How to approach a time trial?

The tax man

lennymc wrote: »

There are a couple of 100 mile ones up norf. Ill do one if you do.

I'll bring my audax bike.:)

Taxuser1

on the subject of aerodynamics, is there any benefit in using a TT lid for a 7 - 10 minute hill climb ? (hill climb S2 Dun na nGhall)

In addition, would seated power be more efficient over that 7-10 minutes where possible than climbing in and out of the saddle. I'm tending to think that maintaining cadence in the saddle where remotely possible on gradients less than 10% and using a lid is probably more beneficial than powering some bigger gear out of saddle.

the climb is question starts gradually but ends with double digit gradients for final 400 metres - some of the club lads have ridden it and done well on it but then they're mountain goats!

harringtonp

Question on TTing a cadence which I thought I'd pop in here. My cadence is low and I tend to ride TT's around 80RPM or sometimes a little lower.

I've looked at the cadence of others in TTs (via strava) and it tends to be a lot higher. Mid 90s is normal and you often see over 100 average.

Last night did a 20km TT and deliberately kept the average power a little lower than normal and focused on a higher cadence averaging 94RPM. Noticed that average heart rate was quite high for the power output.

Just wondering does anybody else out there tend to ride them at a lower cadence and find it works for them ? I'm talking flat TT course here BTW

fat bloke

I'm generally a spinner on the road bike - 90-100rpm naturally, but I do find it harder to maintain those cadences in the TT tuck position. Having said that my cadence still tends to be around 85-90. When I get more tired I have a tendancy to lash into bigger gears and try and churn them but invariably actually go slightly slower as a result. If I concentrate on what I'm doing, drop a few gears and spin again my power goes up, speed goes up etc etc.

I do have a shorter crank as well on the TT bike which reduces the kind of torque effect that would help churn a bigger gear.

Inquitus

The best way to enjoy a TT is to stand at a roundabout or junction and hold a flag while wearing a Hi Viz!

Beasty

Used to do them in the mid to high 80s cadence. Last couple of years I've been working on it and now will be in the high 90s/low 100s. I find its putting less strain on the muscles but more on the cardiovascular system which is easier to maintain over an extended period when you are getting no breaks.

harringtonp

Beasty wrote: »

Used to do them in the mid to high 80s cadence. Last couple of years I've been working on it and now will be in the high 90s/low 100s. I find its putting less strain on the muscles but more on the cardiovascular system which is easier to maintain over an extended period when you are getting no breaks.

I've wondered about that, any I do are in the 5-20km range (shorter ones in stage races) and I suspect you can afford to burn muscle more as it is over before too much damage is done.

I also suspect like yourself that if it is something I decide to try and train, best is to do what I did last night which is drop power and focus on pushing cadence up.

lennymc

Anyone out tomorrow at the naas one?

Borderfox

harringtonp wrote: »

Question on TTing a cadence which I thought I'd pop in here. My cadence is low and I tend to ride TT's around 80RPM or sometimes a little lower.

I've looked at the cadence of others in TTs (via strava) and it tends to be a lot higher. Mid 90s is normal and you often see over 100 average.

Last night did a 20km TT and deliberately kept the average power a little lower than normal and focused on a higher cadence averaging 94RPM. Noticed that average heart rate was quite high for the power output.

Just wondering does anybody else out there tend to ride them at a lower cadence and find it works for them ? I'm talking flat TT course here BTW

Back in my 20's my strategy for a to was hard out into a headwind at a high enough cadence approx 90-95 and on the tailwind return get into the big gears and the cadence would drop to around 60-70 so as beasty was saying I would be using both systems (cardiovascular and muscular) on a road bike,steel LeMond with tri bars, skin suit, bell carbon tt helmet and standard 28 spoke wheels. My best for a 40km was just over 56 minutes on the Navan Road out and back.

nilhg

lennymc wrote: »

Anyone out tomorrow at the naas one?

I'm going to give it a go, someone has to prop up the bottom of the results table

EAD

nilhg wrote: »

I'm going to give it a go, someone has to prop up the bottom of the results table

I'll be right behind you nilhg (in a time sense rather than I'm-about-to-catch-you sense). As a well known starter of TTs has been heard to say, 'If there's no last, there's no race.'

harringtonp

Borderfox wrote: »

Back in my 20's my strategy for a to was hard out into a headwind at a high enough cadence approx 90-95 and on the tailwind return get into the big gears and the cadence would drop to around 60-70 so as beasty was saying I would be using both systems (cardiovascular and muscular) on a road bike,steel LeMond with tri bars, skin suit, bell carbon tt helmet and standard 28 spoke wheels. My best for a 40km was just over 56 minutes on the Navan Road out and back.

Thanks for that, interesting tactic and makes some sense as I find cadence naturally dropping off as the trial progresses.

Plan on giving the Munster's in Patrickswell a go tomorrow. Expect to finish near bottom of my category (usually place about 70%-80% down field in stage races) but it is supposedly a fast course (have never done it) and it is all about setting personal goals for me. Hardest thing is trying to psyche beforehand, if you're not really up for it they're difficult things to do.

harringtonp

Actually was told by the organizer of the Munster TT champs tomorrow that only skinsuits in club colors are allowed.

Somebody else was saying that neutral colors are allowed.

It comes down to the commissaires, can anybody confirm the policy on this ?

endacl

wuzziwig wrote: »

is there a method to doing well at time trials?

Head down. Arse up. Peddle like billyo.

lennymc

harringtonp wrote: »

Actually was told by the organizer of the Munster TT champs tomorrow that only skinsuits in club colors are allowed.

Somebody else was saying that neutral colors are allowed.

It comes down to the commissaires, can anybody confirm the policy on this ?

I was under the impression that for a tt the skins it didn't have to be in club colours, but I could be wrong. It should be in the technical regs on the ci website.

Borderfox

lennymc wrote: »

I was under the impression that for a tt the skins it didn't have to be in club colours, but I could be wrong. It should be in the technical regs on the ci website.

Smaller tt's you might get away with it but at the nationals it was club colours only

lennymc

Riders belonging to a Cycling Ireland affiliated club must when competing in an open race, authorised by
Cycling Ireland and organised under Cycling Ireland rules, wear the registered clothing of their affiliated
club. In races where a one piece suit is normally worn and a club one piece suit is not available then the
rider, with the commissaires agreement, may wear a plain one piece suit.

Article 2 paragraph 3 from 2016 tech regs. Guess it is up to the comm. Maybe try asking him nicely.

Beasty

lennymc wrote: »

Riders belonging to a Cycling Ireland affiliated club must when competing in an open race, authorised by
Cycling Ireland and organised under Cycling Ireland rules, wear the registered clothing of their affiliated
club. In races where a one piece suit is normally worn and a club one piece suit is not available then the
rider, with the commissaires agreement, may wear a plain one piece suit.

Article 2 paragraph 3 from 2016 tech regs. Guess it is up to the comm. Maybe try asking him nicely.

Join us Lenny - then you can squeeze into mine......


:pac:

lennymc

I have me own skinsuit beasty. Just about squeeze into it!

Lusk_Doyle

lennymc wrote: »

Riders belonging to a Cycling Ireland affiliated club must when competing in an open race, authorised by
Cycling Ireland and organised under Cycling Ireland rules, wear the registered clothing of their affiliated
club. In races where a one piece suit is normally worn and a club one piece suit is not available then the
rider, with the commissaires agreement, may wear a plain one piece suit.

Article 2 paragraph 3 from 2016 tech regs. Guess it is up to the comm. Maybe try asking him nicely.

When I did the nationals a few years ago there was at least one rider in a plain skinsuit. He does work for CI though!

harringtonp

lennymc wrote: »

Riders belonging to a Cycling Ireland affiliated club must when competing in an open race, authorised by
Cycling Ireland and organised under Cycling Ireland rules, wear the registered clothing of their affiliated
club. In races where a one piece suit is normally worn and a club one piece suit is not available then the
rider, with the commissaires agreement, may wear a plain one piece suit.

Article 2 paragraph 3 from 2016 tech regs. Guess it is up to the comm. Maybe try asking him nicely.

Glad you found that. Wasn't going to do the Munster Champs today but this post changed my mind and there was no problem with the commissaires and suit, it was a plain black one.

And it my first TT ever where I averaged over 40. Delighted with that, never have to do another one again

lennymc

Nice one!

yop

Interesting thread lads. Started doing TT's this year. Mainly 16kms, couple of 8's and one 40km.
From next Tuesday we will be doing 40's and one every 2nd week for the next 6 weeks.
I'm no stick @92kg but I seem to be able to push out good power.
The 40's worry me as I am afraid I will blow up, so trying to find a balance of not going to hard, but going hard enough, if that makes sense. My 20 minute avg watts is 327, so I'm going to peg it for around 315 and see what that does.
The wind could be a pig though, it will more than likely be on the 20km return, how u lads manage that, go out really hard and then aim to be consistent into the wind is it?
What do ye think about discs? I've 50mm wheels on, I've the skinsuit and teardrop helmet (40 euro deal!).

I'm "messing" with cadence to see what suits on the 16kms. I started off with a 24.05 and 4 races in, on the exact same course, I am down to a 22.52. So I am happy with that, but want more Just trying to figure out how is the problem!

JK.BMC

yop wrote: »

Interesting thread lads. Started doing TT's this year. Mainly 16kms, couple of 8's and one 40km.
From next Tuesday we will be doing 40's and one every 2nd week for the next 6 weeks.
I'm no stick @92kg but I seem to be able to push out good power.
The 40's worry me as I am afraid I will blow up, so trying to find a balance of not going to hard, but going hard enough, if that makes sense. My 20 minute avg watts is 327, so I'm going to peg it for around 315 and see what that does.
The wind could be a pig though, it will more than likely be on the 20km return, how u lads manage that, go out really hard and then aim to be consistent into the wind is it?
What do ye think about discs? I've 50mm wheels on, I've the skinsuit and teardrop helmet (40 euro deal!).

I'm "messing" with cadence to see what suits on the 16kms. I started off with a 24.05 and 4 races in, on the exact same course, I am down to a 22.52. So I am happy with that, but want more Just trying to figure out how is the problem!

Well done so far- TTS are very much a discipline of their own and any personal improvement is to be welcomed.
There is endless advice on pacing/wattage etc but for me the 40km is as much a test of your mental fortitude and 'calculation' as a test of fitness. And the best judge of that is yourself. I spent two whole years trying to do a sub-hour 40km, most of it on a road bike and following heart-rate and perceived exertion. I eventually got a bog standard TT rig and aero wheels and managed to knock nearly 5 mins off my PB and got the job done. And most of this was actually down to practice and bloody mindedness in the absence of a power meter.
I'm down to do a 40km TT this week 'Merckx Style' Quite possibly the hardest hour or so of the summer!

yop

JK.BMC wrote: »

Well done so far- TTS are very much a discipline of their own and any personal improvement is to be welcomed.
There is endless advice on pacing/wattage etc but for me the 40km is as much a test of your mental fortitude and 'calculation' as a test of fitness. And the best judge of that is yourself. I spent two whole years trying to do a sub-hour 40km, most of it on a road bike and following heart-rate and perceived exertion. I eventually got a bog standard TT rig and aero wheels and managed to knock nearly 5 mins off my PB and got the job done. And most of this was actually down to practice and bloody mindedness in the absence of a power meter.
I'm down to do a 40km TT this week 'Merckx Style' Quite possibly the hardest hour or so of the summer!

Thanks for all the detail.
Trying to get the TT practise in while I'm road racing is beginning to be a struggle. Also on the club spin I can't take the TT bike and I dont want to miss out on the 3 or 4 hours either on that spin with the club.
So its a balancing act

This is my one and only 40km TT so far, (https://www.strava.com/activities/581461207 ) Tuesday will be on a different course but I have every intention of getting to 1hr 1 minute with a slight hope of getting down to the 60 minute mark.

JK.BMC

yop wrote: »

Thanks for all the detail.
Trying to get the TT practise in while I'm road racing is beginning to be a struggle. Also on the club spin I can't take the TT bike and I dont want to miss out on the 3 or 4 hours either on that spin with the club.
So its a balancing act

This is my one and only 40km TT so far, (https://www.strava.com/activities/581461207 ) Tuesday will be on a different course but I have every intention of getting to 1hr 1 minute with a slight hope of getting down to the 60 minute mark.

That looks like a savage hard 40km route- if my memory of Ras Mayo is anything to go by.
I would think that with your wattage and race experience, on a flatter route, 58 mins is within your compass once you make a good calculation

yop

JK.BMC wrote: »

That looks like a savage hard 40km route- if my memory of Ras Mayo is anything to go by.
I would think that with your wattage and race experience, on a flatter route, 58 mins is within your compass once you make a good calculation

thats the route, its a hard slog.

Okay so I'm now aiming for 58

Small steps, 1.01 tomorrow night, then 1hr in 2 weeks time and sub one hour 4 weeks from now!

harringtonp

JK.BMC wrote: »

That looks like a savage hard 40km route- if my memory of Ras Mayo is anything to go by.
I would think that with your wattage and race experience, on a flatter route, 58 mins is within your compass once you make a good calculation

I remember that from Ras Mhaigh Eo too. Savage for a TT, with that speed you'd get sub hour now on a fast course.

On Saturday I had the Garmin set up to show average/lap power/speed/cadence and current hr and time. For the first time just focused on watching speed (ignored power and heart rate) and it worked well. You can get away with that on a flat course on a calm day.

harringtonp

yop wrote: »

What do ye think about discs? I've 50mm wheels on, I've the skinsuit and teardrop helmet (40 euro deal!).

All the bits add up and together make a massive difference. Consider myself a cheap skate part time time trialer

Sold the TT bike a couple of years ago along with a nice set of wheels for 1700 as I wasn't using it enough (gave up triathlons) and reckoned that of all the enhancements it was by far the worst bang for your buck (that is when upgrading from aerobars on an aero frame).

With some of the spare cash invested over time in a cheapo pointy helmet (lazer bullet), cheapo tight overshoes (Galibier), cheapo skinsuit (again Galibier), razor blades (massive bang for buck here guys), and cheapo (compared to disc wheels) rear disc cover.

For larger yaw angles (i.e. good stiff crosswinds), covers are as good as any of the massively expensive options out there, well that is if you believe this blurb:

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/aerodisc-data.html

Cannot say what gives what advantages from experience but all together the gain is huge.

From what I can see biggest advantage of owning a TT bike if you are doing lots of trials is not having to change wheels, saddle position, add/remove bars, take of cages etc.

And on cages I've seen guys with bottles on their bikes in short stage race TT's and wonder what on earth... Can't saying boo to them though as they have all the cool gear and are far faster than me.

Oh yeah and keep your hair short too, no point having the best of gear and bob marley dreads flowing out under your helmet.

yop

harringtonp wrote: »

All the bits add up and together make a massive difference. Consider myself a cheap skate part time time trialer

Sold the TT bike a couple of years ago along with a nice set of wheels for 1700 as I wasn't using it enough (gave up triathlons) and reckoned that of all the enhancements it was by far the worst bang for your buck (that is when upgrading from aerobars on an aero frame).

With some of the spare cash invested over time in a cheapo pointy helmet (lazer bullet), cheapo tight overshoes (Galibier), cheapo skinsuit (again Galibier), razor blades (massive bang for buck here guys), and cheapo (compared to disc wheels) rear disc cover.

For larger yaw angles (i.e. good stiff crosswinds), covers are as good as any of the massively expensive options out there, well that is if you believe this blurb:

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/aerodisc-data.html

Cannot say what gives what advantages from experience but all together the gain is huge.

From what I can see biggest advantage of owning a TT bike if you are doing lots of trials is not having to change wheels, saddle position, add/remove bars, take of cages etc.

And on cages I've seen guys with bottles on their bikes in short stage race TT's and wonder what on earth... Can't saying boo to them though as they have all the cool gear and are far faster than me.

Oh yeah and keep your hair short too, no point having the best of gear and bob marley dreads flowing out under your helmet.

I'm laughin to myself and I would deem myself a tight arse purchaser. So I am going to "reward" myself with a disc cover when I get sub 22.30 on the 16km AND sub 1 hour on the 40km (okay, maybe 58 minutes lol)

I have been told by many that the bottle on the bike is better as it gives you more aero as oppossed to the cage on its own. So mine is always on, even though I dont have anything in it.
http://www.jimmymcelroy.com/laught2016/h732086e0#h732086e0


Ya, need shave the legs, too much hair (they are causing big draft here! (http://www.jimmymcelroy.com/img/s9/v87/p1968625162-6.jpg))


I have the skin suit, problem is there is much too much skin in that suit lol

Them shoes, not what I have on there so?