GUI + Open Competitions

Dublin Spur

There are a select few clubs that never run any scratch cups or open competitions (e.g. Portmarnock).

I don't think it is in the spirit of GUI membership to not run a single scratch cup or open event per year.

Maybe if there were consequences for running a 'closed shop' their position might soften.

For example, what if the members of these clubs were excluded from playing in other clubs scratch cups / open competitions until their own club allowed more access?

Why should they get the best of both worlds?

Keano

Are scratch cups simply not money making exercises? Some clubs just don't need the cash

charlieIRL

I don't think Glasson GC or Mount Temple outside Athlone ever have had an open day.

Dr_Colossus

Two Dublin courses I'd like to play but never saw suitable opens for are The Island and Hermitage. I support a good number of scratch cups around but never saw one on either course.

FixdePitchmark

Yes we have had some heated discussions on this and if you put forward this idea - people think you are some sort of communist with a gold sickle tattoo on your back.

We are not asking for tee times during peak season - captain week or Irish Open build up - 3/4 opens a year , in the spirit of a union.

Guys who would go out of their way on a Tuesday from 730 am to 1030 am in between ex captain Tuesday lunch four ball - are not exactly golfers who are going to rip the place apart and take part in an uncouth pub crawl society outing.

They should be named and shamed, shamed is a harsh word. Maybe a spotlight on them - They take part in opens at your own club. Sure some of them still don't have female members - says it all.

The ones I can think of

The Island
Royal Dublin
Portmarnock

?

slave1

charlieIRL wrote: »

I don't think Glasson GC or Mount Temple outside Athlone ever have had an open day.

M Temple have had scratch cup though, certain Mr Lowry won it with (from memory) a course record 67

brick tamland

I'm pretty sure the island have the odd open. I'm sure I remember reading about one in here one time.

bustercherry

If they did have opens and it was the same price as a normal green fee, would you play? Most of the whining I hear is about getting a cheaper green fee rather than "the spirit of gui". Nobody would give a fcuk if deer park didn't run any opens, so it should be the same for these clubs if all you are wanting is a discounted green fee.

Dublin Spur

What about the idea of members of these clubs being restricted in playing in other clubs opens? This might cause a few of them to re-think their position

it seems odd to me that places like Baltray, Lahinch, Rosses Point, Ballybunion, RCD etc...run open competitions (Baltray even does an open week every July) whilst a select few never put on an open, and the key thing here is 'never'.

mike12

Opens have changed the open weeks and scratch cups used to be the way clubs gave others a chance to play their course. Now they are seen as a way to generate weekly revenue.

Think every club should have to at least hold scratch cups.
Slivenamon don't even have opens the cheek of them:)

mikepajero182

charlieIRL wrote: »

I don't think Glasson GC or Mount Temple outside Athlone ever have had an open day.

I played in an open in mount temple last tear.

alxmorgan

bustercherry wrote: »

If they did have opens and it was the same price as a normal green fee, would you play? Most of the whining I hear is about getting a cheaper green fee rather than "the spirit of gui". Nobody would give a fcuk if deer park didn't run any opens, so it should be the same for these clubs if all you are wanting is a discounted green fee.

Well to be fair opens at other clubs are normally run at prices less than the off the shelf green fee.
This does not mean comps at these courses would be cheap, just cheaper - which I think is the spirit of dealing with a union.

alxmorgan

Lahinch seems to have done away with ideas of opens or at least they did last year which I enquired.

slingerz

the old head dont host opens either

Hoof Hearted2

slingerz wrote: »

the old head dont host opens either

They are also not GUI affiliated.

blue note

I usually dismiss people whining about not getting cheap green fees in the courses they want to play, but in the case I think there is a point. If these members can avail of open competitions in other courses, I think they should have to run some sort of open competitions. They could do it once a month on a Tuesday morning or something and they could still charge high fees for it, but having a few conditions of GUI membership I think is reasonable, and running some level of open competitions could be a part of this.

slave1

Agreed, the big places are falling over in money from tourist rates but we ain't tourists so a single day out of a month would not be a stretch

bustercherry

slave1 wrote: »

Agreed, the big places are falling over in money from tourist rates but we ain't tourists so a single day out of a month would not be a stretch

You mean visitor green fee rates which is the same for everyone?

FixdePitchmark

I think it would recieve good support if a sensible motion was put forward.

slave1

bustercherry wrote: »

You mean visitor green fee rates which is the same for everyone?

Yes, but we all know it's the dollar tourists driving the rates, how would Lahinch or Ballybunion survive if zero Amercians came over? Their rates would not sustain the club because they'd have a plummet in visitors.
Lahinch are €170 mid week and €180 weekend at the minute!
BBunion are €185 mid week
Waterville €150/€170

They may be great courses but I could have 25 mid week rounds in Corballis and a couple of euros left over for a drink compared to just one round on each of those three courses!

bustercherry

slave1 wrote: »

Yes, but we all know it's the dollar tourists driving the rates, how would Lahinch or Ballybunion survive if zero Amercians came over? Their rates would not sustain the club because they'd have a plummet in visitors.
Lahinch are €170 mid week and €180 weekend at the minute!
BBunion are €185 mid week
Waterville €150/€170

They may be great courses but I could have 25 mid week rounds in Corballis and a couple of euros left over for a drink compared to just one round on each of those three courses!

That's irrelevant because the rates are based upon the market. Even though these club do have opens/scratch cups; hypothetically what percentage of the rate do you want to pay?

These threads usual underlying message are we want to play these courses on the cheap. Maybe they should be forced to have opens but you cannot force a club to discount a green fee; it's a free market.

PARlance

blue note wrote: »

I usually dismiss people whining about not getting cheap green fees in the courses they want to play, but in the case I think there is a point. If these members can avail of open competitions in other courses, I think they should have to run some sort of open competitions. They could do it once a month on a Tuesday morning or something and they could still charge high fees for it, but having a few conditions of GUI membership I think is reasonable, and running some level of open competitions could be a part of this.

Agree 100% with above. I guess it's up to the Clubs to put forward a motion to their GUI branch. Club's rallied together to go after the "bottom feeders", not much appetite to go after the big boys though. 1 a month would be enough.

bustercherry wrote: »

That's irrelevant because the rates are based upon the market. Even though these club do have opens/scratch cups; hypothetically what percentage of the rate do you want to pay?

These threads usual underlying message are we want to play these courses on the cheap. Maybe they should be forced to have opens but you cannot force a club to discount a green fee; it's a free market.

I think its fairly common that 2 markets exist in most golf destinations. The tourist one and the local one. I play Ballybunion regularly with a member and I've never paid more than €50 as his guest.
I think Scratch Cups and comps like Pat Mulclaire are priced €50-60. Hypothetically, I would say that Opens for premium courses could be set at €60 as a fair price.

I don't think it's just a case of people being cheap. We'll go on holidays and expect to pay the rack rate in the knowledge that locals will more than likely be getting a better deal. There's an unjust fairness to it all.

FixdePitchmark

Bustercherry makes a fair point - is it just chasing cheaper rates ?

To answer that genuinely - it isn't fully that for me. I guess part of it is..........

Like what is the point in me going and paying rack rate to not be even in a comp. I would and have done that and a rate is not going to stop me playing a course that I need to play.
I've played near full rate at The Island , full rate at Baltray , full rate at Royal County Down, Royal Portrush.

It genuinely is more principle.

So say you are a lad down the local pub - the "Irish" way, is you know someone who knows someone , and he signs you in - gets you in for 50 euro. A similar thing happend to me up the North before and into Portmarnock. Yes you feel great at the time - but it is bul**** too.

I think that is a bit Irish.

A person who supports this game as a fully signed up member of the GUI for years - not just me . Deserves far more recognition in any club in the country - than a fella who knows John Js brother and is great craic in the local pub but his brother in law is a member. Doesn't even matter who your man is - does he have a gui ? - "sure it will be grand, sure the yanks can't hit a ball to save their lives" - "haaa hahaa aaaaa" .

We are very quick to knock down clubs at the lower end of the market - but there seems to be hushed tones about some other practices.

Dublin Spur

Just to be clear this is not about getting cheaper green fees its about solidarity between GUI clubs and GUI members.

I think all clubs should be required to run at least 1 open event per year
What could possibly be the downside of this ?

Out of interest, a friend of mine is a member at Royal Dublin, their course was closed recently due to them hosting a major event, for that weekend their club competitions transferred to Portmarnock. It seems that they are willing to open their doors to the 'right people'.

bustercherry

PARlance wrote: »

Agree 100% with above. I guess it's up to the Clubs to put forward a motion to their GUI branch. Club's rallied together to go after the "bottom feeders", not much appetite to go after the big boys though. 1 a month would be enough.



I think its fairly common that 2 markets exist in most golf destinations. The tourist one and the local one. I play Ballybunion regularly with a member and I've never paid more than €50 as his guest.
I think Scratch Cups and comps like Pat Mulclaire are priced €50-60. Hypothetically, I would say that Opens for premium courses could be set at €60 as a fair price.

I don't think it's just a case of people being cheap. We'll go on holidays and expect to pay the rack rate in the knowledge that locals will more than likely be getting a better deal. There's an unjust fairness to it all.

Yes because that member pay's his subscription (and potentially joining fee). As part of his membership he has the privilege of bringing out guests at a discounted rate set by the club. It nonsense to think the guest rate privileged should be extended to non-member guests pay for green fees as it defeats the purpose of having the benefit for the member in the first place.

As for saying €60 is a fair price; it's an arbitrary figure pulled from nowhere (much similar to the mythical maximum 4 hours per round). If for example the rack rate is €600 per 4 ball on a premium course, you are saying that it should be mandatory they accept 60% less per line (plus the costs increase foot fall bring).

As I say people only get their knickers in a twist because they see it as a cheap way to play a course. We've been spoiled over the last few years with open's on some of the bigger courses but it hasn't always been this way; people should remember that.

Yes maybe they should be forced to have a few open competitions but no way should the GUI be enforcing the price of these. They are a sporting body their to administer the sport and not the commercial operations of clubs.

bustercherry

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Just to be clear this is not about getting cheaper green fees its about solidarity between GUI clubs and GUI members.

I think all clubs should be required to run at least 1 open event per year
What could possibly be the downside of this ?

Out of interest, a friend of mine is a member at Royal Dublin, their course was closed recently due to them hosting a major event, for that weekend their club competitions transferred to Portmarnock. It seems that they are willing to open their doors to the 'right people'.

So what? What impact has this in your life at all?

Hoof Hearted2

All the Kerry courses have a special rate for members of other Kerry clubs, the rates vary but at never more them 50% of the rack rate, e.g. Waterville is €62.50 with a Kerry card and €180 rack rate.

bustercherry

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

All the Kerry courses have a special rate for members of other Kerry clubs, the rates vary but at never more them 50% of the rack rate, e.g. Waterville is €62.50 with a Kerry card and €180 rack rate.

Yep it should be up to the clubs to make reciprocal agreements with other clubs on rates and not the GUI enforcing it though opens.

Hoof Hearted2

bustercherry wrote: »

Yep it should be up to the clubs to make reciprocal agreements with other clubs on rates and not the GUI enforcing it though opens.

Yes it should be up to the clubs, but it also probably should be a requirement of GUI affiliation, the GUI also shouldn't and doesn't get involved in such matters, they (the GUI), believe or not are actually just an amalgamation of all the clubs in Ireland and take direction from the clubs via the ADMs, it's just some clubs have more influence than others;) or make more noise then others.

mike12

In Scotland they have a tourist rate and a local rate.
I'm sure the European had a rate for GUI card holders as well.
I suppose it is a bit hard to take when u see someone from the island winning the scratch cup at your club but u never get that opportunity.

Jawgap

brick tamland wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the island have the odd open. I'm sure I remember reading about one in here one time.

The Island don't have many but they do have them - the fees are still pretty meaty.

there's one coming up on the 30th May - €50 per player.

mike12

Jawgap wrote: »

The Island don't have many but they do have them - the fees are still pretty meaty.

there's one coming up on the 30th May - €50 per player.

That's the charity day I played in a couple of years ago.
I would have less of a problem paying a % of the green fee rather than the full green fee or close to it that a lot of clubs charge.

Dublin Spur

mike12 wrote: »

I suppose it is a bit hard to take when u see someone from the island winning the scratch cup at your club but u never get that opportunity.

well said, that's the key point in all of this

some balance needs to be brought into play

as it stands its an unfair system

doublecross

I don't think it's possible or fair to dictate what a club charge for their green fees, but I think it should be mandatory that they have a number of open comps a year. Only fair if members of these clubs are allowed play in other clubs open comps (which is usually a discount rate).
Now if these clubs were not GUI affiliated (like Old Head) then I think they could do what they wanted.

bustercherry

Dublin Spur wrote: »

well said, that's the key point in all of this

some balance needs to be brought into play

as it stands its an unfair system

Unfair for who though? Unfair for the club hosting or the club members?

The way I see it members (and get preferential treatment in some cases) are not excluded from entering their home club's opens (and at normal competition rates) but benefit in some way from the external revenue generated e.g. lower subscriptions etc....

People forget their club is not forced to hold opens and I would assume the vast majority use it to increase revenue. So calling unfair that another club to reciprocate (with financial loses) for something their own club has voluntarily done and members indirectly benefit from is nonsense.

By the way I would be for club being required to hold a number of open comps a year but dead against enforcing/fixing rates. I'd like it if the clubs in question didn't charge full whack but ultimately if you won't pay the rate to play then that's your decision on how you apportion value.

Dublin Spur

bustercherry wrote: »

I would be for club being required to hold a number of open comps a year but dead against enforcing/fixing rates. I'd like it if the clubs in question didn't charge full whack

I agree with you 100% (for GUI clubs) - Non-GUI courses can do what they like.

On the subject of pricing, I think clubs should follow guidelines and 'do the right thing'.

We all know that the competition fee for a Scratch Cup (for example) is a lower % of the normal green fee. I don't know of any Scratch Cups where the full green fee is charged and I do play in quite a lot of them.

For example 36 hole SCC at Headfort is €40 including lunch, this type of thing is is quite common.

I think we are all in agreement that its unfair for members of clubs that don't permit open competitions to compete in other clubs open competitions.

Dublin Spur

bustercherry wrote: »

People forget their club is not forced to hold opens and I would assume the vast majority use it to increase revenue.

Some need the revenue more than others but regardless of their motives for doing it, it is the right thing to do in terms of being a GUI club.

One open event a year should be a minimum

I can't see any possible downside to this, can you ?

Dr_Colossus

In my home club we the members are charged a more expensive competition entry fee if it's an open competition rather than a club comp. For example our usual member competitions are €6 but for open competition we the members are charged €8 despite there being the same number of prizes of similar value on offer. Non member rates for the same competition are €20 or €15 if signed in my a member so visitors rates are very competitive versus what the members themselves have to pay.
Could never understand the logic of it and always begrudged having to pay an extra €2 to play a competition that was classified as "open" so now I just use it as an incentive to play an open competition elsewhere.

PARlance

bustercherry wrote: »

Yes because that member pay's his subscription (and potentially joining fee). As part of his membership he has the privilege of bringing out guests at a discounted rate set by the club. It nonsense to think the guest rate privileged should be extended to non-member guests pay for green fees as it defeats the purpose of having the benefit for the member in the first place.

As for saying €60 is a fair price; it's an arbitrary figure pulled from nowhere (much similar to the mythical maximum 4 hours per round). If for example the rack rate is €600 per 4 ball on a premium course, you are saying that it should be mandatory they accept 60% less per line (plus the costs increase foot fall bring).

As I say people only get their knickers in a twist because they see it as a cheap way to play a course. We've been spoiled over the last few years with open's on some of the bigger courses but it hasn't always been this way; people should remember that.

Yes maybe they should be forced to have a few open competitions but no way should the GUI be enforcing the price of these. They are a sporting body their to administer the sport and not the commercial operations of clubs.

You asked for a hypothetical suggestion for fees for an open and that what was given. I mentioned the guest rate as a logic for coming to this, the guest rate of €35-45 should indeed be lower than the open rate so I went for €60... and that seems in line with scratch cups and Am-Ams.

I didn't say anything was mandatory, I answered your question and I can't see anyone getting their knickers in a twist bar yourself.

I think the majority are in agreement that GUI clubs who dont operate open up just a few times aren't really operating within the spirit of a union. Of course the price would be up to the individual club. Hypothetically, I would hope that it was fair and reasonable, everyone will have there on opinions on what constitutes that.

lettuce97

Rather than a % discount, would people be happy if the clubs in question ran opens and gave the same amount of a discount as neighbouring clubs? So club 1's rack rate is €30, opens cost €15. Club 2's rack rate is €200, opens cost €185.

Dublin Spur

lettuce97 wrote: »

Rather than a % discount, would people be happy if the clubs in question ran opens and gave the same amount of a discount as neighbouring clubs? So club 1's rack rate is €30, opens cost €15. Club 2's rack rate is €200, opens cost €185.

Should this not be a 50% reduction (€100) ?