Jose Mourinho, the new manager of Manchester United

CSF

pablo128 wrote: »

The defence speaks for itself. We let in one of the lowest amounts in the league. Martial, Lingard, Rashford, Memphis, Mata, Rooney, and a heap more in midfield.

That's a good squad in anyones book.

Let's be realistic though, it's not a squad that should be 'frightening' anyone other than Man United fans who have been used to having the best squad in the league. 4th/5th is a fair enough reflection of where that squad is right now. Mourinho will know he has a lot of work to do to get the team to the level he will want.

Billy86

CSF wrote: »

I think the new money in football changes the dynamic vastly in football in any case. Catching Barca/Bayern/Real is no longer the primary challenge. PSG/City/Chelsea are just as big as the rest now if we eliminate history as one of the criteria and just concentrate on the present day/future.

I think PSG are not quite 100% there yet, but are close - France as a league needs a little further establishing but they are most likely only 2-3 years (or a CL trophy) off earning that legitimacy and in the mean time money will sway some beyond the niggling few other concerns.

I would generally agree though - not many managers (nor players) really look at past glories when taking on jobs I would imagine. The likes of Madrid or Barca might be somewhat of an exception but not too much as we are seeing in Milan in recent times. Really it's about commercial revenue (money in = money that can go out, on the squad), club ambitions, the current squad, and other far more contemporary concerns than titles that were won before most of the players were born, and when most of the managers were children (if even born).

K-9

CSF wrote: »

Let's be realistic though, it's not a squad that should be 'frightening' anyone other than Man United fans who have been used to having the best squad in the league. 4th/5th is a fair enough reflection of where that squad is right now. Mourinho will know he has a lot of work to do to get the team to the level he will want.

After the season that has just gone, 4th/5th up to second there's little difference! Which by default means 1st unless somebody thinks Leicester can finish top 4 again.

A lot will depend on how others build, and a bit of luck!

CSF

Billy86 wrote: »

I think PSG are not quite 100% there yet, but are close - France as a league needs a little further establishing but they are most likely only 2-3 years (or a CL trophy) off earning that legitimacy and in the mean time money will sway some beyond the niggling few other concerns.

I would generally agree though - not many managers (nor players) really look at past glories when taking on jobs I would imagine. The likes of Madrid or Barca might be somewhat of an exception but not too much as we are seeing in Milan in recent times. Really it's about commercial revenue (money in = money that can go out, on the squad), club ambitions, the current squad, and other far more contemporary concerns than titles that were won before most of the players were born, and when most of the managers were children (if even born).

You just get the feeling that with the amount of money being spent there that someone has to get it right eventually. I still feel it's a fight with Bayern for 3rd spot in the pecking order for the rest though, hard to see anyone, not Mourinho's United, Guardiola's City, anyone pushing Real or Barca off their perch for a prolonged spell anytime soon.

Billy86

pablo128 wrote: »

The defence speaks for itself. We let in one of the lowest amounts in the league. Martial, Lingard, Rashford, Memphis, Mata, Rooney, and a heap more in midfield.

That's a good squad in anyones book.

The defensive record was in large part due to a very defensive setup, which I don't think a single person wants to see much more of. We do have maybe the best GK in the world, possibly the best CB in the country, and some very exciting young talent in Foso Mensah, Shaw, Borthwick Jackson, etc but there is no guarantee on any of them, and Darmian/Blind for my money are very good, solid, reliable and versatile squad players but will never be particularly dominant players - potentially this generations Wes Brown/John O'Shea type.

We need a better CB to partner Smalling, we could benefit from possibly a bit of depth at FB (where Young & Valencia should never play again, though neither should even be at the club) and a midfielder to act as the screen ahead of them now that the long-underrated Carrick is going 35 in July, is past his best and is likely to be let go.

Billy86

CSF wrote: »

You just get the feeling that with the amount of money being spent there that someone has to get it right eventually. I still feel it's a fight with Bayern for 3rd spot in the pecking order for the rest though, hard to see anyone, not Mourinho's United, Guardiola's City, anyone pushing Real or Barca off their perch for a prolonged spell anytime soon.

Barca have won 4 of the last 11 CL trophies. Without even mentioning the style that they did it in, that's the kind of push it would take to move a [hypothetically back to normal as of next season ] Man Utd, Inter, Juve, Liverpool type of club up into that Madrid/Barca bracket. Bayern would probably need less and AC Milan could just need to get (very) competitive again (edit: as well as Serie A improving). So I do agree, though as you say football has become an arms race at the top over the last decade (something I absolutely detest but here we are...) which probably increases the odds of someone managing to do so, as opposed to if it reverted back to more spread out finances like we saw before Abramovitch, City, PSG, the Barca/Real TV deals, etc.

I don't like the idea at all, but outside of City type of sugar daddy finances, I think an English team would need to break away and make their own TV deal to really compete. I f***ing detest that idea, but it's clear that Man Utd would be the biggest beneficiaries if it happened, and funny enough Liverpool might well be second (I reckon Liverpool or Arsenal but haven't researched on it).

CSF

K-9 wrote: »

After the season that has just gone, 4th/5th up to second there's little difference! Which by default means 1st unless somebody thinks Leicester can finish top 4 again.

A lot will depend on how others build, and a bit of luck!

Yeah, I was just referring to the talent in that squad being 'frightening'. Mourinho will have United up there. I'll go with an early post-season prediction of 3rd.

Donnielighto

SuperTortoise wrote: »

They have the best GK in the world, and Martial who has the potential to be world class, aside from that they have a very average team.

I'd add shaw, rashford and under mourinho I'd expect memphis to progress massively but the point is valid.

Giggsy11

SuperTortoise wrote: »

They have the best GK in the world, and Martial who has the potential to be world class, aside from that they have a very average team.

ManUtd don't have frightening talent but their players are far from average outside the players you mentioned.

ManUtd finished just 5 points behind 2nd placed team, 4 points behind Spurs and level on points with City. Our team had one big problem and he is not there anymore.

LiamoSail

I don't get the whole Mourinho "box office" thing. Personally I find his whining difficult to listen to, and invariably turn off the TV when he starts into it.

Great manager though and with United's resources I've no doubt but he'll have them challenging for the title if not this year then next.

Liam McPoyle

Of the current squad there are some excellent players.

DDG being the stand out and the only current world class player we have.

Martial I believe has the tools to go on and be world class but is not the finished article yet.

Defensively we are in good shape and the goals conceded last season prove that.

Shaw was turning into a brilliant full back before suffering the dreadful injury he did so if he can get back to fitness again I expect him to be our (and Englands) first choice left full for the next decade.

Darmian started very well but after one or two mistakes was dropped, I rate him highly and think he will flourish under Jose.

Smalling had a super 3/4 of a season but went a bit mad towards the end of the season.

Herrara looks a great footballer and I think is the very definition of a confidence player. He was dropped regularly by LVG so if Jose can utilise him then he can be an important player.

Basti, looks unfortunately past his best but is massively experienced, used sparingly he can so a job for us.

Mata, very likeable but Jose sold him despite being the teams best player for a couple of years.

Fellaini. Not the most technically gifted player but a real tryer and he has made a difference to our soft MF in a lot of the games he has played.

Carrick, used sparingly he can still do a job.

Lingard, headless is how I would describe him.

Memphis I would give another season to, he has skills but has had mostly a horrible season.

Rashford. Started very brightly and hopefully can continue it into next season. The most exciting young striker I've seen at OT in quite some time.

Rooney, the wild card. Jose is a fan so I'm very interested in how he uses him. He has been anonymous for much of the last two seasons so the question is can Jose get some consistency from him. Could still be a very important player for us.

Some good young players there too, namely Bortwick Johnson, Varela and Mensah, the cameos they have had have been mostly good so they are all ones to watch.

We need a high end centre half, CM and striker / winger.

If we can fill those spots then I'd fancy us against anything the premiership has to offer.

Its good to have the EL as Jose can experiment early with the younger players.

We also have some decent back up players like Blind, Jones (when fit), Young and Rojo.

One of the things I'm most looking forward to is how Jose does in the transfer market.

I read in the Times earlier that the most he has ever spent in the transfer market was on Costa for just shy of £30m which is phenomenonal considering what he has won.

K-9

Shevchenko was £30 Million, probably double that in todays football money.

Liam McPoyle

K-9 wrote: »

Shevchenko was £30 Million, probably double that in todays football money.

Not a Mourinho signing tbf but even including that, still phenomenal what he has done.

Skylinehead

Saul T Nutzz wrote: »

Not a Mourinho signing tbf but even including that, still phenomenal what he has done.

After Porto, has he ever been anywhere that didn't throw stacks of cash around? Wouldn't call that phenomenal (his winning of trophies is), phenomenal is Simeone's Atletico or Leicester winning things on a true relative budget.

Giggsy11

Skylinehead wrote: »

After Porto, has he ever been anywhere that didn't throw stacks of cash around? Wouldn't call that phenomenal (his winning of trophies is), phenomenal is Simeone's Atletico or Leicester winning things on a true relative budget.

All the clubs he signed for were happy to throw cash around and back him, what's the point of not throwing money?

Skylinehead

Giggsy11 wrote: »

All the clubs he signed for were happy to throw cash around and back him, what's the point of not throwing money?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, I wasn't telling Mourinho not to spend.

GreNoLi

Mourinho is poor in the transfer market, his eventual signings won't be rip roaring successes, Zlatan would be a horrible signing.

Juan8

GreNoLi wrote: »

Mourinho is poor in the transfer market, his eventual signings won't be rip roaring successes, Zlatan would be a horrible signing.

What's this based on exactly?

Liam McPoyle

Skylinehead wrote: »

After Porto, has he ever been anywhere that didn't throw stacks of cash around? Wouldn't call that phenomenal (his winning of trophies is), phenomenal is Simeone's Atletico or Leicester winning things on a true relative budget.

That's a silly argument.

Leicester have obviously not had sustained success over the last 12 years (since Jose had a budget)

What have Athleti won in that period, couple of EL's, 1 Copa and 1 La Liga?

If they were winners over a sustained period then you can compare but they havnt been so you can't.

I'm not for one second discounting what Atletico or Leicester have done BTW, it was a fantastic achievement however they are the exception rather than the rule.

The point I was making was where clubs are breaking their transfer records all over the shop - United, LFC, Madrid, Munich, City, Barca etc Jose has won it all by being comparatively modest in his outlays. When spending big he has in the main being successful.

GreNoLi

Juan8 wrote: »

What's this based on exactly?

Transfer dealings.

8-10

GreNoLi wrote: »

Mourinho is poor in the transfer market, his eventual signings won't be rip roaring successes, Zlatan would be a horrible signing.

Zlatan would be an absolutely amazing signing! He's one of the best strikers of the last decade and still in amazing shape.

He'd be the best signing of the season if Mourinho gets him. Some people will say Aguero, but for me he'd be the best striker in the league. He's an unbelievable player.

Juan8

GreNoLi wrote: »

Transfer dealings.

Drogba
Cech
Robben
Essien
Di Maria
Eto'o
Sneijder
Carvalho
Ozil
Varane
Khedira
Fabregas
Costa
Willian
Milito
Motta
Lucio
Zouma
Cole

Off the top of my head

Yeah clearly his transfer dealings have been terrible

GreNoLi

8-10 wrote: »

Zlatan would be an absolutely amazing signing! He's one of the best strikers of the last decade and still in amazing shape.

He'd be the best signing of the season if Mourinho gets him. Some people will say Aguero, but for me he'd be the best striker in the league. He's an unbelievable player.

I'm going to read that as sarcasm.

Juan8

Skylinehead wrote: »

After Porto, has he ever been anywhere that didn't throw stacks of cash around? Wouldn't call that phenomenal (his winning of trophies is), phenomenal is Simeone's Atletico or Leicester winning things on a true relative budget.

Atletico spend big, probably bigger than he did at Inter

sabat

GreNoLi wrote: »

Mourinho is poor in the transfer market, his eventual signings won't be rip roaring successes, Zlatan would be a horrible signing.

There's going to be a severe shortage of top quality players to go around this summer too when you consider that Mans City and Utd and Chelsea need around 4 or 5 first team starters each, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs will be looking to add a big name or two, Real and Barca's squads aren't that great outside their first 11s, PSG will be spending big again, and even mid-table prem teams will have a lot of spare cash floating around. Seeing as there's a tournament happening, I predict a lot of flavour-of-the-month players moving for ridiculous fees, leading to a record number of flops.

GreNoLi

Juan8 wrote: »

Drogba
Cech
Robben
Essien
Di Maria
Eto'o
Sneijder
Carvalho
Ozil
Varane
Khedira
Fabregas
Costa
Willian
Milito
Motta
Lucio
Zouma
Cole

Off the top of my head

Yeah clearly his transfer dealings have been terrible

Never said all his signings were 'terrible', said he is poor in the transfer market.

Juan8

GreNoLi wrote: »

Never said all his signings were 'terrible', said he is poor in the transfer market.

Like I said, Based on what exactly?

If he's poor every manager out there is poor

GreNoLi

Juan8 wrote: »

Like I said, Based on what exactly?

If he's poor every manager out there is poor

Based on all signings made, never said he was a poor manager.

Juan8

GreNoLi wrote: »

Based on all signings made, never said he was a poor manager.

Any examples? I never said you said he was a poor manager, (the way I worded it did look like that tbf) I said if Jose is poor in the transfer market, every manager out there must be

8-10

GreNoLi wrote: »

I'm going to read that as sarcasm.

It's not sarcasm

Cypher_sounds

GreNoLi wrote: »

Mourinho is poor in the transfer market, his eventual signings won't be rip roaring successes, Zlatan would be a horrible signing.

Which manager would you rate as good in the transfer market?

Juan8

Cypher_sounds wrote: »

Which manager would you rate as good in the transfer market?

Probably King Klopp who went out and replaced Lewandowski with Adrian Ramos and Ciro Immobile for €30m :rolleyes:

GreNoLi

8-10 wrote: »

It's not sarcasm

I hope to see him in the premiership even if I think it won't go well.

Simeone is good in teh tranfer market.

deaddonkey15

CSF wrote: »

The expectations are not the same at United. Not a hope. You think Moyes or Van Gaal would have lasted as long as they did outside the top 4 at Barca or Real? Not a hope.

The expectations are the same, United were just a bit tardy with sacking their managers. Remember they were eventually sacked for failing to meet their expectations, just not fast enough for many United fans - myself included. In one way, it's to be admired. It was clear United didn't want their managerial job to becoming a revolving door like Chelsea and Real (who have actually run out of top managers to hire, play puppet to Perez, and then sack) but letting the Moyes/LVG situations continue for as long as they did was a poor decision.

CSF wrote: »

The task of restoring United to challengers is bigger and more difficult for sure, but that's not really the measure. I mean the challenge of restoring Nottingham Forest is bigger again but we're not going to use that as a measure because it's ridiculous.

What is the measure exactly? The difference between Nottingham Forest and United is that Forest aren't a global footballing superpower with, if some sources are to be believed, over half a billion fans as well as global corporations who have invested hundreds of millions in the club demanding success every single year in the most competitive top league in the world and Europe.

Juan8

GreNoLi wrote: »

I hope to see him in the premiership even if I think it won't go well.

Simeone is good in teh tranfer market.

Ah right, The Simeone who spent €60m on Jackson Martinez and Vietto at the start of the season who didn't even make the bench for the CL final, While the other was flogged to China,

He also sold the best CB in the premier league this season for peanuts basically

I see

Liam McPoyle

GreNoLi wrote: »

Never said all his signings were 'terrible', said he is poor in the transfer market.

Can I ask what the thinking behind this is?

Because without actually adding anything to statements like the above you are essentially Oranage2.

Every manager has made booboos in the transfer market, it's par for the course.

deaddonkey15

Funny how Mourinho is often accused of being a chequebook manager, but now is accused of being poor in the transfer market. Which is it?

Juan8

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Funny how Mourinho is often accused of being a chequebook manager, but now is accused of being poor in the transfer market. Which is it?

Simeone spent 140 million euros or so last summer and he's some kind of genius in the market.

I love Simeone, but he buys as many flops as everyone else, Mandzukic, Cerci and Jimenez are another 50 million euro or so of flops he bought the summer before that too.

kippy

sabat wrote: »

GreNoLi wrote: »

Mourinho is poor in the transfer market, his eventual signings won't be rip roaring successes, Zlatan would be a horrible signing.

There's going to be a severe shortage of top quality players to go around this summer too when you consider that Mans City and Utd and Chelsea need around 4 or 5 first team starters each, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs will be looking to add a big name or two, Real and Barca's squads aren't that great outside their first 11s, PSG will be spending big again, and even mid-table prem teams will have a lot of spare cash floating around. Seeing as there's a tournament happening, I predict a lot of flavour-of-the-month players moving for ridiculous fees, leading to a record number of flops.

Great summer to be an agent.....'

CSF

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

The expectations are the same, United were just a bit tardy with sacking their managers. Remember they were eventually sacked for failing to meet their expectations, just not fast enough for many United fans - myself included. In one way, it's to be admired. It was clear United didn't want their managerial job to becoming a revolving door like Chelsea and Real (who have actually run out of top managers to hire, play puppet to Perez, and then sack) but letting the Moyes/LVG situations continue for as long as they did was a poor decision.



What is the measure exactly? The difference between Nottingham Forest and United is that Forest aren't a global footballing superpower with, if some sources are to be believed, over half a billion fans as well as global corporations who have invested hundreds of millions in the club demanding success every single year in the most competitive top league in the world and Europe.

Van Gaal kept his job while finishing 4th, you do not finish 4th and keep your job at Real or Barca. The expectations are clearly not the same. Such arguments really necessitate you taking those blinkers off because that's a bizarre argument.

The_Kew_Tour

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Funny how Mourinho is often accused of being a chequebook manager, but now is accused of being poor in the transfer market. Which is it?

Sure he not called Special One for nothing.;)

Andersonisgod

What a silly debate that must be like 30-40 years behind the times. Massive clubs have departments for the recruitment of players, they have sporting directors, they have vast scouting agencies, they have tonnes of data upon which they rely to make these decisions, the days of a manager going to the park on Sunday and casting his eye across the pitch, pointing to a player and saying "I'll take him" are long gone. As such, holding each manager solely accountable for recruitment is nonsense.

LiamoSail

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

The expectations are the same, United were just a bit tardy with sacking their managers. Remember they were eventually sacked for failing to meet their expectations, just not fast enough for many United fans - myself included. In one way, it's to be admired. It was clear United didn't want their managerial job to becoming a revolving door like Chelsea and Real (who have actually run out of top managers to hire, play puppet to Perez, and then sack) but letting the Moyes/LVG situations continue for as long as they did was a poor decision.

.

United sacked both Moyes and LVG at the earliest opportunity once CL football was impossible. Was nothing to do with the job been seen as a revolving door.

Had Moyes been sacked earlier, they'd have had to pay out his five year contract. Not sure about LVG. The timing of the sackings made sense, although the precise timing of LVG's was obviously bad form

deaddonkey15

CSF wrote: »

Van Gaal kept his job while finishing 4th, you do not finish 4th and keep your job at Real or Barca. The expectations are clearly not the same. Such arguments really necessitate you taking those blinkers off because that's a bizarre argument.

He had made progress on the previous year which was 7th. He failed to make progress this year and paid the price. Hard to say how Barca would react in that situation since the league is structured such that they will probably never be in that situation.

JakeArmitage

Juan8 wrote: »

Probably King Klopp who went out and replaced Lewandowski with Adrian Ramos and Ciro Immobile for €30m :rolleyes:

whats the point in being a specialist in the transfer market if your a specialist in failure?

K-9

8-10 wrote: »

Zlatan would be an absolutely amazing signing! He's one of the best strikers of the last decade and still in amazing shape.

He'd be the best signing of the season if Mourinho gets him. Some people will say Aguero, but for me he'd be the best striker in the league. He's an unbelievable player.

He's hardly going to rely on Zlatan and Rashford is he? Suppose it depends on how he plays Rooney and Martial.

I'd be amazed if he doesn't spend big money on a striker and Zlatan.

bucketybuck

LiamoSail wrote: »

The timing of the sackings made sense

No they did not. Van Gaal was sacked at a minimum 6 months too late and thats obvious to anybody who knows football.

deaddonkey15

LiamoSail wrote: »

United sacked both Moyes and LVG at the earliest opportunity once CL football was impossible. Was nothing to do with the job been seen as a revolving door.

Had Moyes been sacked earlier, they'd have had to pay out his five year contract. Not sure about LVG. The timing of the sackings made sense, although the precise timing of LVG's was obviously bad form

In both those seasons, especially this season, CL qualification could and probably would have been rescued had Moyes/LVG been sacked earlier and the likes of Mourinho hired. United gave them every chance which was admirable, but was also a poor decision in hindsight. This is pretty much the point I made in my post.

Juan8

Andersonisgod wrote: »

What a silly debate that must be like 30-40 years behind the times. Massive clubs have departments for the recruitment of players, they have sporting directors, they have vast scouting agencies, they have tonnes of data upon which they rely to make these decisions, the days of a manager going to the park on Sunday and casting his eye across the pitch, pointing to a player and saying "I'll take him" are long gone. As such, holding each manager solely accountable for recruitment is nonsense.

This is the truth, I listed a few of Jose's buys at Madrid as an example of him being good in the market, but everyone knows Jose most likely didn't buy 1 player while he was at Madrid,

The only manager in the world who I'd say actually buys ALL of his own players these days is Wenger

CSF

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

He had made progress on the previous year which was 7th. He failed to make progress this year and paid the price. Hard to say how Barca would react in that situation since the league is structured such that they will probably never be in that situation.

They were in the same situation a decade ago, the manager got sacked every time!! It worked out well in the end.