The issue is, as usual, that Ireland is the wild west in relation to these things and when the legislature can't even be arsed to do what it normally does - lift legislation from our neighbouring jurisdiction - we end up with everyone freelancing.

All that aside, I completely reject the notion that this information should not be requested. I concede it should be processed in the correct manner. If a renter doesn't like it there's the option to buy or Air BnB or other short term rentals that don't require this information.

The office of the data protection commissioner has held that this type of data can not be asked of prospective tenants but if it is adequate, relevant, and not excessive may be asked after they get the place.

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docimages/documents/Annual%20Report%202014.pdf p20 case study 5

SteM wrote: »

would be very in reading this to compare the details to the OP. Can't see the case study on the data protection website.

See above it's more on point.

Shawn Michaels

The supply of properties has dwindled and demand has soared. Landlords have every right to do their utmost to weed out potential problem tenants. I think that I would look to see bank statements, speak with the tenant's HR department, and look for at least three month's rent as a deposit. Everything to mitigate the risk of having a problem tenant basically.

Maireadio

Shawn Michaels wrote: »

The supply of properties has dwindled and demand has soared. Landlords have every right to do their utmost to weed out potential problem tenants. I think that I would look to see bank statements, speak with the tenant's HR department, and look for at least three month's rent as a deposit. Everything to mitigate the risk of having a problem tenant basically.

What happens if no prospective tenants supplies this stuff? Or one does? You may not get the best one at all. I suppose three months deposit might be an indicator. Or someone might just get a loan of their folks to cover it and it may not be an indicator at all. Things might be tough in Dublin renting-wise, but I've seen among my own friends that the ones with the most secure and/or better paying jobs still have people accommodating them. Given a choice, nobody is going to go for the one that is looking for far more rent up front and will be wasting the time of people they work for/with. Until there is a third party system here, nobody is going to happen handing over that much money as a deposit.

MarkAnthony

usernamegoes wrote: »

The office of the data protection commissioner has held that this type of data can not be asked of prospective tenants but if it is adequate, relevant, and not excessive may be asked after they get the place.

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docimages/documents/Annual%20Report%202014.pdf p20 case study 5



See above it's more on point.

They've held it in that particular case on those particular grounds. If they wish to collect it to prove ability to pay then the commissioner would need to give its opinion there and as this is an administrative body the decision is subject to judicial review.

Eugene Norman

Shawn Michaels wrote: »

The supply of properties has dwindled and demand has soared. Landlords have every right to do their utmost to weed out potential problem tenants. I think that I would look to see bank statements, speak with the tenant's HR department, and look for at least three month's rent as a deposit. Everything to mitigate the risk of having a problem tenant basically.

Three months rent isn't going to fly. It's not going to protect you against criminal classes either.

Eugene Norman

Landlords tend to forget that they aren't just providing a service but a socially essential one.

The reaction to evicting people, demanding 3 months rent, demanding accounts, refusing health boards etc. will be a political will to bypass amateur or private sector landlords with large scale house building. Which will eventually harm your investments.

MarkAnthony

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Landlords tend to forget that they aren't just providing a service but a socially essential one.

The reaction to evicting people, demanding 3 months rent, demanding accounts, refusing health boards etc. will be a political will to bypass amateur or private sector landlords with large scale house building. Which will eventually harm your investments.

It never will be for the simple fact that the country is being kept running at the moment by tax from renters.

We couldn't engage in large scale housing even if we tried and again there is absolutely no political will to reduce housing prices, a cohort of people need to be forced into double taxation, it's the only way to continue to fund the country.

Anyway I'm sure we'll be asked to take it to another forum in due course so I'll leave it there. Other than to say, it's not the job of private LLs to provide essential housing, that's the job of government. Private LLs are there for people who want to rent in the private sector. I sincerely hope that the majority of private LLs are eventually shut out of the market, including me, that day would signal that we've finally got social housing and buying a home right in this country.