Wind energy private corporations and government.

ShowMeTheCash

kbannon wrote: »

I responded to your comment about governments. Was that comment of yours not actually your view?

What??
You said

kbannon wrote: »

When you say put people before profit, one could claim that by reducing the energy produced via fossil fuels and encouraging it through renewable sources, they are!

This doesn't suit your viewpoint however.

You are making the argument that private corporations are putting people before profit buy making the world a greener place and that this goes against my view point, nothing to do with government.

I am saying my view point is not against wind energy my view is about the privatisation of wind energy.

kbannon wrote: »

Like medicines and many other innovations? Yeah, in some cases private innovation is better than ill funded state projects.

And sometimes they are bad ideas.
Like medicine, let's make medicine a private enterprise no medical cards for anyone, if you cannot pay go away, again sounds like an awesome idea!

ShowMeTheCash

unseenfootage wrote: »

The 90 % energy that Ireland imports is mostly oil, gas, coal and some electricity.

Yeah I think this was covered, the fossil fuels imported generate local power stations we are generating it with imported fuel.

Water John

At this stage Cash, you seem to be having a discussion with yourself.
I'll come back from fear you'll get lonely.
You state that the planning was turned down by DCC. That then contradicts what you post about LA's giving planning for the rates.
Any planning is publicly advertised. Likely that there was a local consultation day. All planning application are on the internet.
If anyone made a valid submission to the LA, they were also entitled to make a third party appeal to ABP. They would also have been notified of same.
Get your facts right. But then they might get in the way of you bias.

BTW, all Donegal is not windy. That is just a nonsense statement. Any developer will be looking for wind speeds above 8m/s average. that rules out a lot of areas. Couple that with being 4/500 metres from the nearest uninvolved dwelling, scenic areas, built up areas etc.

You throw out generalities. You can be well assured, no planner would risk not doing a project like a wind farm by the book, knowing it more than likely will end up at ABP and possibly the courts.

djpbarry

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Like medicine, let's make medicine a private enterprise no medical cards for anyone, if you cannot pay go away, again sounds like an awesome idea!

I suspect the poster was referring to the development of medicines, not the provision.

Seth Brundle

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

You are making the argument that private corporations are putting people before profit buy making the world a greener place and that this goes against my view point, nothing to do with government.

I am saying my view point is not against wind energy my view is about the privatisation of wind energy.

Firstly, you said "That being said the Government should be putting people before profit, the corruption etc in our government is a separate issue.
A corporation is all about profit before people always!" - this sentence that i responded to was about the government. I made a valid counter claim regarding the government. I didn't mention private corporations!

Secondly, your posts infer that private = bad, government = good. In the above line you contradicted yourself which I pointed out.

Thirdly, you have an issue with the "privatisation of wind energy" (or rather the harvesting of wind energy. Why?
Do you think a government led windfarm would use a different, more softly-softly approach or make more aesthetically pleasing turbines or what?

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

And sometimes they are bad ideas.
Like medicine, let's make medicine a private enterprise no medical cards for anyone, if you cannot pay go away, again sounds like an awesome idea!

You seem to be confusing my point about medical innovations with the HSE and medical system. You do realise that the two are significantly different?

ShowMeTheCash

kbannon wrote: »

Firstly, you said "That being said the Government should be putting people before profit, the corruption etc in our government is a separate issue.
A corporation is all about profit before people always!" - this sentence that i responded to was about the government. I made a valid counter claim regarding the government. I didn't mention private corporations!

You did? Counter claim to what?
You said:

"When you say put people before profit, one could claim that by reducing the energy produced via fossil fuels and encouraging it through renewable sources, they are!"

Who are "they" are you talking about government here or corporations?

I said the government should always act in the interest of the people, that is their job!
What are you on about counter claim??

kbannon wrote: »

Secondly, your posts infer that private = bad, government = good. In the above line you contradicted yourself which I pointed out.

I think perhaps you are trying to simply and this is where you are going wrong.
At no point have I said the private sector is bad and the government good nor am I trying to argue such a childish notion.

I have already stated:

"I am all for free enterprise is most things, it helps promote a competitive industrial sector. But natural resources or naturally occurring resources I feel need to be guarded to benefit the state not corporations."

My argument is solely on wind energy and corporations owning it.

My comments about the government are idealistic in that our government should be working on behalf of the people.
Corruption and the inadequacies within government though is technically a different conversation.

kbannon wrote: »

Thirdly, you have an issue with the "privatisation of wind energy" (or rather the harvesting of wind energy. Why?
Do you think a government led windfarm would use a different, more softly-softly approach or make more aesthetically pleasing turbines or what?

It's about selling off a naturally occurring energy source to developers who exploit an already corrupt planning authority.
And that is not an accusation, I am simply reiterating what has already been outlined in the State on national planning system report, it went as far to say Donegal was the worst!

Ideally a government led project would not put profit before people in terms of location of wind farms also economically an investment in this area could benefit the state and not just the corporations, other countries have led projects like this and they have been successful.

kbannon wrote: »

You seem to be confusing my point about medical innovations with the HSE and medical system. You do realise that the two are significantly different?

No no I got it the first time I was just making a point that in some areas putting people before profit and not profit before people is actually a good idea.

But let's look at the point you make.
Medical innovations like equipment and drugs?

Not all innovations are profitable nor are all drugs, you might remember in the news the story of Martin Shkreli who tried to up the cost of AIDS medication 5000% his reason was simple, as a pharmaceutical company AIDS medication is not a profitable market to be in.

A lot of medical innovations as you put it are heavily subsidised by government money.

If left to the private sector solely, only the profitable illnesses would get developed.

ShowMeTheCash

Water John wrote: »

BTW a wind farm project like you mentioned would not have started in 2012.
They had to originally apply for grid and this would have been Gate 3 probably applied and paid for in 2003/4.

Its very diff to spend €300K on a going concern of a business, than to spend it over 10 years in the hope of things coming right without any income from it over that time. It is one hell of a bet in this country.

You are correct about the original app but looking back I think it was 2006.

But looking at the particular people involved in this development I see that they have many fingers in many pie's, they own multiple companies this is not just some guy with his life savings.

These companies will be applying on multiple sites simultaneously and probably hedging their bets, if they want to put up 50 turbines they probably look to 100 proposed sites....

Developers with money in Donegal usually get what the want as per the document I provided.

If I or you tried to do it as a small first time enterprise yes then maybe I would agree that we could be waiting a long time before we see a return.

micosoft

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Ireland does not make electricity we buy most of it in so I see a distinct difference, electricity comes at a cost to Ireland.

Wind energy minus costs should turn a profit and it will be generated locally.

No it doesn't. It buys most of the fuel to generate non renewable electricity such as Coal and Gas abroad but for the most part Ireland is self sufficient for electricity generation.

ShowMeTheCash

micosoft wrote: »

No it doesn't. It buys most of the fuel to generate non renewable electricity such as Coal and Gas abroad but for the most part Ireland is self sufficient for electricity generation.

Sorry not sure what you are saying here.

Are you saying we buy in the energy source from abroad but we make it ourselves therefore that makes us self sufficient?

The hardest part of energy generation is not the power stations it's the resource, you cannot say we are self sufficient if we having to buy in the fuel, that makes no sense.

djpbarry

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Are you saying we buy in the energy source from abroad but we make it ourselves therefore that makes us self sufficient?

I believe microsoft was pointing out that we import large quantities of fuel for electricity generation, rather than large amounts of electricity over interconnectors - it's an important distinction. Nothing was said about self-sufficiency.

ShowMeTheCash

Water John wrote: »

At this stage Cash, you seem to be having a discussion with yourself.
I'll come back from fear you'll get lonely.
You state that the planning was turned down by DCC. That then contradicts what you post about LA's giving planning for the rates.

LA's giving planning for the rates?? Not sure what you mean can you explain?

Water John wrote: »

Any planning is publicly advertised. Likely that there was a local consultation day. All planning application are on the internet.

It was advertised as is any development. A sign went up at the proposed site However there has been a fall out with regards the consultation.
There are some ongoing legal wranglings with the consultation needless to say some feel it was not as transparent as it should of been.

Water John wrote: »

If anyone made a valid submission to the LA, they were also entitled to make a third party appeal to ABP. They would also have been notified of same.
Get your facts right. But then they might get in the way of you bias.

What nonsense are you banging on about???
Submission is made by developer for planning.
People objected
LA - Reject planning
Developer appeals decision
LA - Reject planning
Developer appears decision again
ABP - Override derision and planning is granted

I am not sure what point you are making that people would of been notified each time? Of course they where.... A petition was along with environmental impact studies where submitted all information was presented more or less from the very beginning.
Based on this information the planning proposal was turned down twice, then over turned by ABP.

Water John wrote: »

BTW, all Donegal is not windy. That is just a nonsense statement. Any developer will be looking for wind speeds above 8m/s average. that rules out a lot of areas. Couple that with being 4/500 metres from the nearest uninvolved dwelling, scenic areas, built up areas etc.

OK Donegal is covered in hills, not every location is suitable I was simply making the point when a developer is having an open forum for farmers to come to him if they are interested in leasing land then the idea that topography is the tool used to pick these sites is misleading. There are a lot of good sites that could be used and a lot of bad sites that could still be used.

The area in question was deemed a scenic area an area of heritage and of historical importance as per the DCC and was one of the reason why it was rejected the first two times.

The 4/500 meters is not a lot considering these are 130Meters in height. Back in 2014 a bill stating that a turbine must be at least 10 times the height of the turbine from a dwelling was shot down.

Water John wrote: »

You throw out generalities. You can be well assured, no planner would risk not doing a project like a wind farm by the book, knowing it more than likely will end up at ABP and possibly the courts.

So you can assure me, I feel much better....
I suggest you read the report I posted on the PA.
And from what I gather this is going to the courts.

ShowMeTheCash

djpbarry wrote: »

I believe microsoft was pointing out that we import large quantities of fuel for electricity generation, rather than large amounts of electricity over interconnectors - it's an important distinction. Nothing was said about self-sufficiency.

Microsoft said:

"Ireland is self sufficient for electricity generation."

You cannot be self sufficient if you are importing the fuel.

Markcheese

ShowMeTheCash wrote:

I am saying my view point is not against wind energy my view is about the privatisation of wind energy.

I'm not sure I get your argument with private development of wind energy...
The wind is still there, the companies involved arent using it all up (not like oil or minerals,)..or trying to stop anyone enjoying a cooling breeze, the state isnt selling off a hard built asset , like the national grid,or telecom eireann, nor are the same companies trying to stop anyone using other sites for wind energy... mostly they're not even buying the ground.. they're leasing it... which doesnt preclude any future development of wind energy on the site..
Are you against private gas power station, or even (taken to extreme I know) private farms harvesting sun and ,rain to grow grass for private profit ( or not quite often)

Water John

Cash, when a planning is referred to ABP, they look at it fully. Its almost as if the planning was submitted to them. They do a full analysis. Third party appeals were allowed.

The system is very transparent and very cheap for anyone to access.
Some body has to make the final call and that is ABP.

We have dispersed housing in Ireland. That is traditional of hundreds of not thousands of years, as Seamus Caulfield of Ceidhe Fields can outline.

4/500 metres is plenty for a few turbines. I accept if it is a large dev it should be further back. Dev near my residence, no problem with it.
Another family building near me ATM. They have no issue either.
All research shows actually the numbers anti turbines is very low.

ShowMeTheCash

Markcheese wrote: »

I'm not sure I get your argument with private development of wind energy...
The wind is still there, the companies involved arent using it all up (not like oil or minerals,)..or trying to stop anyone enjoying a cooling breeze, the state isnt selling off a hard built asset , like the national grid,or telecom eireann, nor are the same companies trying to stop anyone using other sites for wind energy... mostly they're not even buying the ground.. they're leasing it... which doesnt preclude any future development of wind energy on the site..
Are you against private gas power station, or even (taken to extreme I know) private farms harvesting sun and ,rain to grow grass for private profit ( or not quite often)

My view point maybe idealistic.
I do not mind homes putting up their own turbines to power their home or solar panels to do the same, becoming more self sufficient i think is a good idea.

I simply think when it comes to commercialisation of renewable energy sources like wind or water or solar we should be looking at this as a project for the people of Ireland and not simply a free for all with developers putting turbines up in locations that put profit before people.

Let say you live in a small community and they put a turbine up in the middle of said community, it impacts that community...

I take on board your point on the lease you could argue this is not forever it is something the government could change. But this then goes back to TTIP and the impact that may have if that goes ahead.

Water John

The biggest problem is 'the jingle in the farmers pocket'.
The green eyed monster of envy. This was quoted to me by one neighbour.
Same guy if he had been paid money for road access he would have no problem with them.

I have no problem if some mechanism is devised that allows locals to opt in to finance and own a minority share. Some type of bond with a fixed or variable return.

ShowMeTheCash

Water John wrote: »

Cash, when a planning is referred to ABP, they look at it fully. Its almost as if the planning was submitted to them. They do a full analysis. Third party appeals were allowed.

The system is very transparent and very cheap for anyone to access.
Some body has to make the final call and that is ABP.

I have never stated otherwise. Granted I was actually unaware of the report before I opened this thread but have since read it.

What I said originally was:

"Recently a wind turbine has been put up in area, the wind turbine had originally been refused planning by the local authority but was overturned to the dismay of residents who are in a fairly close proximity to the turbine itself."

Understandably this upset a lot of people.

I then said in the following post

"I know Donegal CC denied planning I think twice but it was over turned by board pleanala in Dublin.
It has caused an upset as the decision simply got made without any further discussions with local residence."

For the LA to turn it down twice and then for ABP to over rule the LA you can understand why people are upset can you not?

Water John wrote: »

We have dispersed housing in Ireland. That is traditional of hundreds of not thousands of years, as Seamus Caulfield of Ceidhe Fields can outline.

4/500 metres is plenty for a few turbines. I accept if it is a large dev it should be further back. Dev near my residence, no problem with it.
Another family building near me ATM. They have no issue either.
All research shows actually the numbers anti turbines is very low.

Can I ask the height of the turbines in your area and how close you are to them?
Do you get any sun flicker? Does it cast a shadow at any time of the day on your home? Can you hear it?

Personally 4/500 meters on smaller turbines I have no issue with but a turbine that is 130+ meters in height I think requires a larger distance.

ShowMeTheCash

Water John wrote: »

The biggest problem is 'the jingle in the farmers pocket'.
The green eyed monster of envy. This was quoted to me by one neighbour.
Same guy if he had been paid money for road access he would have no problem with them.

I have no problem if some mechanism is devised that allows locals to opt in to finance and own a minority share. Some type of bond with a fixed or variable return.

I agree as with all things in life self interest often out weights a greater good.
A cooperative I think would be a good idea.

Water John

These are big babies, 120 Metres tip height. A number of them, nearest 400 metres.
Noise is of no consequence.
Flicker a few days, twice a year.

There is so much rameis out there, really annoying stuff. I understand a large dev would need to be set back further.

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of people objecting esp when I know what people are really upset about is not having payola for themselves.

ShowMeTheCash

Water John wrote: »

These are big babies, 120 Metres tip height. A number of them, nearest 400 metres.
Noise is of no consequence.
Flicker a few days, twice a year.

There is so much rameis out there, really annoying stuff. I understand a large dev would need to be set back further.

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of people objecting esp when I know what people are really upset about is not having payola for themselves.

The development is nowhere near me, I am essentially a glen away so it has no impact on me whatsoever.

Older I get I just see greed greed and more greed, actually I am with this guy

unseenfootage

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Sorry not sure what you are saying here.

Are you saying we buy in the energy source from abroad but we make it ourselves therefore that makes us self sufficient?

The hardest part of energy generation is not the power stations it's the resource, you cannot say we are self sufficient if we having to buy in the fuel, that makes no sense.

It seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. With all due respect you really shouldn't be debating these issues.
It may be a good idea to get a grasp on the fundamentals of energy systems. Different fuel types, where is it sourced, generation, renewables ,transmission, distribution and consumption.

www.seai.ie is a good place to start.

djpbarry

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I simply think when it comes to commercialisation of renewable energy sources like wind or water or solar we should be looking at this as a project for the people of Ireland and not simply a free for all with developers putting turbines up in locations that put profit before people.

Let say you live in a small community and they put a turbine up in the middle of said community, it impacts that community...

You seem to be primarily taking issue with the siting of the turbine, rather than the ownership of it?

micosoft

djpbarry wrote: »

You seem to be primarily taking issue with the siting of the turbine, rather than the ownership of it?

TBH I am stuggling to understand what the OP objects to - they have raised everything from TTIP, Banks, Private Sector vs Public Sector Development, Community Generation, Corruption, Planning Reg's, energy independence, prospecting/extraction licensing regimes in a stream of consciousness.

I think it's up to the OP to clearly lay out how they think the country should develop and generate energy in a coherent fashion and why that would be better than the current model with clear evidence.

ShowMeTheCash

unseenfootage wrote: »

It seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. With all due respect you really shouldn't be debating these issues.
It may be a good idea to get a grasp on the fundamentals of energy systems. Different fuel types, where is it sourced, generation, renewables ,transmission, distribution and consumption.

www.seai.ie is a good place to start.

All due respect it is easy to make such claims then add nothing. You add a link, not a passage not a section of the website but just a flat link either you are lazy and have not read the information you provide or I could also argue you have no place debating the simplest of topics.

I have said Ireland imports most of its electricity either directly or indirectly.
Ireland imports 80% of all fossil fuels, what part of this is overly complicated? And what part am I not grasping?

http://www.nowireland.ie/faqs.html#a1

Just some points from the above link

"At present, most of Ireland’s energy is derived from burning fossil fuels, either directly in the home or indirectly in power stations."

"Ireland is the fourth least energy secure country in Europe, meaning that we rely on imports for our fuel."

So as I do not know what I am talking about please educate me, how much of Irelands energy does Ireland generate itself without importing it directly or indirectly via imported fuels, and please site whatever figure you come up with.

ShowMeTheCash

djpbarry wrote: »

You seem to be primarily taking issue with the siting of the turbine, rather than the ownership of it?

I think they go hand in hand. A community led or cooperative led project I feel would site turbines in a place that is best for the community and ultimately would work for the community.
Developer led applications tend to be the more economically feasible.

There is a right way to do something and a wrong way to do something then there is a whole lot of space in the middle.

I am not suggesting we trying and hash out some utopian society where everything is done for the good of man kind but in our society there are areas like renewable energy that needs to be looked at more carefully.

Again this thread was not opened because of any hard position it was more primarily the pros and cons and to seek out what if any legislation is currently in place. What role the government currently takes, how many private enterprises that currently operate in the state with regards wind energy.

ShowMeTheCash

micosoft wrote: »

TBH I am stuggling to understand what the OP objects to - they have raised everything from TTIP, Banks, Private Sector vs Public Sector Development, Community Generation, Corruption, Planning Reg's, energy independence, prospecting/extraction licensing regimes in a stream of consciousness.

I think it's up to the OP to clearly lay out how they think the country should develop and generate energy in a coherent fashion and why that would be better than the current model with clear evidence.

The debate is on renewable energy which in an emerging area so it is not a case of arguing why my idea is better than the current model.
I am asking the question what should the future of energy look like for our state?

My personal opinion with renewable energy is that people should be put before profit which kind of flies in the face of any private sector enterprise.

I have stated other countries have done this, for example like Norway with stat oil it is a government owned enterprise and the monies made from such enterprise go back into the country.
Canada do something a little different, they allow private enterprises but the state get an equity share.

I am against letting developers have free reign in this space.
I am not saying private enterprises cannot operate but I feel there needs to be something and something more.... Government led, community led take you pick

ShowMeTheCash

unseenfootage wrote: »

It seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. With all due respect you really shouldn't be debating these issues.
It may be a good idea to get a grasp on the fundamentals of energy systems. Different fuel types, where is it sourced, generation, renewables ,transmission, distribution and consumption.

www.seai.ie is a good place to start.

Just in case the last post was too long to keep your attention:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Ireland

Nice and simple

In 2014 Ireland presently sources about 70% of its electricity from fossil gas,[3] with 95% of the supply coming from overseas.

whatstherush

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I am not saying private enterprises cannot operate but I feel there needs to be something and something more....

This is the exact situation right now. Private companies develop wind farms and the state in the form of the ESB and Bord na Mona develop them too. Where do their profits go

ShowMeTheCash

whatstherush wrote: »

This is the exact situation right now. Private companies develop wind farms and the state in the form of the ESB and Bord na Mona develop them too. Where do their profits go

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/esb-profits-up-43-as-group-pays-final-dividened-to-state-1.2572354

Where it all goes in the end your guess is as good as mine but the report does talk about how much is paid back to the exchequer.

Total dividends paid during the past ten years by ESB to the Exchequer amount to almost €1.5 billion.

whatstherush

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/esb-profits-up-43-as-group-pays-final-dividened-to-state-1.2572354

Where it all goes in the end your guess is as good as mine but the report does talk about how much is paid back to the exchequer.

Total dividends paid during the past ten years by ESB to the Exchequer amount to almost €1.5 billion.

So whats the problem, you have the exact situation you looked for in your last post?

ShowMeTheCash

whatstherush wrote: »

So whats the problem, you have the exact situation you looked for in your last post?

I see a distinct difference.

The majority of electricity produced in Ireland is done so by importing fuels from outside Ireland, essentially we are just buying in our energy.
And too be honest there is not really a whole lot we can do about that we are constricted by the cost of fuels at any given time.

Private owned wind farms that generate local energy is effectively paying a middle man.

Markcheese

I suppose in days gone. ( rural electrification era ) there would have been a nation wide audit or survey of wind sites , taking into consideration, wind speed / persistence, access, ease of grid connection ect.
Then land and access would be cpo'd or leased from land owners ( as pylon sites were) and turbines built ,with all benefits accruing to the state ultimately...
But these are different times...

whatstherush

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Private owned wind farms that generate local energy is effectively paying a middle man.

You just said in the original post I quoted, "I am not saying private enterprises cannot operate". If they are allowed to operate alongside the state are you now saying they can't generate a profit?

unseenfootage

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

All due respect it is easy to make such claims then add nothing. You add a link, not a passage not a section of the website but just a flat link either you are lazy and have not read the information you provide or I could also argue you have no place debating the simplest of topics.

I have said Ireland imports most of its electricity either directly or indirectly.
Ireland imports 80% of all fossil fuels, what part of this is overly complicated? And what part am I not grasping?

http://www.nowireland.ie/faqs.html#a1

Just some points from the above link

"At present, most of Ireland’s energy is derived from burning fossil fuels, either directly in the home or indirectly in power stations."

"Ireland is the fourth least energy secure country in Europe, meaning that we rely on imports for our fuel."

So as I do not know what I am talking about please educate me, how much of Irelands energy does Ireland generate itself without importing it directly or indirectly via imported fuels, and please site whatever figure you come up with.

FYI, I have a degree in energy systems engineering from NUI Galway.

You write "how much of Ireland's energy does Ireland generate itself."

Energy is a very broad term. There is energy in almost anything.You have different types of energy - chemical, mechanical, solar, electrical energy etc.
At the generation stage wind, steam and gas turbines convert one form of energy i.e. kinetic, chemical, mechanical into electricity.
Did you mean electrical energy i.e. electricity?
You have to be specific since there is energy in fossil fuels as well.

ShowMeTheCash

whatstherush wrote: »

You just said in the original post I quoted, "I am not saying private enterprises cannot operate". If they are allowed to operate alongside the state are you now saying they can't generate a profit?

What I am saying is we need to be careful in how we allow these developers to operate, I do think there should be a cap on profits if they are selling it back to the state, you do not want to be in a situation where private enterprise have the state over a barrel with regards energy prices.

Water John

Mark, there should have been designated specific areas for wind development marked out long ago. Cork was the first LA to do it but it was only a guidance doc not intrinsic to the County Dev Plan.

Cash, i agree with one thing and that is our very high dependence on imported fuel/energy is not good on many fronts.
Clear urgent Govn't policy should be to reduce this. RE's can play a big part in this. Ireland generally in most facets of life have both public and private operating side by side. I am not driven by ideology.

Developers of wind farms are not selling the output back to the state. You get the wrong end of the stick quite often, Cash.

unseenfootage

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

What I am saying is we need to be careful in how we allow these developers to operate, I do think there should be a cap on profits if they are selling it back to the state, you do not want to be in a situation where private enterprise have the state over a barrel with regards energy prices.

Electricity market in Ireland is a free market. Electricity is not sold at all to the state?

whatstherush

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

What I am saying is we need to be careful in how we allow these developers to operate, I do think there should be a cap on profits if they are selling it back to the state, you do not want to be in a situation where private enterprise have the state over a barrel with regards energy prices.

But what is so special about renewable energy, that private enterprises can hold the state over a barrel, but don't seem to be able to do with any other traditional method of energy generation.

unseenfootage

Water John wrote: »

Mark, there should have been designated specific areas for wind development marked out long ago. Cork was the first LA to do it but it was only a guidance doc not intrinsic to the County Dev Plan.

Cash, i agree with one thing and that is our very high dependence on imported fuel/energy is not good on many fronts.
Clear urgent Govn't policy should be to reduce this. RE's can play a big part in this. Ireland generally in most facets of life have both public and private operating side by side. I am not driven by ideology.

There are a few drivers that influences the governments energy policy. Some of these are:
- dependence on fossil fuels.
- energy market instability.
- global warming. (Ireland has European emissions targets that they must meet, else they will be fined.)

Renewable energy, mainly wind and solar, is a high priority area that the government is keen to develop.

Water John

Agreed Unseen, Cash might want to read the White Paper issued 6 months ago.

unseenfootage

whatstherush wrote: »

But what is so special about renewable energy, that private enterprises can hold the state over a barrel, but don't seem to be able to do with any other traditional method of energy generation.

I'm not sure if that is true. There is a lot of resistance from some quarters in government against wind energy. According to the folks at the wind energy association it is a battle for wind farms to have their planning applications approved and to get on to the national grid. The situation may be improving but its not as easy as it should be.

whatstherush

unseenfootage wrote: »

I'm not sure if that is true. There is a lot of resistance from some quarters in government against wind energy. According to the folks at the wind energy association it is a battle for wind farms to have their planning applications approved and to get on to the national grid. The situation may be improving but its not as easy as it should be.

I think your addressing a different point. Cash stated they don't wanted to see a situation where private wind developers would hold the state over a barrel WRT energy prices. My point is private enterprise already ready provides all the fossil fuels for electricity generation and runs some of the generation plants and they can't hold the state over a barrel as is, so why would renewable be different.

unseenfootage

whatstherush wrote: »

I think your addressing a different point. Cash stated they don't wanted to see a situation where private wind developers would hold the state over a barrel WRT energy prices. My point is private enterprise already ready provides all the fossil fuels for electricity generation and runs some of the generation plants and they can't hold the state over a barrel as is, so why would renewable be different.

As you already know, wind turbines harness their energy from the wind and use absolutely no fossil fuels.
In terms of wholesale prices to the grid then all transactions are done on the open market in real time. Prices fluctuate according to supply and demand and not according to what the wind farm operator says.

ESB, the semi state operator, is decarbonising its power plants and already have substantial interests in wind, both in Ireland and abroad.

Seth Brundle

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

What I am saying is we need to be careful in how we allow these developers to operate, I do think there should be a cap on profits if they are selling it back to the state, you do not want to be in a situation where private enterprise have the state over a barrel with regards energy prices.

When you say that "we need to be careful in how we allow these developers to operate", in what way? What exactly are the risks and how should we be careful?
Are you referring to profits? Environmental reasons? Labour and unions?
Do you dislike the fact that XYZ company can make money from "our" wind and you think that they should not be able to?

What would a cap on profits achieve?
Why not have a cap on any profits made by the ESB? Sure as per your earlier link, they made after tax profits of €286 million in 2015 (and €215 million in 2014). Are those profits not excessive?

You seem to have this view that the private energy suppliers are going to rip off their customers.
If a company was very efficient in terms of costs, ethical from a labour and inputs perspective and also made massive profits yet still provided electricity cheaper than ESBI, would you be OK with this?

unseenfootage

It is the fossil fuel energy suppliers that are doing the ripping off at the moments.
Prices of natural gas and oil have dropped significant in the energy market in the last two years. However, not much discounts have been passed on to end consumers at the petrol pumps or from their energy suppliers.

ShowMeTheCash

unseenfootage wrote: »

FYI, I have a degree in energy systems engineering from NUI Galway.

You write "how much of Ireland's energy does Ireland generate itself."

Energy is a very broad term. There is energy in almost anything.You have different types of energy - chemical, mechanical, solar, electrical energy etc.
At the generation stage wind, steam and gas turbines convert one form of energy i.e. kinetic, chemical, mechanical into electricity.
Did you mean electrical energy i.e. electricity?
You have to be specific since there is energy in fossil fuels as well.

Sorry only getting to these now.

So you are no pontificating about your education and asking the question what is energy?? What are you banging on about??

Have you passed your degree recently?
It's something most graduates do, start blowing about their qualifications! Experience experts in a field would normally state their current role and how it relates to a topic knowing a degree on it's own means very little! But anyways the discussion was around how Ireland satisfies the countries electrical needs where does it come from...

I see you completely avoided the question but let me simplify.
Ireland's electrical suppliers get most of the fuel from abroad, we get some directly from the UK grid that uses nuclear power and a small % of it gets generate via other sources i.e. renewable energy.

All I was stating is in one from or another we need to buy it. As already stated 70% of Ireland electrical power come from gas and we import 95% of the gas we use.

ShowMeTheCash

whatstherush wrote: »

But what is so special about renewable energy, that private enterprises can hold the state over a barrel, but don't seem to be able to do with any other traditional method of energy generation.

So oil companies don't dictate the cost of your heating bill?

We as a state buy in natural resources is at present we are just subject to what other countries and corporations want to sell these resources to us at.

But as a state if we produce a resource we should be using that to our advantage not just to benefit a small few.

To give an example there is still much discussions about the Corrib oil and gas off the cost of cork.

I posted some links at the beginning of this thread to some of the corruption around this back in the 80s.

I even posted a link to the estimate value of the oil and gas and how much of that Ireland will see.

But I will post this again

http://www.shelltosea.com/content/gas-oil-robbery

ShowMeTheCash

unseenfootage wrote: »

Electricity market in Ireland is a free market. Electricity is not sold at all to the state?

We are talking about as we move forward, technically if renewable energy is successful there could come a point when no imported fuel sources are need in Ireland.

How will that look? Will the ESB continue to operate? How much of the nations renewable energy will be state owned? How much private?
Will the ESB simply purchase it from third parties or will there be a host of companies all competing in the current market?

unseenfootage

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Sorry only getting to these now.

So you are no pontificating about your education and asking the question what is energy?? What are you banging on about??

Have you passed your degree recently?
It's something most graduates do, start blowing about their qualifications! Experience experts in a field would normally state their current role and how it relates to a topic knowing a degree on it's own means very little! But anyways the discussion was around how Ireland satisfies the countries electrical needs where does it come from...

lol....I mentioned my qualification because you said I "have no place debating the simplest of topics."

This topic is what we were taught in first and second year and are not advanced. Even a layman who bothered to research would be able to understand. The seai website is the best resource for energy information in Ireland but you just brushed it aside.

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

I see you completely avoided the question but let me simplify.
Ireland's electrical suppliers get most of the fuel from abroad, we get some directly from the UK grid that uses nuclear power and a small % of it gets generate via other sources i.e. renewable energy.

All I was stating is in one from or another we need to buy it. As already stated 70% of Ireland electrical power come from gas and we import 95% of the gas we use.

Gas is a relatively clean energy source. Coal and peat are bigger pollutants. Moneypoint, ESB owned, is a coal fired power station that generates about 900MB, about 25% of Ireland's electrical consumption. Not good. It will be decommissioned soon and replaced with a cleaner technology, possibly coal but with carbon capture storage.
Wind and solar are attractive options but are somewhat unreliable due to intermittent issues. Hopefully energy storage will be a solution.

ShowMeTheCash

Water John wrote: »

Mark, there should have been designated specific areas for wind development marked out long ago. Cork was the first LA to do it but it was only a guidance doc not intrinsic to the County Dev Plan.

Cash, i agree with one thing and that is our very high dependence on imported fuel/energy is not good on many fronts.
Clear urgent Govn't policy should be to reduce this. RE's can play a big part in this. Ireland generally in most facets of life have both public and private operating side by side. I am not driven by ideology.

Developers of wind farms are not selling the output back to the state. You get the wrong end of the stick quite often, Cash.

The energy from the turbines locally here are not even being sold back to Ireland it is being sold to the UK but that is another story.

Then we buy electricity from the UK... So it is debatable