Jose Mourinho, the new manager of Manchester United

PhlegmyMoses

WarZ wrote: »

I was talking purely in regards to success, United are definitely bigger in a marketing sense but Juventus are the more accomplished club.

From your list, the only major difference is league titles. We are talking about differerent leagues and different circumstances. I'm not sure that's enough to make a call with regards to a bigger team, but have at it I guess. I'm not sure many will agree with you.

WarZ

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

From your list, the only major difference is league titles. We are talking about differerent leagues and different circumstances. I'm not sure that's enough to make a call with regards to a bigger team, but have at it I guess. I'm not sure many will agree with you.

Theres a huge discrepancy in league titles and the serie A was a notoriously more difficult league. They also lead Domestic Cup Titles and intercontinental titles and have 2 CL to United's 3 however they've been in the Champions League final an incredible 7 times.

I don't see how they are not a more accomplished team. They are also currently a much bigger team in European football.

I've yet to see anything that convinces me that United are a bigger team historically or currently. There is literally no evidence to suggest either.

Billy86

WarZ wrote: »

Up until very recently the Serie A was a much, much more difficult league than the Premier League so that excuse just doesn't wash.

'Recently' being a decade ago. By this logic, in the early 90s England was every bit as attractive a destination as Italy or Spain, because in the 80s English teams had great success in Europe and was a very difficult league to win.

But as well all know, this was not the case. Why? Because the league had been severely weakened from where it was a decade previous.

Juventus have won more titles across the board, they regularly compete in the Champions League where United have vanished from.

Good to see you acknowledge Man Utd as the most attractive destination in England then. I doubt many managers count titles won in the 40s and 50s as relevant toward their decision of whether or not to take charge of a club.

But going back to your first point, Man Utd recently won the CL and got to 3 finals, so that recency excuse doesn't wash.

City and Chelsea are currently big clubs because they are currently competing. Man United is a well supported club but they are not competitive at the highest levels.

You'll need to remind me again what Chelsea were competing for this year?

I would put Man United on par with AC Milan currently. Both giants but currently not 'big clubs' in the strict sense of the word.

Funny then, that we just got one of the very, very biggest name and most successful managers in the world while Milan have been stuck in a cycle of promoting former players and youth team managers for years now.

If we had been unable to attract anyone of sufficient quality and had to settle for Giggs, you might have a point. But like much of your post... you don't.

duffman13

WarZ wrote: »

Up until very recently the Serie A was a much, much more difficult league than the Premier League so that excuse just doesn't wash.

Juventus have won more titles across the board, they regularly compete in the Champions League where United have vanished from.

City and Chelsea are currently big clubs because they are currently competing. Man United is a well supported club but they are not competitive at the highest levels.

I would put Man United on par with AC Milan currently. Both giants but currently not 'big clubs' in the strict sense of the word.

When was Serie A a much more difficult league, the late 90s? You need to define what is big, you said Juventus are a big club because of there history then say that City and Chelsea are big because they are competing. Realistically Uniteds last league title was 3 years ago, its not like we've been in the wilderness 20 years.

Seriously there is a few ways you can measure it but United job is a bigger job than Juventus, United are a financially bigger club with a bigger fan base worldwide. They have one of the most recognized brands in sport in the world. A big job is based on prestige, the United job is prestigious and hugely enhances the profile of the person in the job.

Juventus want a new manager it'll most likely be the next best manager in Serie A or sometimes not even (Allegri) Juventus are a fantastic club but the United job is a much more coveted position.

Billy86

WarZ wrote: »

I've yet to see anything that convinces me that United are a bigger team historically or currently. There is literally no evidence to suggest either.

When you consider the fact that Italy USED TO BE a much tougher league, over a decade ago as 'proof' that Juventus are better, and then try to claim that it is irrelevant Man Utd USED TO BE in 3 CL finals in 5 years, less than a decade ago, as irrelevant and too far in the past to matter... yeah consider me unsurprised.

When you say Man Utd's recent failures in Europe as 'proof' but then say Chelsea's recent failures are irrelevant... consider me unsurprised.

When you say Juve's titles from decades past are 'proof' but then say Man Utd's titles from past decades do not proof anything re. Chelsea/City... consider me unsurprised.


All this shows is that enough mental gymnastics and you can convince yourself of anything.

RasTa

He is all over the place, what the hell were Chelsea competing for this year.

WarZ

Billy86 wrote: »

'Recently' being a decade ago. By this logic, in the early 90s England was every bit as attractive a destination as Italy or Spain, because in the 80s English teams had great success in Europe and was a very difficult league to win.

But as well all know, this was not the case. Why? Because the league had been severely weakened from where it was a decade previous.

The Premier League was incredibly weak for decades. It is of the most high end idiocy to suggest that Juventus' league titles are irrelevant because of the current state of Serie A compared to the Premier League.

But going back to your first point, Man Utd recently won the CL and got to 3 finals, so that recency excuse doesn't wash.

Juventus have been to 7 finals and won 2. Juventus have been the more consistent team in Europe. Juventus were only in the final last year for god sake! Where were United?

You'll need to remind me again what Chelsea were competing for this year?

I wouldn't argue Chelsea are above Man United. I said Chelsea are a big club, like United they aren't competing for anything this year obviously.

Funny then, that we just got one of the very, very biggest name and most successful managers in the world while Milan have been stuck in a cycle of promoting former players and youth team managers for years now.

Money talks. Serie A is a shambles but like Manchester United, AC Milan are a team with a strong history but currently uncompetitive in Europe.

WarZ

duffman13 wrote: »

When was Serie A a much more difficult league, the late 90s? You need to define what is big, you said Juventus are a big club because of there history then say that City and Chelsea are big because they are competing. Realistically Uniteds last league title was 3 years ago, its not like we've been in the wilderness 20 years.

I would argue currently City are a bigger team. Don't forget, I didn't say United wasn't a big club, I just said they are currently and historically not as big as Juventus.

Seriously there is a few ways you can measure it but United job is a bigger job than Juventus, United are a financially bigger club with a bigger fan base worldwide. They have one of the most recognized brands in sport in the world. A big job is based on prestige, the United job is prestigious and hugely enhances the profile of the person in the job.

I have repeatedly stated I was talking about big in the sense of the more accomplished club.

Juventus want a new manager it'll most likely be the next best manager in Serie A or sometimes not even (Allegri) Juventus are a fantastic club but the United job is a much more coveted position.

Again I've never denied the United position is more sought after, I was talking purely about whats the bigger club in relation to winning pedigree.

astonaidan

WarZ wrote: »

They absolutely are.

32 league titles to Manchester's 13

20 Domestic Cup wins to Manchester's 16

2 European Cups to Manchester's 3

2 Intercontinental Cups to Manchester's 1


They also compete regularly in the Champions League unlike Manchester United who haven't competed in god knows how long.

Juventus are a bigger club both historically and currently. I think you are too blinded by premiership bias to be honest.

I would say I watch more Seria A than premier league my friend. You could say Rangers are a bigger team than Juventus in that case.
They dont actually compete regularly in the CL, they have been to a recent final yes
You do know saying premiership bias is possibly the most cliche argument when someone doesnt agree with you, you know that right?
I could just as easily say you are anti-premierleague, see I just did it and like your point its pointless and a little sad.

WarZ

astonaidan wrote: »

I would say I watch more Seria A than premier league my friend. You could say Rangers are a bigger team than Juventus in that case.
They dont actually compete regularly in the CL, they have been to a recent final yes
You do know saying premiership bias is possibly the most cliche argument when someone doesnt agree with you, you know that right?
I could just as easily say you are anti-premierleague, see I just did it and like your point its pointless and a little sad.

Are you actually comparing the Serie A to the Scottish League? That is beyond silly.

astonaidan

Billy86 wrote: »

When you consider the fact that Italy USED TO BE a much tougher league, over a decade ago as 'proof' that Juventus are better, and then try to claim that it is irrelevant Man Utd USED TO BE in 3 CL finals in 5 years, less than a decade ago, as irrelevant and too far in the past to matter... yeah consider me unsurprised.

When you say Man Utd's recent failures in Europe as 'proof' but then say Chelsea's recent failures are irrelevant... consider me unsurprised.

When you say Juve's titles from decades past are 'proof' but then say Man Utd's titles from past decades do not proof anything re. Chelsea/City... consider me unsurprised.


All this shows is that enough mental gymnastics and you can convince yourself of anything.

Im going to say it, hes drunk :pac::pac:

PhlegmyMoses

WarZ wrote: »

Theres a huge discrepancy in league titles and the serie A was a notoriously more difficult league. They also lead Domestic Cup Titles and intercontinental titles and have 2 CL to United's 3 however they've been in the Champions League final an incredible 7 times.

I don't see how they are not a more accomplished team. They are also currently a much bigger team in European football.

I've yet to see anything that convinces me that United are a bigger team historically or currently. There is literally no evidence to suggest either.

So United had a pretty average average league record until Busby. Only 3 titles prior to 1955. Juventus had 10. So in the last 60 years, they have won titles on a fairly even level. Juventus with 4 or 5 more,.depending on some disputed wins

You might ask why I'm drawing an arbitrary line in the 50s and that's fair enough. The reason I'm doing this is to try to show that for 60 years, United have pretty much kept pace with Juve. What happened pre war etc is a nice way to boost your trophy haul, but trying to make stuff like that relevant gets us into ridiculous arguments about whether Huddersfield are as big a club as Man City, what with both of them having similar title hauls.

Basically, your definition of bigger club is different to pretty much everybody else's.

duffman13

WarZ wrote: »

Juventus have been to 7 finals and won 2. Juventus have been the more consistent team in Europe. Juventus were only in the final last year for god sake! Where were United?

Outside of last year the haven't got past the last 16 since 2003 failing to get out of the group on numerous occasions. Juventus haven't even been the most consistent Italian team in Europe (AC Milan)

Juventus have a great history but have always been the power houses in Italy similar to Bayern in Germany. Money made Italy competitive for a while and now Juventus are the only viable team that can reasonably spend money. This has gone way off topic but if you are a manager and not a fan of either club and you have the chance to manage either one, I say 99% of people go for United. You are the 1% by the looks of it

duffman13

WarZ wrote: »

Again I've never denied the United position is more sought after, I was talking purely about whats the bigger club in relation to winning pedigree.

Well no you started this whole debate by posting this

WarZ wrote: »

Man United is not even remotely close to being one of the biggest jobs in the world. When was the last time they even challenged for the Champions League?

You then proceeded to say Juventus are a bigger club and would be more sought after. As I said there is no manager worth their salt who turns down United for Juventus unless a fan.

Edit:
From your follow up posts you are now happy
United would be more sought after but believe Juventus to be bigger a club. I think we should leave it there and maybe go back to the original topic

RobertKK

Eden Hazard: "Mourinho is a fantastic manager. I wish him good luck for the next season."I can't wait and just want to play against Manchester United. He's a good manager with a lot of experience. He's at a big club now and he will just want to win games."


Hazard looking for a move? He praised his former manager while getting an indirect putdown of Chelsea in as well.
No offense intended Chelsea fans, it is just the way Eden put it...

WarZ

Billy86 wrote: »

When you consider the fact that Italy USED TO BE a much tougher league, over a decade ago as 'proof' that Juventus are better, and then try to claim that it is irrelevant Man Utd USED TO BE in 3 CL finals in 5 years, less than a decade ago, as irrelevant and too far in the past to matter... yeah consider me unsurprised.

I said Juventus are bigger because their title record dwarves Uniteds. I merely brought up periods when the Serie A was stronger because you were discounting the league titles on the basis that the Premier League is CURRENTLY stronger. I was pointing out that the Serie A has been stronger at various periods as well so to discount Juventus domestic titles or to compare the Serie A to the Scottish League is pure stupidity.

When you say Man Utd's recent failures in Europe as 'proof' but then say Chelsea's recent failures are irrelevant... consider me unsurprised.

Where did I say Chelsea's failures were irrelevant? I just said Chelsea are a big club, don't forget I didn't say United werent a big club, they are, I just argued that they aren't as big as Juventus.

When you say Juve's titles from decades past are 'proof' but then say Man Utd's titles from past decades do not proof anything re. Chelsea/City... consider me unsurprised.

I said City are currently a bigger club and I still believe that to be true. I didn't say United's past titles are irrelevant I merely said Juventus have a bigger trophy cabinet. Rather than being irrelevant the legacies of both clubs formed the actual basis for my argument.

All this shows is that enough mental gymnastics and you can convince yourself of anything.

I'm dealing in actual facts. League titles, League Cups, European prowess and Intercontinental titles. You are the one doing the mental gymnastics by claiming Juventus' league titles are meaningless by comparing the Serie A to the Scottish League and that somehow Man United are more competitive in Europe currently despite Juventus being in the final last year and United not even qualifying for the Champions League!

WarZ

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

So United had a pretty average average league record until Busby. Only 3 titles prior to 1955. Juventus had 10. So in the last 60 years, they have won titles on a fairly even level. Juventus with 4 or 5 more,.depending on some disputed wins

You might ask why I'm drawing an arbitrary line in the 50s and that's fair enough. The reason I'm doing this is to try to show that for 60 years, United have pretty much kept pace with Juve. What happened pre war etc is a nice way to boost your trophy haul, but trying to make stuff like that relevant gets us into ridiculous arguments about whether Huddersfield are as big a club as Man City, what with both of them having similar title hauls.

Basically, your definition of bigger club is different to pretty much everybody else's.

I said from the start I was going by accomplishments and current state and going on those Juventus are definitely the bigger club. If you want to look at who has the more Asian supporters or who sells more Fellani shirts then United are unquestionably ahead but I was talking purely in footballing terms not marketing.

WarZ

duffman13 wrote: »

Well no you started this whole debate by posting this



You then proceeded to say Juventus are a bigger club and would be more sought after. As I said there is no manager worth their salt who turns down United for Juventus unless a fan.

Edit:
From your follow up posts you are now happy
United would be more sought after but believe Juventus to be bigger a club. I think we should leave it there and maybe go back to the original topic

Agreed. I never said Juventus is the more sought after job I just argued that Juventus were the bigger club in terms of success.

Billy86

WarZ wrote: »

The Premier League was incredibly weak for decades. It is of the most high end idiocy to suggest that Juventus' league titles are irrelevant because of the current state of Serie A compared to the Premier League.

'For decades' - expand on this, thanks.

So according to you, Juve winning a very difficult league 20-30 years ago is 'proof', but that the league they are winning now is weak is 'irrelevant'.

Keep going, I'm really enjoying these mental gymnastics ! I'd give that one a solid 8.4.

It is interesting that you never denied thinking England in 1991 was every bit as attractive for players and managers as Italy or Spain were though. Completely at odds with reality, but interesting nonetheless.

Juventus have been to 7 finals and won 2. Juventus have been the more consistent team in Europe. Juventus were only in the final last year for god sake! Where were United?

So now you're shifting the goal posts and including only making finals? Are we going to be including second place finishes in the league as well? :pac:

Average effort; 6.1.

I wouldn't argue Chelsea are above Man United. I said Chelsea are a big club, like United they aren't competing for anything this year obviously.

Sorry but that's not what you said at all...

"City and Chelsea are currently big clubs because they are currently competing. Man United is a well supported club but they are not competitive at the highest levels."

Just a 4.4 for this one; slipping now.

Money talks. Serie A is a shambles but like Manchester United, AC Milan are a team with a strong history but currently uncompetitive in Europe.

You might have a point if Milan were a poor team, but they are not so you don't.

They spent over €85mn on players just last season, but for some mysterious reason had to settle for their U21/reserves manager to take over from the previous guy who was only a midtable manager without much pedigree, who had to take over from the previous guy who was a former player/youth manager, who had to take over from the previous guy who was a former player that got plugged straight into the manager's role.

Just a sad 2.8 score for this one, and it all started out so promising.

CSF

Saul T Nutzz wrote: »

After Barca, Madrid and Bayern, name a bigger one.

A case could be made for the United job being bigger than those too.

No it couldn't.

deaddonkey15

Manchester United are arguably the biggest football club in the world all things considered. I don't think any sensible football fan would insist Juventus are a bigger club, it's debatable whether they are even the biggest club in Italy. Personally, I don't consider big clubs as ones who decrease their stadium capacity and bribe referees into getting them results. In terms of management roles, there are not too many jobs bigger than managing Manchester United, certainly not Juventus. The sheer size of the club, the global expectation to succeed, and following in the footsteps of arguably the greatest manager of them all demands only the very best. Unfortunately, we are only getting that at United now.

CSF wrote: »

No it couldn't.

Of course it could.

Billy86

WarZ wrote: »

I said Juventus are bigger because their title record dwarves Uniteds. I merely brought up periods when the Serie A was stronger because you were discounting the league titles on the basis that the Premier League is CURRENTLY stronger. I was pointing out that the Serie A has been stronger at various periods as well so to discount Juventus domestic titles or to compare the Serie A to the Scottish League is pure stupidity.

You seem to have imagined this conversation. I said Serie A is currently a weaker league and so a less attractive destination. You disagreed that it is a less attractive destination because it used to be a tougher league 20-30 years ago. Here's the post to remind you: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99866134&postcount=501

So you are arguing that because Man Utd is currently struggling for the last 3 years, they are less attractive. But at the same time you are arguing that Serie A being struggling for the last 10+ years is completely irrelevant because it used to be good, a long time ago.

This is what is called a logical fallacy. Still think England in 1991 was as attractive to players or managers as Italy or Spain due to it being very successful in the 70s and early 80s?

Where did I say Chelsea's failures were irrelevant? I just said Chelsea are a big club, don't forget I didn't say United werent a big club, they are, I just argued that they aren't as big as Juventus.

You said Chelsea are currently competing, thus not even acknowledging their failures. While at the same time arguing part of you think Juve are bigger than Man Utd is because of titles won decades back, but not acknowledging that this in turn would make Man Utd bigger than Chelsea by default.

Are you a Liverpool fan by chance?

I said City are currently a bigger club and I still believe that to be true. I didn't say United's past titles are irrelevant I merely said Juventus have a bigger trophy cabinet. Rather than being irrelevant the legacies of both clubs formed the actual basis for my argument.

So Juve, despite playing in a weaker league, are a more attractive option than Man Utd because of titles they won decades back.

Meanwhile, Man Utd are not a more attractive option than Man City despite not being in a weaker league, and titles they won decades back don't change that.

cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance
nounPSYCHOLOGY
the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

I'm dealing in actual facts. League titles, League Cups, European prowess and Intercontinental titles. You are the one doing the mental gymnastics by claiming Juventus' league titles are meaningless by comparing the Serie A to the Scottish League and that somehow Man United are more competitive in Europe currently despite Juventus being in the final last year and United not even qualifying for the Champions League!

That's twice in one post you have imagined up conversations. Where did I compare Serie A to Scotland?

You wanted to talk about 'recency' (but not this season) in terms of successes when it came to Chelsea, now you don't with United. I'd suggest you stop digging.

WarZ

Billy86 wrote: »

'For decades' - expand on this, thanks.

So according to you, Juve winning a very difficult league 20-30 years ago is 'proof', but that the league they are winning now is weak is 'irrelevant'.

Keep going, I'm really enjoying these mental gymnastics ! I'd give that one a solid 8.4.

It is interesting that you never denied thinking England in 1991 was every bit as attractive for players and managers as Italy or Spain were though. Completely at odds with reality, but interesting nonetheless.

My entire point is just that, that both leagues have been dominate at different times. You were the one to try write off Juventus domestics titles on the basis that the Serie A is currently the weaker league.

So now you're shifting the goal posts and including only making finals? Are we going to be including second place finishes in the league as well? :pac:

Average effort; 6.1.

I am talking about being competitive in Europe. The more competitive you are the further you regularly get.

Sorry but that's not what you said at all...

"City and Chelsea are currently big clubs because they are currently competing. Man United is a well supported club but they are not competitive at the highest levels."

Just a 4.4 for this one; slipping now.

When I say currently I am talking about in the last 1-2 years, Chelsea won the Premier League last year. I am not going to write off a team based on one poor season. United haven't competed in the last two seasons.

You might have a point if Milan were a poor team, but they are not so you don't.

They spent over €85mn on players just last season, but for some mysterious reason had to settle for their U21/reserves manager to take over from the previous guy who was only a midtable manager without much pedigree, who had to take over from the previous guy who was a former player/youth manager, who had to take over from the previous guy who was a former player that got plugged straight into the manager's role.

Just a sad 2.8 score for this one, and it all started out so promising.

As I have repeatedly said I never denied that Manchester United wasn't the more sought after job. I've no idea why you struggle so much to process this point.

You can be as needlessly provocative as you want, the fact remains that the statistics are on my side. And you simply cannot argue against that. More League titles, more league cups, 2 CLs to United 3, more intercontiental cups and currently the more competitive team in Europe.

Look your obviously a United Fan so we'll leave it there but your arguing against cold hard facts at this stage.

Billy86

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Of course it could.

To be fair, at this point in time -- definitely not. Barca, Bayern and Real are out in a league of their own in recent times when it comes to attractiveness for player/managers.

WarZ

Billy86 wrote: »

You seem to have imagined this conversation. I said Serie A is currently a weaker league and so a less attractive destination. You disagreed that it is a less attractive destination because it used to be a tougher league 20-30 years ago. Here's the post to remind you: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99866134&postcount=501

So you are arguing that because Man Utd is currently struggling for the last 3 years, they are less attractive. But at the same time you are arguing that Serie A being struggling for the last 10+ years is completely irrelevant because it used to be good, a long time ago.

This is what is called a logical fallacy. Still think England in 1991 was as attractive to players or managers as Italy or Spain due to it being very successful in the 70s and early 80s?

You said Chelsea are currently competing, thus not even acknowledging their failures. While at the same time arguing part of you think Juve are bigger than Man Utd is because of titles won decades back, but not acknowledging that this in turn would make Man Utd bigger than Chelsea by default.

Are you a Liverpool fan by chance?

So Juve, despite playing in a weaker league, are a more attractive option than Man Utd because of titles they won decades back.

Meanwhile, Man Utd are not a more attractive option than Man City despite not being in a weaker league, and titles they won decades back don't change that.

cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance
nounPSYCHOLOGY
the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.



That's twice in one post you have imagined up conversations. Where did I compare Serie A to Scotland?

You wanted to talk about 'recency' (but not this season) in terms of successes when it came to Chelsea, now you don't with United. I'd suggest you stop digging.

I am literally repeating myself at this stage and your rehashing the same arguments that I've already explained.

CSF

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Of course it could.

No, to suggest United are a bigger club than Real Madrid or Barcelona is just delusional.

WarZ

CSF wrote: »

No, to suggest United are a bigger club than Real Madrid or Barcelona is just delusional.

Absolutely astonishing to be honest. Think some United fans need some reality, they haven't even qualified for the Champions League.

deaddonkey15

Billy86 wrote: »

To be fair, at this point in time -- definitely not. Barca, Bayern and Real are out in a league of their own in recent times when it comes to attractiveness for player/managers.

Well it depends on what the definition of "big" is. I would argue that getting United back to the top is a far bigger and more demanding task than bashing a few Bundesliga sides and putting in a good show in the CL with Bayern. The post I quoted didn't say that managing United wasn't a bigger management role than Bayern, Real, Barca, it said that you couldn't even make a case for the United role being bigger. Nonsense of course.

deaddonkey15

CSF wrote: »

No, to suggest United are a bigger club than Real Madrid or Barcelona is just delusional.

Your initial post was in response to the United manager job not being bigger than those clubs plus Bayern. Can you explain why it isn't? Or why you excluded Bayern in this post?

RobertKK

In terms of prestige and history, Mourinho will have managed the two biggest clubs in the world.
Manchester United and Real Madrid.

CSF

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Your initial post was in response to the United manager job not being bigger than those clubs plus Bayern. Can you explain why it isn't? Or why you excluded Bayern in this post?

Well I think Bayern are in the tier below Barcelona and Real, so I emphasised the 2 clubs who are even further away from United than Bayern are. The gap in size between United and Bayern is smaller but still exists.

And yes I can explain, these are bigger clubs where the job involves working with the biggest and best players in the world, with much higher expectations. There is no bigger, higher-pressure jobs than the Barca and Real jobs, where you can win the league domestically and still be considered a failure.

CSF

RobertKK wrote: »

In terms of prestige and history, Mourinho will have managed the two biggest clubs in the world.
Manchester United and Real Madrid.

If you actually think Man United are a bigger club, with more prestige and history then Barcelona then I don't know whether to feel sorry for you, or be jealous of you getting to live in that level of blissful ignorance.

HardenendMan

United aren't even the biggest club in Lancashire :-D

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

In terms of prestige and history, Mourinho will have managed the two biggest clubs in the world.
Manchester United and Real Madrid.

This is delusional bias.

Loads of European clubs with vast more history than Utd.



In commercial sense Utd are in the top 2 I'd imagine.

Footballing wise they aren't up there at all at the moment.

deaddonkey15

CSF wrote: »

Well I think Bayern are in the tier below Barcelona and Real, so I emphasised the 2 clubs who are even further away from United than Bayern are. The gap in size between United and Bayern is smaller but still exists.

What are these "tiers" and "gaps" in terms of exactly?

CSF wrote: »

And yes I can explain, these are bigger clubs where the job involves working with the biggest and best players in the world, with much higher expectations. There is no bigger, higher-pressure jobs than the Barca and Real jobs, where you can win the league domestically and still be considered a failure.

The expectations at United are the exact same as Barcelona and Real Madrid. Just because United are struggling a bit at the moment doesn't change that. Real and Barcelona both had their periods of relatively poor performance. It's cyclical. One could argue the task of restoring United to domestic champions and annual CL challengers is as big and difficult, if not more so, than managing Barcelona or playing puppet to Florentino Perez for a year or so.

CSF

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

What are these "tiers" and "gaps" in terms of exactly?



The expectations at United are the exact same as Barcelona and Real Madrid. Just because United are struggling a bit at the moment doesn't change that. Real and Barcelona both had their periods of relatively poor performance. It's cyclical. One could argue the task of restoring United to domestic champions and annual CL challengers is as big and difficult, if not more so, than managing Barcelona or playing puppet to Florentino Perez for a year or so.

The expectations are not the same at United. Not a hope. You think Moyes or Van Gaal would have lasted as long as they did outside the top 4 at Barca or Real? Not a hope.

The task of restoring United to challengers is bigger and more difficult for sure, but that's not really the measure. I mean the challenge of restoring Nottingham Forest is bigger again but we're not going to use that as a measure because it's ridiculous.

Billy86

WarZ wrote: »

I am literally repeating myself at this stage and your rehashing the same arguments that I've already explained.

Except you're not repeating yourself, you're just making it up as you go. Thiss whole back-and-forth began because you said Serie A being weaker right now is irrelevant because it used to be bigger 10-20-30 years ago.

So again I will ask, because it's pretty telling that you keep avoiding this... in 1991, would England have been as attractive a destination for players and managers as Italy or Spain?

And while we are at it, where did I ever bring up Scotland?

rob316

If the expectations at united were the same as madrid van gaal wouldn't have made Christmas this year. Don't delude yourselves the only way united compete with the true European giants of the game is on the balance sheet.

RobertKK

CSF wrote: »

If you actually think Man United are a bigger club, with more prestige and history then Barcelona then I don't know whether to feel sorry for you, or be jealous of you getting to live in that level of blissful ignorance.

Barcelona has lots of history, they would be in my top 3.

But worldwide United are the most supported club, if you watched the match in Michigan back in 2014 when United played Real Madrid and over 109,000 people attended the game, the vast majority were supporting United.
The history between United and Real Madrid, when United had the Munich air disaster, Real Madrid offered United Di Stefano and raised money to help United.
Birds of a feather flock together... http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/how-real-madrid-helped-to-rebuild-manchester-united-after-munich-air-disaster-8492422.html

That is history, and one of the greatest stories in the history of European club football. How United had the Munich air disaster which devastated the team and club, and in 10 years after went onto win the European Cup.
That is what people talk about when they talk about United and history, or as Mourinho put it, United have history, romance and mystique.
A devastating disaster didn't stop United's march to be the best, a march to success that Mourinho wants to resume.

Billy86

RoboKlopp wrote: »

This is delusional bias.

Loads of European clubs with vast more history than Utd.

I would put Milan and Madrid ahead on that front at #1 and #2 respectively, after that it's really a toss up depending on what people are looking at between about 6-8 other clubs (Man Utd, Liverpool, Juve, Bayern, Ajax, Barca, and one or two I'm probably forgetting right now).

CSF

RobertKK wrote: »

Barcelona has lots of history, they would be in my top 3.

But worldwide United are the most supported club, if you watched the match in Michigan back in 2014 when United played Real Madrid and over 109,000 people attended the game, the vast majority were supporting United.
The history between United and Real Madrid, when United had the Munich air disaster, Real Madrid offered United Di Stefano and raised money to help United.
Birds of a feather flock together... http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/how-real-madrid-helped-to-rebuild-manchester-united-after-munich-air-disaster-8492422.html

That is history, and one of the greatest stories in the history of European club football. How United had the Munich air disaster which devastated the team and club, and in 10 years after went onto win the European Cup.
That is what people talk about when they talk about United and history, or as Mourinho put it, United have history, romance and mystique.
A devastating disaster didn't stop United's march to be the best, a march to success that Mourinho wants to resume.

Good Jesus, this is so ridiculous that I can't even donate my time into a back and forth on it. Just no.

RobertKK

CSF wrote: »

Good Jesus, this is so ridiculous that I can't even donate my time into a back and forth on it. Just no.

That totally avoided my post, with you just trying to deflect your lack of knowledge on United and their history.
So 'just no' indeed was a good way for you to finish your reply.

Liam McPoyle

CSF wrote: »

No it couldn't.

Yes, it could.

The biggest revenue generating club in the world, the most supported team in the world, of course you could make an argument for it.

I didn't, nor am i going to because its clear to most that Madrid and Barca are bigger clubs, but nevertheless, an argument could be made for it.

Billy86

Saul T Nutzz wrote: »

Yes, it could.

The biggest revenue generating club in the world, the most supported team in the world, of course you could make an argument for it.

I didn't, nor am i going to because its clear to most that Madrid and Barca are bigger clubs, but nevertheless, an argument could be made for it.

On a flat scale, in principle... sure.

For example if Ferguson retired a few years earlier, we could pick almost anybody we wanted. By 2013, despite the squad deteriorating, we still could have possibly had more sway than Real/Bayern (but not Barca with all the success they had had in the interim). But after the last three years... nah, we're not nearly as attractive an option as any of them.

A bigger task to be sure, as those three are currently sailing, but not a more attractive or prestigious one right at this point in time.

CSF

RobertKK wrote: »

That totally avoided my post, with you just trying to deflect your lack of knowledge on United and their history.
So 'just no' indeed was a good way for you to finish your reply.

Ok, I'll bite. When people talk about history they're usually talking about great teams, elite European trophies, finals, special players that shaped the world.

You just talked about Munich. I didn't want to reply directly to that because I don't want to be disrespectful to that but it doesn't make United a bigger or more prestigious club than Real or Barca.

ziggyman17

Love the bitterness towards Utd on this thread............

CSF

ziggyman17 wrote: »

Love the bitterness towards Utd on this thread............

Are you 12 or something?

ziggyman17

CSF wrote: »

Are you 12 or something?

no, but with the amount of ****e that you are posting, you are either a child or a bitter little man.............

monkey9

ziggyman17 wrote: »

Love the bitterness towards Utd on this thread............

:pac::pac: WTF is that!!!!

Nalz

Wow

United have only won 13 league titles
AC Milan aren't as big as Juventus
The likes of Liverpool and United can't be spoken to be as big or close to the likes of Barca and Real


Just wow

Back on topic, hope Jose does well but will take a lot for me to fully warm to him