Jose Mourinho, the new manager of Manchester United

Andersonisgod

MD1990 wrote: »

Real Madrid broke records under Mourinho in 11/12 though. Most goals scored & most points in a La Liga season.

I'm not sure what that has to do with this current discussion about the competitiveness of the Bundesliga (why that's the debate in this thread I'm not quite sure). Yes he did win 1 La Liga. Is that and 1 Copa Del Rey a good enough return given the vast sums of money spent to put together that squad and given how much Real Madrid changed their structures to suit Mourinho?I don't know, that's up to you to decide.

Boskowski

mansize wrote: »

Maybe Man United and Mourinio were made for each other

A match made in heavenll?

sky88

I think its pretty harsh to consider Jose at madrid a failure he won the title snd a cup. Yes he wasnt a huge success but not a failure.

Also the same people who are defending jose are a lot of the same people who said pep was a failure as he didnt win the champions league which makes no sense.

NIMAN

To be fair to Jose at Madrid, he was there at a time when Barca probably had the best team in football, ever.

Andersonisgod

sky88 wrote: »

I think its pretty harsh to consider Jose at madrid a failure he won the title snd a cup. Yes he wasnt a huge success but not a failure.

Also the same people who are defending jose are a lot of the same people who said pep was a failure as he didnt win the champions league which makes no sense.

If you are to use their criteria then he is an outright failure, infact no, he's a complete laughing stock! As I said, it's open to interpretation, 1 league and 1 cup given the resources at his disposal and the expectations of that club, I'm not sure, is failure too harsh a word? Perhaps, maybe the word to sum up his time there would be average, or maybe it would be disappointing.

sky88

Andersonisgod wrote: »

If you are to use their criteria then he is an outright failure, infact no, he's a complete laughing stock! As I said, it's open to interpretation, 1 league and 1 cup given the resources at his disposal and the expectations of that club, I'm not sure, is failure too harsh a word? Perhaps, maybe the word to sum up his time there would be average, or maybe it would be disappointing.

I think dissapointing would be the right word same with pep at munich. both were slight dissapointments for different reasons.

Giggsy11

Andersonisgod wrote: »

If you are to use their criteria then he is an outright failure, infact no, he's a complete laughing stock! As I said, it's open to interpretation, 1 league and 1 cup given the resources at his disposal and the expectations of that club, I'm not sure, is failure too harsh a word? Perhaps, maybe the word to sum up his time there would be average, or maybe it would be disappointing.

Like I said when Chelsea signed Jose from Madrid, your tone was completely different.

Am I surprised? No. Not even a teeny bit.

Maximus Alexander

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Cannon fodder: Borussia Dortmund just finished with the highest total number of points for a team in 2nd place in the history of the Bundesliga....cannon fodder.

What's that got to do with the price of potatoes? If the league campaign consisted of Bayern v Dortmund 34 times it might be relevant.

SlickRic

Unfortunately, I struggle to see how this won't be a success, at least in the short term. He's a winner. I understand the questions AIG raises over the last couple of tenures. they're actually valid to a point. I just don't agree with it.

the only thing I would worry about if I were a Utd fan, is if he would continue to develop the likes of Rashford, Lingard or Fosu-Mensah. yes, seeing if they'll sink or swim is a fine argument, but going by José's track record, he's not likely to care if youngsters aren't given he look in. he generally works in 3 year cycles anyway, so it's all about immediacy.

Lord TSC

SlickRic wrote: »

the only thing I would worry about if I were a Utd fan, is if he would continue to develop the likes of Rashford, Lingard or Fosu-Mensah. yes, seeing if they'll sink or swim is a fine argument, but going by José's track record, he's not likely to care if youngsters aren't given he look in. he generally works in 3 year cycles anyway, so it's all about immediacy.

While I 100% understand those concerns, I don't understand why so many people (fans and non-fans alike) have put that as a priority for Jose.

I know its cause there's an image about Fergie promoting youth, but he did so once a massive title-winning structure was firmly in place. The priority was always to win stuff now, and then develop youth for the future at the same time. There's one classic example where he focused on youth heavily, and it paid off. But more often than not, especially in his latter years, he was more concerned with winning now than developing youth. Hence buying RVP, bringing Scholes out of retirement, refusing to give Pogba a chance.

The priority has to be getting back to being a top tier club. Youth development can come AFTER that, not before imo.

Backstreet Moyes

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Cannon fodder: Borussia Dortmund just finished with the highest total number of points for a team in 2nd place in the history of the Bundesliga....cannon fodder.

Yes the cannon fodder who couldn't beat the team who finished 8th in england over two legs shows how poor the league is

thomasj

MEN reporting removal men at mourinhos london home.

speedboatchase

thomasj wrote: »

MEN reporting removal men at mourinhos london home.

Good work, men!

adox

thomasj wrote: »

MEN reporting removal men at mourinhos london home.

Evicted?

Lord TSC

adox wrote: »

Evicted?

Given how long he's been on the dole, probably couldn't pay the mortgage :P

deaddonkey15

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Cannon fodder: Borussia Dortmund just finished with the highest total number of points for a team in 2nd place in the history of the Bundesliga....cannon fodder.

I said it's cannon fodder for the most part. Bayern don't play Dortmund every week in the Bundesliga do they?

HalloweenJack

The one possible ray of hope for Mourinho getting back to his best is he's been out of work since December. Previous to that, he'd been employed non-stop since the summer of 2008.

I reckon he could have done with some time off after his spell at Madrid but he threw himself straight into the Chelsea job and he went at it full tilt. Hopefully, he's taken this time off to think about what went wrong and he can come back better prepared. If he has taken the time to reflect and learnt then he could be a dangerous presence for United's rivals.

Big if, though.

sky88

Lord TSC wrote: »

While I 100% understand those concerns, I don't understand why so many people (fans and non-fans alike) have put that as a priority for Jose.

I know its cause there's an image about Fergie promoting youth, but he did so once a massive title-winning structure was firmly in place. The priority was always to win stuff now, and then develop youth for the future at the same time. There's one classic example where he focused on youth heavily, and it paid off. But more often than not, especially in his latter years, he was more concerned with winning now than developing youth. Hence buying RVP, bringing Scholes out of retirement, refusing to give Pogba a chance.

The priority has to be getting back to being a top tier club. Youth development can come AFTER that, not before imo.

In general in the last few years fergie did not do much on youth level except wellbeck and cleverley. i think fergies reliance on the older players is one of the reasons why the squad hasnt been great since he left. The decsion to bring back still annoys me.

Jose i dont think is totally againist youth i think martial will be given a great chance under him but id worry for rashford. I think zlatan will come which of course will be a great signing but will limit rashford playing time or he will be send on loan.

grumpymunster

Had to happen didn't it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/05/23/dr-eva-carneiro-to-be-represented-by-manchester-united-season-ti/?

CSF

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Exactly, imagine appointing one of the best managers in the world. Who would make such decisions.

There's nothing wrong with Mourinho whatsoever. His trophy haul speaks to itself. But there just seems to be no structure at United whatsoever post-Fergie and to be honest maybe there never was at all.

I always find it unnerving when a club puts themselves in a situation where they have to completely tear things up to start again when they undergo a management change but it seems like United are doing this every time now.

If Mourinho leaves in 2/3 years will the player recruitment strategy be in place that ties in with the recruitment strategy of the coaching staff or is it just a case of 'ah sure we will come to that when the time comes' which seems to be Woodward's strategy to date.

I mean based on my experience of Mourinho teams how much of the current squad is he going to be eager to work with?

Rayne Wooney

CSF wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with Mourinho whatsoever. His trophy haul speaks to itself. But there just seems to be no structure at United whatsoever post-Fergie and to be honest maybe there never was at all.

I always find it unnerving when a club puts themselves in a situation where they have to completely tear things up to start again when they undergo a management change but it seems like United are doing this every time now.

If Mourinho leaves in 2/3 years will the player recruitment strategy be in place that ties in with the recruitment strategy of the coaching staff or is it just a case of 'ah sure we will come to that when the time comes' which seems to be Woodward's strategy to date.

I mean based on my experience of Mourinho teams how much of the current squad is he going to be eager to work with?

Moyes 7 year deal, and Van Gaal 3 year deal with 200 million to spend would indicate the club are looking to structure things for the future but it's been a massive failure.

There's normally nothing you can do if a manager doesn't work out, you just have to replace them.

CSF

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Moyes 7 year deal, and Van Gaal 3 year deal with 200 million to spend would indicate the club are looking to structure things for the future but it's been a massive failure.

There's normally nothing you can do if a manager doesn't work out, you just have to replace them.

I think if you look at the other huge clubs out there (and given the huge financial pull that United possess they clearly are one) they choose their managers to fit the club rather than shaping the club to fit the manager.

Barcelona are obviously the prime example, when Enrique leaves eventually, they're going to know what they're looking for in a manager. It won't be Mourinho or Simeone in spite of them being among the best managers in the world. That's not to say there is anything wrong with being a club who go down that route. Atletico know what kind of player they need and sign them accordingly. But United don't really seem to have any kind of footballing structure and obviously Jose's short-term approach doesn't help that.

I mean if he comes in and wins some trophies you'll obviously be delighted with that, who doesn't love winning trophies? But that approach isn't exactly going to help catch up with Barca, Real and Bayern long-term is it?

RGDATA!

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Cannon fodder: Borussia Dortmund just finished with the highest total number of points for a team in 2nd place in the history of the Bundesliga....cannon fodder.

Perhaps he wasn't referring to this year's Dortumund, but the other teams in the league and their challengers for the league in the past two seasons?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Nuts102 wrote: »

Yes the cannon fodder who couldn't beat the team who finished 8th in england over two legs shows how poor the league is

And yet the team who finshed 8th in the Bundesliga were only beaten by 1 over 2 legs by Real Madrid which shows how strong the league is.

Andersonisgod

RGDATA! wrote: »

Perhaps he wasn't referring to this year's Dortumund, but the other teams in the league and their challengers for the league in the past two seasons?

So what, it's a league with some very good teams and 2 outstanding teams. Plenty of leagues follow the same pattern, indeed England followed that pattern for years and years, should that discount some of Ferguson's trophies? What utter nonsense.

Rayne Wooney

Andersonisgod wrote: »

So what, it's a league with some very good teams and 2 outstanding teams. Plenty of leagues follow the same pattern, indeed England followed that pattern for years and years, should that discount some of Ferguson's trophies? What utter nonsense.

So let's lay it out here

You believe Peps 3 league titles with Bayern is legendary

Whilst you also believe 1 league out of 3 up against the best club side of all time is a failure

Andersonisgod

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

So let's lay it out here

You believe Peps 3 league titles with Bayern is legendary

Whilst you also believe 1 league out of 3 up against the best club side of all time is a failure

Please state where I described it as legendary. Infact I outright refuse to engage in any more debate with you until you show me where I said Guardiola's 3 league titles with Bayern Munich are legendary or else please apologise for the blatant tabloid style misquote.

eagle eye

Winning a league title when up against that Barca side was a great achievement but it was well expected. Pellegrini had the highest points total of a losing team in La Liga the year before. It wasn't much of a jump forward to win the title after the year before.

You certainly couldn't say that Mourinho failed at Real Madrid but he won less there than he did at any other club before that.

SlickRic

#Pray4Mata.

Ulysses Gaze

SlickRic wrote: »

#Pray4Mata.

Korat

Ryan Giggs is only a Lionel Messi away from being a Luis Enrique.

Flint Fredstone

If Mata stays, great, he's a quality player and he will play in his best position. If he goes, so be it, I would be confident he will be replaced by someone of equal or greater quality.
The defensive side of his game has actually improved greatly in the last couple of years. I don't see him as such a nailed on casualty of Jose's appointment as he would have been had he come in after Moyes.

Andersonisgod

Korat wrote: »

Ryan Giggs is only a Lionel Messi away from being a Luis Enrique.

Lol seriously?

deaddonkey15

Andersonisgod wrote: »

So what, it's a league with some very good teams and 2 outstanding teams. Plenty of leagues follow the same pattern, indeed England followed that pattern for years and years, should that discount some of Ferguson's trophies? What utter nonsense.

The gap between Bayern and the rest bar Dortmund is absolutely huge. It's been that way for years and looks set to continue being that way for years to come. Bayern's only competition in Germany is Dortmund, so considering Bayern's vastly superior spending power, status, and the constant buying of Dortmund's best players, winning a Bundesliga for them would be the absolute bare minimum of expectations. You don't encounter a monopoly like that in the Premier League.

CSF

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

The gap between Bayern and the rest bar Dortmund is absolutely huge. It's been that way for years and looks set to continue being that way for years to come. Bayern's only competition in Germany is Dortmund, so considering Bayern's vastly superior spending power, status, and the constant buying of Dortmund's best players, winning a Bundesliga for them would be the absolute bare minimum of expectations. You don't encounter a monopoly like that in the Premier League.

You might encounter a monopoly like that in the Premier League if there was a team half as good as Bayern in it though. It's all relative.

Andersonisgod

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

The gap between Bayern and the rest bar Dortmund is absolutely huge. It's been that way for years and looks set to continue being that way for years to come. Bayern's only competition in Germany is Dortmund, so considering Bayern's vastly superior spending power, status, and the constant buying of Dortmund's best players, winning a Bundesliga for them would be the absolute bare minimum of expectations. You don't encounter a monopoly like that in the Premier League.

And yet Dortmund are serious opposition, they are a very real threat. The season before Pep they were Champions League finalists, this season just gone their points total would have seen them win every Bundesliga except for 3 (I think), indeed they were the team with the most points to every finish 2nd so I'd say beating that team to the title is actually something of an achievement. Beating them in the Cup Final is also an achievement!

Unearthly

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm not sure what that has to do with this current discussion about the competitiveness of the Bundesliga (why that's the debate in this thread I'm not quite sure). Yes he did win 1 La Liga. Is that and 1 Copa Del Rey a good enough return given the vast sums of money spent to put together that squad and given how much Real Madrid changed their structures to suit Mourinho?I don't know, that's up to you to decide.

Domestically he did fine. If he were to win 2 leagues out of 3 years then he'd have done better than Barca who had a fantastic manager, and some of the greatest players of all time in their prime. I honestly don't think any amount of money could have bettered that Barca team

What I'd say was disappointing for him was losing to Bayern and Dortmund in CL semis. He had a better team than both when he faced them

Andersonisgod

Unearthly wrote: »

Domestically he did fine. If he were to win 2 leagues out of 3 years then he'd have done better than Barca who had a fantastic manager, and some of the greatest players of all time in their prime. I honestly don't think any amount of money could have bettered that Barca team

What I'd say was disappointing for him was losing to Bayern and Dortmund in CL semis. He had a better team than both when he faced them

All I'd say is that he was specifically brought in to topple Barcelona. After that first Barcelona treble Perez saw where the game was going and identified Mourinho as the man to swing the pendulum back in favour of Real Madrid. If we all accept that that was his ultimate goal then he failed, simple as. His domestic performance was ok, nothing more really and in Europe it was poor. Worse still, his head to head record against Barcelona at Real Madrid is grim reading for anyone with an allegiance to Real Madrid.

Johner

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

If Mata stays, great, he's a quality player and he will play in his best position. If he goes, so be it, I would be confident he will be replaced by someone of equal or greater quality.
The defensive side of his game has actually improved greatly in the last couple of years. I don't see him as such a nailed on casualty of Jose's appointment as he would have been had he come in after Moyes.

Mata being bad defensively was always a bit of a myth, that side of his game was always fine whenever he played on the wing. Jose just doesn't fancy him for whatever reason, probably a lack of pace for a winger and just short of the top quality for a number 10 is the way I'd imagine he views him. I wouldn't blame Mata for wanting to leave United after the way Jose treated him at Chelsea.

~Rebel~

CSF wrote: »

You might encounter a monopoly like that in the Premier League if there was a team half as good as Bayern in it though. It's all relative.

True...but when the gap between 1st and 3rd is bigger than the gap between 3rd and 17th (in an 18 team league), there's a problem with the balance of the league.

There are two elite level teams, and everyone else is on a completely different level - there's not much of a middle ground.

CSF

~Rebel~ wrote: »

True...but when the gap between 1st and 3rd is bigger than the gap between 3rd and 17th (in an 18 team league), there's a problem with the balance of the league.

There are two elite level teams, and everyone else is on a completely different level - there's not much of a middle ground.

There is a problem with the balance of the league, but Bayern would create the same problem in the Premier League. It's not the rest of the league being so bad, as much as it is Bayern being so strong.

Cookiemunster

CSF wrote: »

There is a problem with the balance of the league, but Bayern would create the same problem in the Premier League. It's not the rest of the league being so bad, as much as it is Bayern being so strong.

But a Bayern situation won't happen in the Premier League because there's no team that's so far ahead of every one else financially. If they were in the Premier League the couldn't pick the top talent off anyone who threatened them like they do in Germany.

I thought Utd weren't a sacking club. Tough on LVG after winning the cup.

Enjoyed him in the league. Seems like a decent skin

Cookiemunster

RoboKlopp wrote: »

I thought Utd weren't a sacking club. Tough on LVG after winning the cup.

Enjoyed him in the league. Seems like a decent skin

Utd weren't a sacking club because the had the same manager for 27 years. Before that it was something like 5 managers in 15 years.

deaddonkey15

CSF wrote: »

There is a problem with the balance of the league, but Bayern would create the same problem in the Premier League. It's not the rest of the league being so bad, as much as it is Bayern being so strong.

Nonsense. Drop Bayern into a 20 team league alongside United, Chelsea City, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, West Ham Leicester with no winter break and a diminished ability to cherry pick the league's best players and they would have a much much tougher time of it than they do in Germany.

It's a pointless discussion though. The fact is, Bayern are in an 18 team league where their only realistic challenger has significantly less spending power and pedigree and who are regularly forced to sell Bayern their best players. Finishing above this team is therefore no great achievement.

CSF

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Nonsense. Drop Bayern into a 20 team league alongside United, Chelsea City, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, West Ham Leicester with no winter break and a diminished ability to cherry pick the league's best players and they would have a much much tougher time of it than they do in Germany.

It's a pointless discussion though. The fact is, Bayern are in an 18 team league where their only realistic challenger has significantly less spending power and pedigree and who are regularly forced to sell Bayern their best players. Finishing above this team is therefore no great achievement.

There is not a team in the Premier League that could hold a candle to this Bayern team. That this Leicester team full of players who hadn't hit the heights elsewhere were able to win the league by 10 points says it all about the current standard of team in the Premier League. The money may change things going forward but Premier League football is in a very bad state right now when it comes to competing with the elite in European football.

Ulysses Gaze

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Nonsense. Drop Bayern into a 20 team league alongside United, Chelsea City, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, West Ham Leicester with no winter break and a diminished ability to cherry pick the league's best players and they would have a much much tougher time of it than they do in Germany.

It's a pointless discussion though. The fact is, Bayern are in an 18 team league where their only realistic challenger has significantly less spending power and pedigree and who are regularly forced to sell Bayern their best players. Finishing above this team is therefore no great achievement.

If you did that, Bayern would also have more TV money and even more cash from merchandising than in the Bundesliga which means they'd be able to go in for even higher quality players than they do currently.

~Rebel~

CSF wrote: »

There is a problem with the balance of the league, but Bayern would create the same problem in the Premier League. It's not the rest of the league being so bad, as much as it is Bayern being so strong.

See, I just don't think thats the case. Sure, Bayern would likely win the league - but you're not gonna have this disparity...there'll be layers. You'd see them finish on likely 90 points, someone else on 83 or something, another on 79, and another on 72, and it'll stagger its way down.

In Germany there's two really good teams and then a bunch of ok ones, without the touch of something special that a lot of English clubs have. I think any of the teams that make up the top 10 in England (I'm thinking Stoke, Southampton, West Ham etc), would have a bloody good shout at finishing 3rd in Germany to be honest.

brianregan09

So you really think Stoke would be able to live with Bayer Leverkusen and Schalke or Monchengladbach ?

Ulysses Gaze

~Rebel~ wrote: »

See, I just don't think thats the case. Sure, Bayern would likely win the league - but you're not gonna have this disparity...there'll be layers. You'd see them finish on likely 90 points, someone else on 83 or something, another on 79, and another on 72, and it'll stagger its way down.

In Germany there's two really good teams and then a bunch of ok ones, without the touch of something special that a lot of English clubs have. I think any of the teams that make up the top 10 in England (I'm thinking Stoke, Southampton, West Ham etc), would have a bloody good shout at finishing 3rd in Germany to be honest.

Not if their TV money and ticket prices and gate receipts mirrored the Bundesliga standards.

That's why these arguments are pointless.