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1000's of kids making their communion today

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    That's gas, you're going to have a non-communion celebration to co-incidence with the communions. Do you have non-christmas and non-easter celebrations too? Is it only the catholic religion or do you celebrate non-ramadam and non-bar mitzvah aswell?

    No because Ramadan and Bah Mitzvah are not pushed upon us by the state education system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    No, not because it might look like anything to other kids, or to anyone else for that matter. That's why I said do it for your own kids sake rather than "competing" with, or even setting your kids up in competition with, kids who are making their Communion.

    I am doing it for my own. I'll be doing it so he doesn't equate swearing allegiance to religion with receiving treats and privilege for doing so.

    You absolutely can and do have equality, and you have an opportunity here, yet instead look what you're doing with it?

    How do we and can we have equality?
    Teaching your children that they're better than other children because they're doing something different.

    So I should let him think that Catholic children are better than him because they get money, presents and parties for being Catholic. Not going to happen.
    I'm absolutely not trying to tell you how to be a parent to your own child here, and I was reluctant to say anything in case you'd think I was biased, but this is your child, not mine, so I'm not basing anything on forcing my own religious beliefs down your throat. I'm trying to have you see that you're setting seven year olds up in competition with each other, completely unnecessarily.

    They won't be in competition with each other, but when Johnny tells him on the Monday after communion that he had a party and got paid €1000 for being Catholic, Little Kiwi can say "cool, what are you going to buy? I had a great weekend too, I went to Old Trafford", rather than "You're really lucky, I wish I was Catholic so I got €1000 too".
    What will you be planning for your kids when the other kids are making their Confirmation? By then will the competition have escalated to funding the next moon landing?
    .

    I'll worry about that one once we get there, but similar scenario to the communion I imagine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    100cent wrote: »
    It seems restricted to an anti-Catholic agenda.

    There is no attempt by the state education system to indoctrinate my kid with any other religion only Catholicism, so there is no reason for me to have a problem with, or take much notice of the rest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Based on the ops argument we shouldn't let our kids get involved in politics or law enforcement as the politicians and guards covered up the child abuse and therefore allowed it happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,394 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    I am doing it for my own. I'll be doing it so he doesn't equate swearing allegiance to religion with receiving treats and privilege for doing so.


    But surely you'll have explained to him about the significance of the event and explained that it's not that the children are getting treats for swearing allegiance to a religion? It's their parents decision to have their children make their Communion, not the children's decision. The parents are busy enough trying to outdo each other already without you buying into the farcical materialistic competition (in your own way of course, and I do get where you're coming from, I really do, because I had it with my own child when he made his Communion and I requested that people donate to charity instead of giving him money).

    How do we and can we have equality?


    You and I are equals in every way, you're no more or less human than I am, your children are no more or less human than my child. There isn't any difference between them, therefore neither your child nor my child are any more or less human than each other. This is the opportunity you have to remind your children of that fact.


    So I should let him think that Catholic children are better than him because they get money, presents and parties for being Catholic. Not going to happen.


    Absolutely not! Ever! And I would hope no child would ever grow up with that attitude towards another human being.

    They won't be in competition with each other, but when Johnny tells him on the Monday after communion that he had a party and got paid €1000 for being Catholic, Little Kiwi can say "cool, what are you going to buy? I had a great weekend too, I went to Old Trafford", rather than "You're really lucky, I wish I was Catholic so I got €1000 too".


    I'm not even going to attempt to predict the future, but I would hope that no child would be taught by their parents to be so materialistic and crass about money tbh. I do hope they have plenty of good stories to share though after the weekend without it becoming a pissing contest, but I'd hope the teachers would see to that too tbh.

    I'll worry about that one once we get there, but similar scenario I imagine.


    To be perfectly honest with you, my child is 11 now and he will be making his Confirmation next year, and it'll be a similar scenario for us too, I absolutely hate the idea that my child would ever think he was better than anyone else. I absolutely do understand where you're coming from though, but honestly IMO you really know you've settled into the Irish mentality when even as an atheist you're instilling in your child the attitude of "keeping up with the Jones".

    I get the pressure, I really do, but it doesn't have to be that way either is all I'm saying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I think by making a big deal out of him having a day for himself you are still buying into the significance of the day Kiwi. I completely get where you are coming from and I've been there myself with my older child but I don't think you should make a big deal of it. By all means make the most of the day and I gave mine the day off when the kids went in to have their photos taken but leave it at that I think. It might not even bother him, my daughter wasn't pushed on it and never felt left out, no one ever teased her. I think kids are a lot less bothered by all this than we think.

    One Eye out of interest why is your son making confirmation? I didn't think you were Catholic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    But surely you'll have explained to him about the significance of the event and explained that it's not that the children are getting treats for swearing allegiance to a religion?

    They are not? What are they getting them for then? The way communion is done keeps a full supply of little Catholics coming because it is presented to them and their parents as an 'Irish cultural milestone'. Its like a 21st or something where there are celebrations, parties and presents. How many 8 year olds do you think are actually excited about the religious/church part of it? How many parents would bother with it if they had to do the preparations in their own time and fully take part?
    It's their parents decision to have their children make their Communion, not the children's decision. The parents are busy enough trying to outdo each other already without you buying into the farcical materialistic competition (in your own way of course, and I do get where you're coming from, I really do, because I had it with my own child when he made his Communion and I requested that people donate to charity instead of giving him money).

    I'm not going to be telling Little Kiwi that he's going to a Premier League Match because of communion. I won't be relating the two at all. His birthday is in June and the Premier League finishes in May. His birthday trip will just happen (hopefully) to coincide with the communion. We are going back to NZ over the school Easter holiday next year and we're going to take him out two weeks before Easter. If we happen to be lucky enough that the communion is
    within two weeks after the Easter holiday, then we will extend the holiday that way, and he will be in NZ when they do communion. Whatever happens he is not going to think that he is missing out on something great, because let's face it kids think that parties and presents are great, hence why so many Irish kids are so excited and enthusiastic about something they probably wouldn't be very interested in otherwise.
    You and I are equals in every way, you're no more or less human than I am, your children are no more or less human than my child. There isn't any difference between them, therefore neither your child nor my child are any more or less human than each other. This is the opportunity you have to remind your children of that fact.

    Yes but we are not treated as equals in the eyes of the state education system are we!
    To be perfectly honest with you, my child is 11 now and he will be making his Confirmation next year, and it'll be a similar scenario for us too, I absolutely hate the idea that my child would ever think he was better than anyone else. I absolutely do understand where you're coming from though, but honestly IMO you really know you've settled into the Irish mentality when even as an atheist you're instilling in your child the attitude of "keeping up with the Jones".

    I'm not instilling my child with any such attitude. I'm instilling in him that there should be no special privilege for people of one particular religion over all other citizens, kind of the opposite to what the State is trying to instill in him via the education system.
    I get the pressure, I really do, but it doesn't have to be that way either is all I'm saying.

    No it doesn't have to be this way, and the sooner it is sorted out and religious rituals are removed from the primary school curriculum the better!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think by making a big deal out of him having a day for himself you are still buying into the significance of the day Kiwi. I completely get where you are coming from and I've been there myself with my older child but I don't think you should make a big deal of it. By all means make the most of the day and I gave mine the day off when the kids went in to have their photos taken but leave it at that I think. It might not even bother him, my daughter wasn't pushed on it and never felt left out, no one ever teased her. I think kids are a lot less bothered by all this than we think.

    One Eye out of interest why is your son making confirmation? I didn't think you were Catholic.

    I'm not going to place any significance on the day. He knows he's not doing communion and he's happy with that, but he's not yet aware of the party/bouncy castle/present side of it. He's about to find out next weekend when we attend a friends communion. He has asked why his friend is having a party and I had to say that a lot of people have parties for their communions. This has only come up in the last 24 hours and I'm sure I've more questions coming. Little Kiwi is a very social kid in a very close knit group of friends, all who do GAA, Rugby and swimming lessons together and are constantly at each other's houses, they run to each other when dropped off at school etc. The other 5 boys in the group are all doing communion. If Little Kiwi becomes upset that the other boys are having parties etc and having the after communion do at the school when he won't be there, I'm just going to say to him "yeah but we are going to Manchester that weekend" or "we will be in NZ then" and leave it at that. I'm not going to have him just sitting at home doing nothing while his mates are partying and tell him that it's because he's not Catholic.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    We have been invited to a communion next week. I don't know whether or not we are expected to go to the church, but we are going!
    Snowflake and I went to the first communion thing in the church for the 50% or so of her ET class who did it - a few days before the marriage equality referendum, as it happened. Turned out to be almost impossible to interpret what was going on for her, so we just sat half way down the church and watched thing go by - a mass is a very weird thing if you haven't been to one for ages and need to explain it all to a curious kid.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    And whatever he is doing in school while they do religion will not be anything that looks like a punishment either. It will either be something more interesting or more advantageous than doing religion (getting homework done so none after school). Kids generally see religion as a soft option compared to maths, Irish and English because they just get to listen to stories and colour in. It is not a time where he will be doing extra math or Irish (this is what has happened with this years communion sitter outer and her friends feel sorry for her having to do another math book).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,394 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    eviltwin wrote: »
    One Eye out of interest why is your son making confirmation? I didn't think you were Catholic.


    Yeah, I'm a practicing Catholic alright (not very good at it, why I'm still practicing :p), but he's hoping to make his Confirmation next year. I say "he's hoping" because he actually does want to make his Confirmation, and not for the money or the fitting in or anything else, but genuinely for it's spiritual element.

    The thing about it is though, and we had it yesterday when myself and himself would usually be going to mass, he wanted to go play with his friends. I basically told him that there's no point in him making his Confirmation if he doesn't even want to take half an hour out of the week to go to mass. His friends go to Mosque during the week and he goes with them as he's curious about the spiritual element of Islam too, and I don't mind that because he's learning through immersion rather than indoctrination.

    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    No it doesn't have to be this way, and the sooner it is sorted out and religious rituals are removed from the primary school curriculum the better!


    Kiwi it sounds like you have a good handle on it. I hate the idea of anyone feeling like they have to justify the decisions they make for their children to anyone else and that's why I rarely comment on other people's parenting, because you've raised your child for seven years and there are going to be occasions like this come up time and time again, and you'll know what works best for your child than I ever would. I hope that I didn't come across as interfering or finger wagging as there's nothing worse IMO, and FWIW I actually do agree that the current education system setup for children of parents who aren't Catholic is farcical, and is damaging to Irish society.

    Unfortunately the way it is now too, there are so many stakeholders involved in the Irish education system, each with their own set of priorities that they put before the welfare of the children.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Based on the ops argument we shouldn't let our kids get involved in politics or law enforcement as the politicians and guards covered up the child abuse and therefore allowed it happen.

    Yes, because the systematic abuse, rape, selling and murder of children would only be wrong if the church had done it entirely by themselves. They had friends in the garda and the government help them, so it's not really their fault at all. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    Speaking of first communions, here's an interesting work of art

    rosie_s_tea_party_z_zps5j6l9ohy.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Here's some sort of explanation for the mad picture.
    Abe Lincoln and Barbie seem to be included as part of the modern pantheon of small gods.
    That baby is gonna hit somebody if he doesn't get his slice of meat soon!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Feck communion and "poor child is left out". We will beat it!

    Good for you. I was talking about this with a family member recently who's preschool aged children will probably be in a Catholic school and she's already thinking they will go to Disneyland for communion week. My son won't be in a Catholic school but if he was, I've always felt we'd be going to either Disney or Legoland at communion week. It's not about competing but there is no way on earth I'd let my child sit through months of spending five days a week in a room with 30+ kids all getting increasingly excited about their big party and what they'll be spending their loot on while he has no special once/twice in a lifetime event of his own to look forward to.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    I won't have the slightest problem with Little Kiwi not wanting to do the religious stuff anyway. This evening we stopped at a shop which was near a grotto. For some reason, there were several older women sitting in front of the statue of Mary. I'm not precisely sure what they were doing, but they appeared to be staring at it. Little Kiwi said "Mummy, what are they doing? Are they praying to the statue of Mary?" I replied impartially that yes, I think that must be what they are doing. Little Kiwi said "I don't mean to be mean, but that's the exact same as praying to the wall."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I must say I find all this ostentatious competition between parents of the kids revolting. Be it Catholic girls and boys getting dolled up up to the nines, the greed and the money or nonreligious parents competing to make sure their kids have some mad party to compensate for not being dressed as mirangue. It's pretty sad really.

    Our kids will get communion if their father wants to take them to mass (and won't if it depends on me) but if there is one thing I am certain about is that I'm not letting it get out of hand. I don't want to go all 'starving kids in Africa' but I certainly hope I am not introducing them to the vulgar one upmanship at the age of seven or eight.

    As for opening post, making a stand all the time is terribly dull thing. Especially because societies have to look at themselves too and ask why so many vulnerable people and especially vulnerable kids were put in position to be abused.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,394 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I must say I find all this ostentatious competition between parents of the kids revolting. Be it Catholic girls and boys getting dolled up up to the nines, the greed and the money or nonreligious parents competing to make sure their kids have some mad party to compensate for not being dressed as mirangue. It's pretty sad really.

    Our kids will get communion if their father wants to take them to mass (and won't if it depends on me) but if there is one thing I am certain about is that I'm not letting it get out of hand. I don't want to go all 'starving kids in Africa' but I certainly hope I am not introducing them to the vulgar one upmanship at the age of seven or eight.

    As for opening post, making a stand all the time is terribly dull thing. Especially because societies have to look at themselves too and ask why so many vulnerable people and especially vulnerable kids were put in position to be abused.


    I used to wonder actually when I was younger, was my generations vulgar obsession with materialism a symptom of Irish culture being influenced by a steady diet of American MTV shows, and then I realised as I got older that no, Irish culture was always like this, having to outdo their neighbours even if it meant they couldn't put a meal on the table for the next year because they were after getting themselves into crippling debt just to show off to the neighbours. The Celtic Tiger years were some of the worst excesses I've ever witnessed - pink hummer stretch limos and horse drawn pink pumpkin carriages pulling up to the Church and squeezing in among the 4x4 city slicker SUVs!! Honest to... well, you get the idea :pac:

    Even reading through Irish history, there was always this thing of having to show you were better than your neighbours, and the RCC milked our sense of haughy indignation, self-righteousness, ego and narcissism for all it was worth by having people who had fcukall after a shìtty crop failure STILL competing with each other to give the last of what was left of their crops to the Church! :rolleyes:

    The OP has a point, but honestly it was made so badly I couldn't even be arsed. I sat in mass there yesterday and not once, not twice, but THREE fcuking times the money baskets were passed around, and the Church was packed, packed, and there were €10s and €20s in the baskets EACH time!! This is EVERY Sunday, and I'm just thinking to myself as the guy is reaching to pass me the basket for another round - "Will you fcuk off mate, I come here to pray, not to pay!!" I don't even need to say it to him as we both look each other in the eye and he knows he's taking the piss, and he knows I'm absolutely infuriated that he appears to have no shame whatsoever about his behaviour. There's no humility, there's no graciousness, there's nothing! Just a gormless old fart with his grubby shovel hands out again for more money. The same chap probably still has his own Communion money ffs! He's moved on to the next pew before I lose my shìt and fcuk the baskets out of his hands... It absolutely enrages me the sort of self-centred greed and one-upmanship I see in ALL sectors of Irish society, the expectation and the entitlement.

    I've had to stop working with some "charity" organisations because I literally could not stomach the utter corruption and greed and vulture culture I witnessed - one particular charity which shall remain unidentified which had €7m (that's seven MILLION btw) in assets on it's balance sheet, donations of €75k and upwards on a regular basis left to them in wills, funding from the HSE and private donors that had my work colleagues tell me I "worked the room like a two-bit whore" to squeeze cheques with three figure sums from their fat fingers. Even thinking about it now I'm actually ashamed I had to do that, but I believed that the money was going to fund resources for the people who needed them the most. It was in it's bollocks. I'd say if there was even two cents in every euro going to fund resources I'm being generous. Most of it was going on funding the lifestyles of the people who actually managed the money, with everyone taking their cut, while I was breaking my balls for nothing, because I believed that eventually the money would trickle into funding resources while I was providing what resources I had for free to them because it was a good cause.

    When I got talking with the MD about the running of the organisation and the way it was being so inefficiently run because the people weren't getting the resources they needed, he seemed more interested in my background than actually talking about how funds were being siphoned and the thought occurred to me that this a-hole was lining me up to be the face of their next campaign. That's when I figured they could find themselves another poster boy, I'm out.

    That was just one organisation btw, of many, many "charities" I've worked with over the last 20 years, and if anyone thinks the RCC are good at exploitation and sucking the very life and soul out of people, the RCC are positively amateurs in comparison to some of the organisations I've experienced.

    The problem OP isn't with any particular organisation or club, or religion or anything else, the problem is human nature, in all of us. Don't get me wrong though, the vast, vast majority of people I've worked with and met in the course of my work and in any of the organisations I've worked in have been truly hard working, incredible, amazing people, and that's why I count someone like Michael Nugent as someone I very much admire, because the man is a tireless and dedicated worker, truly dedicated to what he believes in, and it's a shame I feel anyway that he and his organisation don't get the national recognition I feel anyway that they deserve. I may not entirely agree with the policies and aims of Atheist Ireland, but fcuk me I have to admire their dedication all the same, all the more admirable when I see the humility and lack of egotism every time I've ever watched Michael in action and read his contributions to this forum (I've always wanted to ask him is that the same red tee shirt he wears all the time, and if so, what brand of washing powder is he using that he manages to keep it's colour so vibrant!! :D).




    Christ I held that one in a while! :pac:

    TL:DR; In short OP, that's people for you, and you could spend your whole life trying to figure them out, or just get on with your own life and where you see people in need, help them out without being a cnut about it, and without expecting anything in return. It pays better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,441 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Would it be wrong to name the organisation with 7mill on its balance sheet?
    I'm curoius.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭05eaftqbrs9jlh


    Kiwi in IE wrote:
    They won't be in competition with each other, but when Johnny tells him on the Monday after communion that he had a party and got paid €1000 for being Catholic, Little Kiwi can say "cool, what are you going to buy? I had a great weekend too, I went to Old Trafford", rather than "You're really lucky, I wish I was Catholic so I got €1000 too".
    It's funny, because I was fully behind this plan until this hypocrisy struck me; so you reject the mass adoption of Catholicism but you buy into football. Just replace one form of meaningless nonsense with another, I suppose.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I must say I find all this ostentatious competition between parents of the kids revolting. Be it Catholic girls and boys getting dolled up up to the nines, the greed and the money or nonreligious parents competing to make sure their kids have some mad party to compensate for not being dressed as mirangue. It's pretty sad really.

    Our kids will get communion if their father wants to take them to mass (and won't if it depends on me) but if there is one thing I am certain about is that I'm not letting it get out of hand. I don't want to go all 'starving kids in Africa' but I certainly hope I am not introducing them to the vulgar one upmanship at the age of seven or eight.

    Wow way to be super condescending and totally miss the point. You don't put a small child in the position of watching everyone around them get an amazing present and have them be one of the very few, or maybe the only one, left out. If this was done for any other reason people would be up in arms. A lot of schools ban kids handing out birthday party invites on school grounds for the express reason that they want to minimise the feelings of being left out for the children not invited. Most parents know that you either invite a small number of your child's friends to a party or all the class but never 32 out of 34 kids. Exclusion is a form of bullying and can do serious damage to a child. And this is a case of deliberate exclusion from a great day out as the church knows that many parents go through with something they consider a farce just so their child won't be left out. It's a real case of "You could save a lot more souls with roller-skates and Easy-Bake ovens, than with this 2000-page sleeping pill."

    So while my child is unlikely to ever be in a position where he is one of the only kids being excluded from this lifetime event and chance to accumulate a four figure sum for himself. If he was, I'd be making sure he had his own lifetime event to look forward to at the same time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap



    Christ I held that one in a while! :pac:

    TL:DR; In short OP, that's people for you, and you could spend your whole life trying to figure them out, or just get on with your own life and where you see people in need, help them out without being a cnut about it, and without expecting anything in return. It pays better.

    Bloody good post OEJ. I don't always (or even often) agree with you, but I'm with you 100% on this one!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    There us a difference between making sure child is not left out to planning a trip to Disneyland because neighbors hired a bouncy castle.

    How can those kids whose parents can't afford bouncy castles, big parties and trips away ever manage to grow up in well rounded individuals? I'm not against treating your child but all the talk here was about making it bigger and better. Good for you that you can afford it but I don't think my kids are bulied because they won't get a trip to Disneyland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭Optimalprimerib


    Parents are teaching their kids how to cherish and adore their one true god. I don't see what's wrong with that. At the end of the day we all worship the same thing , that's why we devote our lives to this worship. Some say they don't but they really do. Without our one true god we would be in suffering as we can witness all around us.

    What is our one true god? Money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    meeeeh wrote: »
    There us a difference between making sure child is not left out to planning a trip to Disneyland because neighbors hired a bouncy castle.

    How can those kids whose parents can't afford bouncy castles, big parties and trips away ever manage to grow up in well rounded individuals? I'm not against treating your child but all the talk here was about making it bigger and better. Good for you that you can afford it but I don't think my kids are bulied because they won't get a trip to Disneyland.

    It's not about the bouncing castle, that's barely the cherry on the enormous sundae. It's having a day on a bouncy castle while all day long adult friends and relatives show up and hand you a card with €50-200 inside. Children who come from large extended families, which is still pretty much the norm in this country, can end the day with close to or over €1000. The talk among communion kids tends to be 5% bouncy castle and princess dress, 95% great swag they'll buy with their takings. (And 0% love for their one true god.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    ....I don't mean to be mean, but that's the exact same as praying to the wall."

    He's right, god can hear your prayers anywhere. It was Pentecostal. I know that because the secular state that I am currently on holiday in has it as a national holiday.


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Maybe if people stopped giving kids money for communion & confirmation it wouldn't be about the money anymore.
    Maybe there wouldn't be so many holy children anymore...........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 189 ✭✭markc2951


    Are people just not aware that the Catholic Church molested 10's of 1000's of kids around the world and covered it up, or do they just not care?

    Why are people cool with kids being molested, especially being parents themselves? And I believe they must be "cool" with it, otherwise why would they voluntarily choose to associate with this very same organisation.

    And not only that, a few weeks before their communion, they send their kid into a box with a dirty old man who asks them about all the naught things they've been getting up to lately!! aka 'first confession'. They're 8 - they have nothing to confess to you, ya big weirdo FFS!

    Am I the one that's crazy here? Is it okay to molest thousands of kids? People seem cool with it.


    Wow were you ever at mass in your life?
    First confessions in my area was done on the alter in front of everyone although you couldn't hear anything but could see it all..I think your a disgrace posting such a comment and tarring all priests with the one brush,and that's coming from someone who goes to mass once or twice a year.shame on you


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭cowboyBuilder


    Vast majority of people do it just to keep up appearances and "its what you do" mentality... unfortunately it gives the RCC stats to call these people believers when most don't give a ****e about the religion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    It's funny, because I was fully behind this plan until this hypocrisy struck me; so you reject the mass adoption of Catholicism but you buy into football. Just replace one form of meaningless nonsense with another, I suppose.

    Yeah, unfortunately though you can't insist that your 7 year old boy has interests that are exactly the same as your own. I'm not a fan of Star Wars or Avengers either really (although I'd be happy enough to have his poster of Thor (Chris Hemsworth) in my bedroom. ;)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    Are all of these threads like for like. Anytime I've clicked to a link in Atheism & Agnosticism bar once I think, it was a Catholic bashing thread.
    I click again and the same thing - the OP with a ridiculous statement with no aim for balance whatsoever and supported by a number on that side.

    Then we have the "defenders of the faith" coming out with the consistent "God is good, we must all bow before God" attitude without any consideration for any flaws (which is the head in the sand attitude that allowed all the abuse to continue).

    There are of course some reasoned debaters on both sides but JHC, this really stifles constructive debate


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Anytime I've clicked to a link in Atheism & Agnosticism bar once I think, it was a Catholic bashing thread.
    You should distinguish between criticizing an idea (which is fine), criticizing the actions of a person (which is generally fine) and criticizing the person (which is not fine).

    Phrases like "catholic-bashing" are intended not to illuminate a debate, but - like the unhelpful word "islamophobia" - intended instead to shut down debate by making it appear that criticism of an idea amounts to criticism of the person holding the idea.

    The distinction might seem jesuitical, but it's important to understand how language is used and abused for political ends.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robindch wrote: »
    The distinction might seem jesuitical, but it's important to understand how language is used and abused for political ends.
    Verily, like unto choirs of angels :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 328 ✭✭Kenny Bania


    markc2951 wrote: »
    Wow were you ever at mass in your life?
    First confessions in my area was done on the alter in front of everyone although you couldn't hear anything but could see it all..I think your a disgrace posting such a comment and tarring all priests with the one brush,and that's coming from someone who goes to mass once or twice a year.shame on you

    Well my first confession, and every other one I know of, was done in a confession box - you know that dark wooden box that every church has at the side of the pews? My description was accurate.

    And don't try the "few bad apples" argument - it's never held water. Any priests that didn't partake were well aware - and that, by definition, makes them complicit. They all knew what was going on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    robindch wrote: »
    You should distinguish between criticizing an idea (which is fine), criticizing the actions of a person (which is generally fine) and criticizing the person (which is not fine).

    Phrases like "catholic-bashing" are intended not to illuminate a debate, but - like the unhelpful word "islamophobia" - intended instead to shut down debate by making it appear that criticism of an idea amounts to criticism of the person holding the idea.

    The distinction might seem jesuitical, but it's important to understand how language is used and abused for political ends.

    The phrase "Catholic bashing" was not intended to shut down debate but intended to describe the post.

    The OP criticised The Catholic Church in its entirety, then the general public implying "people" were cool with the idea of kids being molested and follows this with claiming people send their kids "into a box with a dirty old man".
    Are people just not aware that the Catholic Church molested 10's of 1000's of kids around the world and covered it up, or do they just not care?

    Why are people cool with kids being molested, especially being parents themselves? And I believe they must be "cool" with it, otherwise why would they voluntarily choose to associate with this very same organisation.

    And not only that, a few weeks before their communion, they send their kid into a box with a dirty old man who asks them about all the naught things they've been getting up to lately!! aka 'first confession'. They're 8 - they have nothing to confess to you, ya big weirdo FFS!

    Am I the one that's crazy here? Is it okay to molest thousands of kids? People seem cool with it.

    The OP doesn't appear to have any motive except to criticise the people who send their kids "into a box" . Its a rant over first holy communion and the gist of it is quite clearly criticising "the person" or more precisely "people".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    And don't try the "few bad apples" argument - it's never held water. Any priests that didn't partake were well aware - and that, by definition, makes them complicit. They all knew what was going on.
    I have to say, I don't think that argument ever held water. I've known plenty of priests (from more than one Christian denomination) who would never have been complicit at all; all of them would and do find such abuses abhorrent. What was done was bad enough without engaging full conspiracy mode.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭flutered


    a kid on our road got the first communion last sunday, people arrived from various parts of the globe, all attended the church, all were asked not to give money gifts, all bar three or four attended the cermony, afterwards there was tea and cake etc in the community hall, then back to the house where the bouncy castle was the star attraction for the kids, the adults had food and drink, a tent had been erected for the purpose, the food was prepared by friends of the family, drink was provided by both the family and friends, i was not in attendence but it was supposed to have been a fantastic day for all, people who had not met in years spent the day reviving old memorys etc, it ended up around five, with everyone helping to clean and tidy, when i think of how this day went, against how others are trying to degrade such days, i have to wonder at the reasoning behind attacking such events, every one knows about the pedo sch1t, but it was not confined to the c.c. look at kincora up north, look at the bbc in the uk, the thread started went on about how his kid would go to see a game across chanell, that they would remember for the rest of their lives, i am wondering if it is the adult which will enjoy it the most, i assume that there will be 70-90k at the game, big crowd, big q's, big waiting, big travel, all so as a seven year old could enjoy a day out, to me this has to be more overwheleming and frightning than enjoyment for the kid, then the journey home, the tieredness, the overtierdness, me i dunno


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Could they not have had the exact same day without the communion though?

    I didn't see anything there about the child receiving communion & whatever that means religiously.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I would think it doesn't matter if it's religious occasion or not but it has a lot more to do with what is important to parents. I have distaste for big events so there probably wouldn't be a big party and since we are small family and half of relatives outside Ireland even if gifts were given our kids wouldn't come out with huge amounts. I don't feel sorry for my kids in fact I think they are damn lucky, they live in comfortable house in nice neighborhood, they get everything they need and while we don't consider ourselves parents of the month, they are happy and loved kids. And that is why I find the idea kids would be bullied without big expensive day out insulting and out frankly out of touch with reality.

    As a society we do like a bit of ritual though. Be it the wedding (a signature in registry office would be enough), christening or naming ceremonies, even funerals have a degree of ritual to it. So I can appreciate why kids go through different sacraments without big soul searching about depth of their or their parent's religion.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Qs


    All of those things have separate meanings though. A wedding is a declaration of love and an official joining of a family with or without religious elements. And a funeral is a celebration/mourning of a person who has died. These are human rituals that make sense in their own right. A communion or confirmation has no meaning outside of its religious significance. Therefore it should be a time when those involved seriously think about their faith.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    flutered wrote: »
    [...] i have to wonder at the reasoning behind attacking such events, every one knows about the pedo sch1t [...]
    What on earth are you talking about - who's attacking what? You really don't need to over-egg this omelette.

    As for why people here don't like this kind of childhood indoctrination, well in addition to some of thinking that you shouldn't tell kids frightening lies, maybe you answered that yourself in the second half of the sentence anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Qs wrote: »
    All of those things have separate meanings though. A wedding is a declaration of love and an official joining of a family with or without religious elements. And a funeral is a celebration/mourning of a person who has died. These are human rituals that make sense in their own right. A communion or confirmation has no meaning outside of its religious significance. Therefore it should be a time when those involved seriously think about their faith.

    Do they? I see no other reason for wedding but legal in countries where needed. Where I come from the cohabiting is equalized in law so the marriage rates are significantly. I feel there is no need for me to declare my love or officially join family (what nonsense is that anyway, you are either accepted or not and no official joining will change that).

    I would think funeral helps with grieving but it is still a ritual. You can attach any kind of meaning to anything anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,394 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Do they? I see no other reason for wedding but legal in countries where needed. Where I come from the cohabiting is equalized in law so the marriage rates are significantly. I feel there is no need for me to declare my love or officially join family (what nonsense is that anyway, you are either accepted or not and no official joining will change that).

    I would think funeral helps with grieving but it is still a ritual. You can attach any kind of meaning to anything anyway.


    I'm not sure of the legal position where you're from meeeeh, but in Ireland, people are only considered a family with regard to the Irish Constitution once they are married:

    Non-traditional family units

    Article 41.1.1° of the Constitution "recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law", and guarantees its protection by the state. As of 29 August 2015, Article 41.4 states "Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex", thereby allowing both opposite and same-sex partners to marry. However, these rights and protections are not extended to every family unit, such as single parents or unmarried opposite-sex co-habiters.

    The institution of marriage enjoys a privileged position in the Constitution. A family exclusively based on marriage is envisaged: Article 41.3.1° states that "[t]he State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded". The effect is that non-marital unit members are not entitled to any of the encompassed protections, including those under the realms of tax, inheritance, and social welfare, granted by Article 41. For example, in State (Nicolaou) v. An Bord Uchtála [1966] IR 567, where an unmarried father, who had become estranged from the mother of his child some months after living and caring for the same child together, was prevented from invoking the provisions of Article 41 to halt the mother's wishes of putting the child up for adoption. The then Mr. Justice Walsh of the Supreme Court stated that "the family referred to in [Article 41 was] the family which is founded on the institution of marriage".

    Source: Constitution of Ireland, Wikipedia

    In short, it's the official joining changes everything, in Ireland at least.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    To be honest, I do not understand how people still darken the doors of the Roman Catholic organisation's churches. I simple cannot understand it. The organisation is red rotten. The next generation will not be so two faced.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    In Ireland you'd be very foolish not to get married if you're in a serious, long-term monogamous relationship you don't plan on leaving. We recently did some legal stuff with our solicitor and he has people coming in all the time wanting to formalise their relationships with all sorts of lenghty contracts. He tells them it's far cheaper and more efficient to get married. One of the main reasons we got married was to simplify our tax and finance arrangments and because we wanted children. Who knows what'll happen but in Ireland you have very little protection in a relationship if you're not married, even simple things like next of kin rights can be difficult.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I'm not sure of the legal position where you're from meeeeh, but in Ireland, people are only considered a family with regard to the Irish Constitution once they are married:
    Oh I am aware of that. I sloppily read the bit and took it as symbolical joining of the family. My point was you can do a wedding in the same way as business transaction (a woman I know got married during a lunch break because it helped getting a mortgage) which is the legal bit, all other fuss is pure ritual and unnecessary but people still like to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 760 ✭✭✭mach1982


    Typical , you tar everyone with the same brush . Not ever priest, deacon . bishop arch-bishop or nun molested kids , just like not every German in World War 2 killed a jewish person or not ever white person in South Africa was cruel to the Blacks . The culture and and society was very different, and while that is no excuse you have remember that is was what happen behind closes doers stay behind close doors, that is don't rock the boat and stick to status quo .There was no such think as whistleblowes back then , and if you did you ere label either trouble make, or disloyal. There a good an bad people in ever walk of life , the world is not just broken into black or white.

    Anyway until the child turns 18 it parent responsibility to bring them up an if they chooses bring them up in what ever faith wish or leave for the child to decide later that their decision . Dose effect it affect you if child child makes their communion or first confession no. The point a bout kids not knowing what to confess , well if the were taught the Catiascisim then the know exactly what a the definition of sin is .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I would think it doesn't matter if it's religious occasion or not but it has a lot more to do with what is important to parents. I have distaste for big events so there probably wouldn't be a big party and since we are small family and half of relatives outside Ireland even if gifts were given our kids wouldn't come out with huge amounts. I don't feel sorry for my kids in fact I think they are damn lucky, they live in comfortable house in nice neighborhood, they get everything they need and while we don't consider ourselves parents of the month, they are happy and loved kids. And that is why I find the idea kids would be bullied without big expensive day out insulting and out frankly out of touch with reality.

    As a society we do like a bit of ritual though. Be it the wedding (a signature in registry office would be enough), christening or naming ceremonies, even funerals have a degree of ritual to it. So I can appreciate why kids go through different sacraments without big soul searching about depth of their or their parent's religion.

    Are you deliberately missing the point? It has almost nothing whatsoever to do with the ritual. It has everything to do with an 8 year old child being the only one of 30+ children who day spend nearly ever day with, not being the one to get €1000+. Being the only child not spending months on end discussing what they will buy and have bought with their money. That will have an impact on the child whether you like it or not and it's truly 'out of touch with reality' to think otherwise.

    Maybe because this isn't something you have grown up with you can't really understand it. It is all about the money. Deep down I'm an anti-capitalist, anarchist who has opted out of so many mainstream expectations. I live on very little money, almost everything I own is second-hand, I value nothing but spending time with loved ones. My parents have similar attitudes. And without even thinking about it, I can tell you exactly how much money I got for my communion, who gave me what and what I bought with the money. So can most people I've talked to about it. It's seared in. I remember endless discussions in the schoolyard about who got how much. Even years later it was a repeated topic of conversation. And it's a huge part of why otherwise rational people still remain in the RCC.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I got £50 for my communion. I still remember the name of the person who got the most in our class 25 years later. She got £300.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    I'm all for a coming-of-age/right of passage event for youngsters. However, like most of the posters in this thread I find the hypocrisy of communions disgusting because it extends to the children.


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