looking for bank statements and private info

murphaph

rossmores wrote: »

You should check out the rents charged by these larger corps here well out of range for the average renter cant say about the service but these corp have share holders and they demand return on any investment
I am sure when you go to rent from them they will ask higher deposits (2 months) and all documents mentioned here.
I live out side ireland its a two month deposit with a return deposit guarantee 1 month after the property is vacated

The grass is always greener as they say. Here in Germany you can legally wait up to a whole year for your entire deposit to be returned. This is because tenants must pay their share of certain maintenance costs for an apartment building or like in our building until recently, the water bill is split according to apartment area and the bill only comes once a year to the management company, who then ask the landlord to pay it along with the other charges. The tenant is then passed on his share of the costs. I own my apartment so I see the complete breakdown of costs that the management company says I must pay. Beside some items there's an asterisk indicating that this cost can be passed on to the tenant. I only get this statement annually like all landlords, so the tenant has to wait for it to be issued before their full deposit will be returned, plus or minus whatever they are owed.

I also wouldn't fancy being a flat hunter right now. It's crazy here with dozens of applicants for every flat. My colleague told me he went to look at one on Friday and the queue came all the way down 4 flights of stairs and out onto the street. This is not uncommon here at the moment.

Barely Hedged

Cork2015! wrote: »

I think asking for a bank statement is insane and don't know who the heck the landlord thinks they are!

It takes 1 and in some cases 2 years to evict a non paying tenant and only the loss to revenue can be offset against tax, assuming you can remain liquid for that period of time. In a developed, western economy that's insane.

In the absence of regulation from the government, the only objective and independent way to verify that a future tenant will pay on time and continuously is using bank statements. There is no other way. This is not insanity, this is running a business sensibly

Barely Hedged

Barely Hedged wrote: »

Maybe because you bank with them? I'm with AIB and they didn't ask for certified documents because they could cross reference. When I went with UB they wanted official bank statements from AIB. Internet banking wouldn't wash.

No not my bank, KBC are happy to have everything in estatement format (even specified on the application). Thankfully too as getting statements posted out is a pain and slows everything down (I had to do it for one account that doesn't have estatements).

Barely Hedged wrote: »

Private document. Tone down the hyperbole and realise that you're an adult entering into a legal agreement that carries financial risk for both parties. How else would this financial risk be minimised objectively and independently.

A LL asking for statements is just not on simple as that, you can say things like "your an adult" all you want that doesn't change the fact that a bank statement is a highly confidential and private document and should not be shared except with highly regulated bodies like other banks etc. I don't want some random person knowing the goings on in my bank account or how much money I make etc.

There is plenty of other info available such as employer and previous LL reference and a deposit up front. You are renting not buying and should not be having to jump through hoops.

Graham wrote: »

By all means stick to your principles. If you're not happy providing any requested information then don't provide it, just be aware that it's likely to take you much longer to find accommodation in a high-demand area if you're effectively ruling yourself out of many potential rentals.

If everyone stuck to their guns and refused to provide bank statements then they would not be asked for.

Barely Hedged wrote: »

It takes 1 and in some cases 2 years to evict a non paying tenant and only the loss to revenue can be offset against tax, assuming you can remain liquid for that period of time. In a developed, western economy that's insane.

In the absence of regulation from the government, the only objective and independent way to verify that a future tenant will pay on time and continuously is using bank statements. There is no other way. This is not insanity, this is running a business sensibly

What is needed is changes so that bad tenants can be thrown out on their ear quickly and efficiently not a move towards LL asking for far too much private information.

Its still very rare to be asked for a bank statement, I know a few people who have rented recently and they were not asked for any such information and one was an exceptionally high quality luxury apartment.

jester77

Not sure what the issue with showing a bank statement is, what do people think the landlord is going to do with that info? It's pretty much meaningless, the landlord just wants to see that you have previously paid rent on time in the past and that you really can afford to pay it. That's it, nothing more, nothing to be so paranoid about.

It's standard practice here in Germany, along with 3 months deposit. And this is the country with the most paranoid people in the world when it comes to privacy and security. Yet, they don't take any issue with this.

Do people also complain when getting a mortgage that they have to show their previous bank statements?

Cork2015!

Barely Hedged wrote: »

It takes 1 and in some cases 2 years to evict a non paying tenant and only the loss to revenue can be offset against tax, assuming you can remain liquid for that period of time. In a developed, western economy that's insane.

In the absence of regulation from the government, the only objective and independent way to verify that a future tenant will pay on time and continuously is using bank statements. There is no other way. This is not insanity, this is running a business sensibly

Yes but what I mean is the whole thinking around it is insane.... just because somebody has x amount of money in their bank account at the end of the month doesn't mean that they are automatically be a great tenant and pay their rent on time,

Plus if you are going to be renting within the next few months it is easy to "clean up" your account, but who is to say (if 3 months statements given) that you didn't spend the 4th or 5th month spending half your wages in paddy powers without paying any of your bills etc.

I would nearly agree to a credit check by ICB printed out and given to landlord, wouldn't this be a more accurate picture of potential tenants?

OldNotWIse

SteM wrote: »

No one forcing them to hand the information over though. Everyone is welcome to walk away after being asked for the information.

Its constructive forcing though, because they need somewhere to live. If they don't provide the information they wont be able to live there.

OldNotWIse

jester77 wrote: »

Not sure what the issue with showing a bank statement is, what do people think the landlord is going to do with that info? It's pretty much meaningless, the landlord just wants to see that you have previously paid rent on time in the past and that you really can afford to pay it. That's it, nothing more, nothing to be so paranoid about.

It's standard practice here in Germany, along with 3 months deposit. And this is the country with the most paranoid people in the world when it comes to privacy and security. Yet, they don't take any issue with this.

Do people also complain when getting a mortgage that they have to show their previous bank statements?

My old LL demanded payslips, which I provided....and then turned up at my place of work to verbally abuse me when we logged a complaint with the PRTB over a concern we had. That's just one example of how such information can be mis-used. Turning up at my place of work. Wouldn't have known where I worked were it not for me providing payslips.

Lux23

We really need an independent assessment agency that could provide a cert for landlords that would mean tenants wouldn't have to hand over personal information like this. I wouldn't be completely averse to providing this information, but I would want the landlord to sign something saying that it would be destroyed once he was finished.

Barely Hedged

Danica Obedient Pinprick wrote: »

No not my bank, KBC are happy to have everything in estatement format (even specified on the application). Thankfully too as getting statements posted out is a pain and slows everything down (I had to do it for one account that doesn't have estatements).



A LL asking for statements is just not on simple as that, you can say things like "your an adult" all you want that doesn't change the fact that a bank statement is a highly confidential and private document and should not be shared except with highly regulated bodies like other banks etc. I don't want some random person knowing the goings on in my bank account or how much money I make etc.

There is plenty of other info available such as employer and previous LL reference and a deposit up front. You are renting not buying and should not be having to jump through hoops.



If everyone stuck to their guns and refused to provide bank statements then they would not be asked for.



What is needed is changes so that bad tenants can be thrown out on their ear quickly and efficiently not a move towards LL asking for far too much private information.

Its still very rare to be asked for a bank statement, I know a few people who have rented recently and they were not asked for any such information and one was an exceptionally quality luxury apartment.

Regardless of each individual banks policies, if you default you'll probably have > 20% equity the bank can use as a buffer and the repossession process will be much faster as you'll be charged with fraud for manipulating official bank estatements as they'll no doubt cross reference them with your bank. Can a landlord do that?

In the absence of no regulation from the government, the only independent and objective way to verify that a tenancy starting tomorrow will be performing is official bank statements. You can list all the other items you want that can be used as references but they are wholly insufficient and open to abuse. This has been highlighted previously and you shouldn't need it pointed out again.

You can be principled and opinionated on this topic and argue that the status quo is sufficient but the reality, like with a lot of things in life, is that everything is not black and white, the law does not provide protection to all and that life is rather many shades of grey. This is a prime example of it. Your principles in this case will mean you limit yourself to a lot less accommodation possibilities and you will find it hard to rent anywhere decent quickly.

Graham

OldNotWIse wrote: »

My old LL demanded payslips, which I provided....and then turned up at my place of work to verbally abuse me when we logged a complaint with the PRTB over a concern we had. That's just one example of how such information can be mis-used.

I think it's fair to say that's an isolated example. I don't see a wholesale pattern of renters complaining about landlords appearing at their workplace.

That's bang out of order though, I've no idea how I'd react in that situation.

OldNotWIse

Graham wrote: »

I think it's fair to say that's an isolated example. I don't see a wholesale pattern of renters complaining about landlords appearing at their workplace.

That's bang out of order though, I've no idea how I'd react in that situation.

You don't know that though.

I had her removed by security. Didn't like us flagging anything with PRTB as it turned out property wasn't registered. But you know, once the tenants are upstanding citizens that's all that matters.

Barely Hedged

Cork2015! wrote: »

Yes but what I mean is the whole thinking around it is insane.... just because somebody has x amount of money in their bank account at the end of the month doesn't mean that they are automatically be a great tenant and pay their rent on time,

Plus if you are going to be renting within the next few months it is easy to "clean up" your account, but who is to say (if 3 months statements given) that you didn't spend the 4th or 5th month spending half your wages in paddy powers without paying any of your bills etc.

I would nearly agree to a credit check by ICB printed out and given to landlord, wouldn't this be a more accurate picture of potential tenants?

It will show a continuous payment stream to one source. That's what a landlord wants to see.

You can argue fallacies and gaps in bank statements and I agree that they be sometimes not fully representative on the assumption the individual goes out of there way to do that. However the probability is low and the discussion is around minimisation of risk.

A previous landlord cannot register a credit event against a tenant.

Mrs OBumble

Danica Obedient Pinprick wrote: »

I don't want some random person knowing the goings on in my bank account or how much money I make etc.

A person who is going to let an asset worth hundreds of thousands to you is hardly "some random person".

Graham

OldNotWIse wrote: »

You don't know that though.

I'm quite open to evidence to the contrary

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I had her removed by security. Didn't like us flagging anything with PRTB as it turned out property wasn't registered. But you know, once the tenants are upstanding citizens that's all that matters.

Good, I hope she got a substantial fine for not registering and well done you for bringing it to the attention of the PRTB. More actions like that make it less likely future landlords will try and skirt that obligation.

Barely Hedged

OldNotWIse wrote: »

My old LL demanded payslips, which I provided....and then turned up at my place of work to verbally abuse me when we logged a complaint with the PRTB over a concern we had. That's just one example of how such information can be mis-used. Turning up at my place of work. Wouldn't have known where I worked were it not for me providing payslips.

Take a survey of 10 friends who have rented in the recent past and ask them how many times this has happened to them

Bob24

jester77 wrote: »

Do people also complain when getting a mortgage that they have to show their previous bank statements?

They don't because they understand that:
1) A mortgage is a vastly bigger and riskier commitment for a bank than leasing a property is for a landlord
2) A bank is a regulated entity which has processes in place to handle private information according to the law. An individual landlord probably doesn't care about these things and might be completely uneducated about how they should handle this type of data (I wouldn't be surprised if landlords asking for bank statements were just throwing then in a regular rubbish bin without making the information unrecognisable ... something I would never do with a document containing my name, address, and details of my financial situation).

Barely Hedged

Lux23 wrote: »

We really need an independent assessment agency that could provide a cert for landlords that would mean tenants wouldn't have to hand over personal information like this. I wouldn't be completely averse to providing this information, but I would want the landlord to sign something saying that it would be destroyed once he was finished.

There should be an arm of the PRTB that deals with this issue alone.

This would need to be paid for, most likely by the tenant although depending on market forces, the landlord might need to stump up something. However this is in everybody's interest. Good tenants would benefit - how many times have you heard anecdotally that landlord's kept rent artificially low for good tenants and bad tenants would be forced to pay a premium through higher than normal rent or increased security deposit.

Win win for landlord's and tenants who don't want to game the system

Graham

Bob24 wrote: »

They don't because they understand that:
1) A mortgage is a vastly bigger and riskier commitment for a bank than leasing a property is for a landlord
2) A bank is a regulated entity which has processes in place to handle private information according to the law. An individual landlord probably doesn't care about these things and might be completely uneducated about how they should handle this type of data (I wouldn't be surprised if landlords asking for bank statements were just throwing then in a regular rubbish bin without making the information unrecognisable ... something I would never do with a document containing my name, address, and details of my financial situation).

What do you suggest to a potential tenant stood behind a queue of 10 other people who are prepared to hand over bank statements etc.

murphaph

OldNotWIse wrote: »

You don't know that though.

I had her removed by security. Didn't like us flagging anything with PRTB as it turned out property wasn't registered. But you know, once the tenants are upstanding citizens that's all that matters.

But don't you see, you could take your complaint to the PRTB who will act on it. If a tenant simply stops paying rent the PRTB are toothless. It's an agency that provides no protection whatsoever to landlords. We've been forced into asking for these details because the state offers us no support in dealing with problem tenants.

Shawn Michaels

The last time I rented out my property, 30 people wanted it. Some offered more money than I was asking.

I looked for the following:

- 3 month's rent as a deposit
- 3 month's bank statements dated within the last six months
- 3 most recent credit card statement
- 3 most recent payslips
- Written reference from employer
- Landline number to speak with the employer
- Salary certs from the employer
- Written reference from previous landlord
- A copy of the previous tenancy's PRTB registration
- A copy of their savings account or credit union statement
- A copy of an up to date (i.e. within the last month) ICB credit report

10 people were able to provide all of the above. I met them all and interviewed them all. I went for the ones who came across best and indicated that they wanted a multiyear tenancy. I am delighted with my tenants.

I was just being prudent with my asset, which is worth a lot of money.

OldNotWIse

murphaph wrote: »

But don't you see, you could take your complaint to the PRTB who will act on it. If a tenant simply stops paying rent the PRTB are toothless. It's an agency that provides no protection whatsoever to landlords. We've been forced into asking for these details because the state offers us no support in dealing with problem tenants.

Sorry....

murphaph

Bob24 wrote: »

They don't because they understand that:
1) A mortgage is a vastly bigger and riskier commitment for a bank than leasing a property is for a landlord

This is not really quantifiable but let's try. A single mortgage to a bank may represent a tiny fraction of a percent of their business. A single let property may represent 100% of a landlord's business. A non-paying tenant can quite easily financially ruin a landlord. A single defaulting mortgage is unlikely to ruin a bank. But you think the bank has more right to ask for a bank statement. I find this curious.

Bob24 wrote: »

2) A bank is a regulated entity which has processes in place to handle private information according to the law. An individual landlord probably doesn't care about these things and might be completely uneducated about how they should handle this type of data (I wouldn't be surprised if landlords asking for bank statements were just throwing then in a regular rubbish bin without making the information unrecognisable ... something I would never do with a document containing my name, address, and details of my financial situation).

Seeing as others are throwing out anecdotal evidence of this and that, here's mine....I applied for a current account with BoI about 10 years ago. I realised afterwards that I was missing my passport, which I'd used to identify myself in the branch. I went back and sure enough they'd forgotten to give it back to me in the envelope of documents I'd handed them to photocopy. My passport was still in the photocopier in a publically accesable area of the branch. Data protection you say?

Graham

Shawn Michaels wrote: »

The last time I rented out my property, 30 people wanted it. Some offered more money than I was asking.

I looked for the following:

- 3 month's rent as a deposit
- 3 month's bank statements dated within the last six months
- 3 most recent credit card statement
- 3 most recent payslips
- Written reference from employer
- Landline number to speak with the employer
- Salary certs from the employer
- Written reference from previous landlord
- A copy of the previous tenancy's PRTB registration
- A copy of their savings account or credit union statement
- A copy of an up to date (i.e. within the last month) ICB credit report

If I'm interpreting the 'Enforced Subject Access' part of the data protection legislation correctly, and my understanding of ICB 'credit reports' is accurate. You were lucky to get away with insisting on an ICB report.

murphaph

Shawn Michaels wrote: »

The last time I rented out my property, 30 people wanted it. Some offered more money than I was asking.

I looked for the following:

- 3 month's rent as a deposit
- 3 month's bank statements dated within the last six months
- 3 most recent credit card statement
- 3 most recent payslips
- Written reference from employer
- Landline number to speak with the employer
- Salary certs from the employer
- Written reference from previous landlord
- A copy of the previous tenancy's PRTB registration
- A copy of their savings account or credit union statement
- A copy of an up to date (i.e. within the last month) ICB credit report

10 people were able to provide all of the above. I met them all and interviewed them all. I went for the ones who came across best and indicated that they wanted a multiyear tenancy. I am delighted with my tenants.

I was just being prudent with my asset, which is worth a lot of money.

And it sounds like your tenants found themselves a professional landlord who cares enough about his property that it'll be properly maintained and so on. Everybody's happy.

Bob24

Graham wrote: »

What do you suggest to a potential tenant stood behind a queue of 10 other people who are prepared to hand over bank statements etc.

I was not suggesting anything there. Of course I understand the pressure to provide the documents and if individual people think it is what they have to do I wouldn't discuss that.

But because people will likely have to do it doesn't mean saying amen to the practice and accepting it as reasonable!

testaccount123

murphaph wrote: »

And it sounds like your tenants found themselves a professional landlord who cares enough about his property that it'll be properly maintained and so on. Everybody's happy.

Doesnt sound like a professional landlord to me. Someone asking for all that information screams 'cowboy who has no problem overstepping his bounds' to me.

Graham

testaccount123 wrote: »

Doesnt sound like a professional landlord to me. Someone asking for credit card statements screams 'cowboy who has no problem overstepping his bounds' to me.

I would imagine the credit card/savings/credit union statements is stepping into the 'excessive information' territory as far as data protection goes. I can't see how the ICB report was legally obtained.

Shawn Michaels

To those who are obsessing about "data protection", I only asked to see the relevant documentation...I didn't keep it. I'm also sceptical about whether data protection legislation applies here at all, but in any event I didn't retain the documentation just in case.

Graham

Shawn Michaels wrote: »

To those who are obsessing about "data protection", I only asked to see the relevant documentation...I didn't keep it. I'm also sceptical about whether data protection legislation applies here at all, but in any event I didn't retain the documentation just in case.

It does apply, and I can't see how insisting someone apply for a Data Protection Subject Access Request from the ICB is anything other than an unlawful Enforced Subject Access.

Cork2015!

Shawn Michaels wrote: »

The last time I rented out my property, 30 people wanted it. Some offered more money than I was asking.

I looked for the following:

- 3 month's rent as a deposit
- 3 month's bank statements dated within the last six months
- 3 most recent credit card statement
- 3 most recent payslips
- Written reference from employer
- Landline number to speak with the employer
- Salary certs from the employer
- Written reference from previous landlord
- A copy of the previous tenancy's PRTB registration
- A copy of their savings account or credit union statement
- A copy of an up to date (i.e. within the last month) ICB credit report

10 people were able to provide all of the above. I met them all and interviewed them all. I went for the ones who came across best and indicated that they wanted a multiyear tenancy. I am delighted with my tenants.

I was just being prudent with my asset, which is worth a lot of money.

No offense but I would actually rather be homeless than provide the above list to anyone... but that's just my opinion. Given that 10 people were happy to oblige shows that it is probably slowly becoming the norm. I just can't fathom why somebodys savings account would be anything to do with any landlord?!?!?!? maybe it is just me but this seems a bit ridiculous, but like you said if it made you feel safer letting the house to them then at least you can sleep a bit tighter at night.

This thread is just making me feel sorry for all the young couples out there who don't have an outrageous deposit, good savings history, clean credit score, perfect bank statement, employer who has time to take to several potential landlords for each employee, previous PTRB registration etc. etc.

I mean god help any young couple branching out and renting for the first time... judging by these terms I guess their only solution is to either live with parents, get a mortgage or end up homeless

By the above standards a young couple starting out would literally have zero chance of getting a place (ever).... this is appaling