E3 2016 - June 12th to 14th

Penn

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Where your argument falls flat is here.



And what is the Scorpio..... its a new member of the Xbox family AKA - Next gen by your own words.

I was making a joke with that comment, not an argument.

Either way, I stand by my assertion that since Phil Spencer purposefully didn't call it next-gen when specifically asked, and considering it won't have exclusive games or features outside better graphics (and games released will still be playable on launch XB1s), it's not next-gen.

I also find it bizarre that your arguing that this is a next-gen console while also arguing that MS are going away with generations for their consoles. That's a self-defeating argument. How can it be next-gen if there is no next-gen?

Kirby

Penn wrote: »

I was making a joke with that comment, not an argument.

Either way, I stand by my assertion that since Phil Spencer purposefully didn't call it next-gen when specifically asked, and considering it won't have exclusive games or features outside better graphics (and games released will still be playable on launch XB1s), it's not next-gen.

I also find it bizarre that your arguing that this is a next-gen console while also arguing that MS are going away with generations for their consoles. That's a self-defeating argument. How can it be next-gen if there is no next-gen?

He did that so people would buy the now pointless Xbox slim version. If you proclaim loudly to the world "This is our new next gen console!" then your old stuff stops selling. It's PR speak.

If you come out with a console that is 4 times more powerful than the previous one......how can it not be "next-gen"? He's just trying to be clever.

Digital Solitude

Kirby wrote: »

He did that so people would buy the now pointless Xbox slim version. If you proclaim loudly to the world "This is our new next gen console!" then your old stuff stops selling. It's PR speak.

If you come out with a console that is 4 times more powerful than the previous one......how can it not be "next-gen"? He's just trying to be clever.

Because it's still playing games along with the 8th generation of consoles. It's not a successor to the Xbox One, it's an alternative. I don't know how accurate the PC GPU argument actually is but it's like if Nvidia announced the 1050 ( a weak card for budgets) and the 1080Ti (a powerhouse of a card) at the same time, sure the 1080Ti is much more powerful but it's still the same generation, they're not competing hardware, they hit different markets, same as Scorpio and XB1

Penn

Kirby wrote: »

He did that so people would buy the now pointless Xbox slim version. If you proclaim loudly to the world "This is our new next gen console!" then your old stuff stops selling. It's PR speak.

If you come out with a console that is 4 times more powerful than the previous one......how can it not be "next-gen"? He's just trying to be clever.

But then there was no reason to announce it at all. They didn't have anything to show for it. Plus again, if the same XB1 games will run on 2.5 year old launch Xbox Ones which he repeatedly said, then the upgrade is nothing more than graphics only. And if that's supposed to be their next-gen console, it sounds awful.

Seriously, I'm really struggling to understand what the issue is with calling the Scorpio what it is. If it can hit 4k @ 60fps, that's f*cking amazing and I can't wait to see what that looks and plays like. But it's an Xbox One with better graphics. That's it. Still an Xbox One. Plays Xbox One games at better resolutions and frame rates.

FAILSAFE 00

Penn wrote: »

I was making a joke with that comment, not an argument.

Either way, I stand by my assertion that since Phil Spencer purposefully didn't call it next-gen when specifically asked, and considering it won't have exclusive games or features outside better graphics (and games released will still be playable on launch XB1s), it's not next-gen.

I also find it bizarre that your arguing that this is a next-gen console while also arguing that MS are going away with generations for their consoles. That's a self-defeating argument. How can it be next-gen if there is no next-gen?

Microsoft are not arguing that its not next gen. In the questions and answers with Phil Spencer that you posted Phil answered a question about if the Scorpio was a next gen console.

Phil Spencer wrote:

...That's why we say beyond generations. The idea, is this part of the previous generation or the next generation gets a little blurry.

He is using PR speak to keep the Xbox One and Xbox One S selling. That is the new Microsoft strategy. Of course its a next gen console.

Simply mentioning that Xbox Scorpio games need to run on Xbox One is not an argument for saying that it is not next gen. Take any PC game at 4k you can get it to run on Xbox One easily be reducing the resolution to 900p and giving it a few tweaks which will not hinder the gameplay experience.

Grayditch

This is the messiest thing ever. Pc, PS4 and 3Ds it is for me, so.

johnny_ultimate

The developers of Hawken have actually just spoken about how complex the console porting process can be: http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/06/15/porting-a-pc-game-to-console-is-not-always-as-easy-as-it-sounds

It is far, far from a case of just down rendering to 900p/1080p and hit the release button. Some games simply cannot be ported, due to the complexity of the controls, UI or other features.

It's not much of a stretch to suggest consoles are holding PC games back, either - and I say that as somebody who believes a healthy console scene is really important. If a game has to work on base PS4 or Xbox One - and it has to, because that's where the big money and biggest audience is - there's little doubt its computing and graphical potential will be neutered. The PC version (or upgraded console versions) may get bells and whistles, but if they're beholden to the core tech then that'll have consequences for areas beyond visuals. Shadow of Mordor last gen is a perfect example of a game that had to be heavily compromised to fit onto a previous gen to the point of, well, pointlessness. But that was an afterthought port, not designed for the baseline tech in the first place.

Penn

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Microsoft are not arguing that its not next gen. In the questions and answers with Phil Spencer that you posted Phil answered a question about if the Scorpio was a next gen console.



He is using PR speak to keep the Xbox One and Xbox One S selling. That is the new Microsoft strategy. Of course its a next gen console.

Simply mentioning that Xbox Scorpio games need to run on Xbox One is not an argument for saying that it is not next gen. Take any PC game at 4k you can get it to run on Xbox One easily be reducing the resolution to 900p and giving it a few tweaks which will not hinder the gameplay experience.

Okay, just answer me this, and after that, I'm simply not going to discuss it any more:

- Can you play an Xbox One game on your 360 with the same disk? (eg. not a game like Fifa or Destiny released on both versions, but the same XB1 disk)

That's what the difference is between a console generation. Where the game is that much more advanced that the previous console isn't powerful enough to run it.

FAILSAFE 00

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The developers of Hawken have actually just spoken about how complex the console porting process can be: http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/06/15/porting-a-pc-game-to-console-is-not-always-as-easy-as-it-sounds

It is far, far from a case of just down rendering to 900p/1080p and hit the release button. Some games simply cannot be ported, due to the complexity of the controls, UI or other features.

It's not much of a stretch to suggest consoles are holding PC games back, either - and I say that as somebody who believes a healthy console scene is really important. If a game has to work on base PS4 or Xbox One - and it has to, because that's where the big money and biggest audience is - there's little doubt its computing and graphical potential will be neutered. The PC version (or upgraded console versions) may get bells and whistles, but if they're beholden to the core tech then that'll have consequences for areas beyond visuals. Shadow of Mordor last gen is a perfect example of a game that had to be heavily compromised to fit onto a previous gen to the point of, well, pointlessness. But that was an afterthought port, not designed for the baseline tech in the first place.

Watch Dogs was another one. The PC title was clearly gimped to make sure it looked closer to the PS4 version.

Then some nice PC folk found the settings inside the game code that activated way better visuals that had been turned off on the PC version.

Venom

Grayditch wrote: »

This is the messiest thing ever. Pc, PS4 and 3Ds it is for me, so.

Yeah PS4 is the only console I'd consider at this point in time as its has far more interesting exclusives and all the Xbox ones are now coming to PC. Best of both worlds

FAILSAFE 00

Penn wrote: »

Okay, just answer me this, and after that, I'm simply not going to discuss it any more:

- Can you play an Xbox One game on your 360 with the same disk? (eg. not a game like Fifa or Destiny released on both versions, but the same XB1 disk)

That's what the difference is between a console generation. Where the game is that much more advanced that the previous console isn't powerful enough to run it.

You are talking about next gen games, not next gen consoles.

Both Sony and Microsoft's future consoles will all support games from PS4 and Xbox One upwards. Your argument about the 360 and Xbox One isn't valid because all future gens will let you play games back as far as XB1 & PS4.

CiDeRmAn

There are no Scorpio games, just Xbox One games that will look better on it.
To be satisfied with that is to suggest that the PS4 would have been satisfactory if all it hosted were remasters of PS3 games.

ERG89

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Watch Dogs was another one. The PC title was clearly gimped to make sure it looked closer to the PS4 version.

Then some nice PC folk found the settings inside the game code that activated way better visuals that had been turned off on the PC version.

But the game was bad for other reasons no?
Funny how so many threads go this direction

CastorTroy

Haven't read all the comments, but I'd say there's a chance they may have the Scorpio/Neo version of the games as a patch to download, instead of including on the disk. Not the whole game, but just like a HD texture pack. Would also mean the devs have more time to tweak things to get it looking better on Scorpio/Neo

CiDeRmAn

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Its a 4K gaming console thats made with game devs in mind.

It's a console that will play 4K enabled ports from the Xbox One

The damage as you put it has been long repaired. Just look at last November to December on Xbox One. Packed full of great exclusives and over on PS4 no AAA titles came until March 2016 with Sony not even showing up at Gamescom.

Console sales say no, that the damage to the Xbox brand is right there, as an also ran to the PS4's ongoing success.
And the consoles sales outside the US are worse again.
Only in the US is the console doing well, and even then only as well as it's main rival.
In Japan the Xbox One might as well not exist, and in Europe and other regions it lags way behind.

Like Nintendo, these numbers would be meaningless if it had exclusives people wanted to play, but I am unable to pick a single must have title out of the range MS have lined up that I must own.
I'll get Forza Horizon 3, maybe Gears of War at some point, but little else, and, as I've said, this is reflected in the small nature of my XB1 collection, despite my 360, PS3 and now PS4 titles being numerous.

Venom

Kirby wrote: »

He did that so people would buy the now pointless Xbox slim version. If you proclaim loudly to the world "This is our new next gen console!" then your old stuff stops selling. It's PR speak.

If you come out with a console that is 4 times more powerful than the previous one......how can it not be "next-gen"? He's just trying to be clever.

But most console players don't give a monkeys about the hardware and its only the quality of the games that makes them next gen. Scorpio may well be 4 times more powerful but if that power can never be used except to bump up resolutions under certain circumstances it can't be considered a next gen device.

If you go from playing Minesweeper on a 5 year old netbook to playing it on a top of the line GTX 1080 SLI moster PC, is Minesweeper now a next gen game?

johnny_ultimate

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Watch Dogs was another one. The PC title was clearly gimped to make sure it looked closer to the PS4 version.

Then some nice PC folk found the settings inside the game code that activated way better visuals that had been turned off on the PC version.

It's about more than visuals though, although I'd suggest that the more powerful tech available the more visuals can feed into the design. If a game relies on robust facial animation or lighting system, for example, they might not be directly translatable to previous gen tech. Nobody doubts the same basic game can exist on better tech, just prettier. The game doesn't fundamentally change however.

I bring up Shadow of Mordor as an example not because they were technically awful visually speaking (they were), but because the PS3 and 360 versions had to simplify the core game mechanics - the Nemesis system in particular. That to me highlights the stark potential difference between 'this gen' and 'next gen' or 'last gen' - the gameplay itself relying on the advances. And that's where the new premium consoles will lack if they transpire to be nothing more than glorified upscalers.

FAILSAFE 00

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

There are no Scorpio games, just Xbox One games that will look better on it.

Yes, and the games will look incredible in glorious native 4k. Sounds great to me.

You don't see PC games that are ONLY for 4k. They work on a wide variety of PCs from entry level to enthusiast.

What they are saying is that all the Scorpio games will run on the Xbox One also. Much the same as a PC games developer making a game that can be played from 4K all the way down to 720p without changing the gameplay experience.

They will simply optimise games to run on the Xbox One.

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

To be satisfied with that is to suggest that the PS4 would have been satisfactory if all it hosted were remasters of PS3 games.

Your example is ridiculous though. How do PC games do it then.

FAILSAFE 00

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

It's a console that will play 4K enabled ports from the Xbox One

Nope. They mentioned native 4K gaming so they'll start high and work their way down.

It's going to be a massive jump for console gamers and I am looking forward to see what Sony put forward to compete. Right now its looking like Sony will be left in the light weight division but that might only be for a while. We will see next year.

lawlolawl

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Only in the US is the console doing well, and even then only as well as it's main rival.

If by doing well you mean: "Getting outsold at a 2:1 ratio at numerous points over the last 2 years." They are still getting utterly shellacked in their most successful territory.

The One gets outsold by both the original PSP and the 360 most weeks in Japan. It is being outsold in EU nations by ratios from 4:1 up to 12:1.

It has been a sales catastrophe for MS and their answer is more console SKUs, porting everything to PC and sequels to franchises that people have completely gone cold on over the past few years.

K.O.Kiki

To reiterate: Xbox Scorpio is around the same power as AMD R9 390x, which means native 4k30 is barely achievable.

Penn

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

You are talking about next gen games, not next gen consoles.

Both Sony and Microsoft's future consoles will all support games from PS4 and Xbox One upwards. Your argument about the 360 and Xbox One isn't valid because all future gens will let you play games back as far as XB1 & PS4.

But that's the crux of the issue, because if while Scorpio will let you play games from the XB1 launch forward (and probably 360 games too), games will get to a point where they cannot run on a launch XB1. As Phil Spencer said, there will be no Scorpio-exclusive games. That means either games will have to be restricted to what the launch XB1s can handle, or Phil Spencer is lying when he said:

"When you're buying a console game from us, you know that console game will run on your original Xbox. No-one gets left behind. We said that on stage. Your Xbox One S and Scorpio. That's an important design point for us. They're all part of the same family. And we want to make sure just like when you're buying your music today, you don't worry about upgrading to a new phone that somehow won't play your old songs or your new songs. We think about your Xbox One collection of games that will move with you between those different consoles.

In fact, somebody today will have an Xbox One, and when Scorpio comes out they will buy Scorpio and they will put Xbox One in a different room, and we're obviously going to make sure that as they move between rooms that they've got access to the same games.

The Scorpio games are obviously designed to take advantage of six teraflops and 4K. Your Xbox One, you were playing those today. You know what those look like and feel like. But there won't be Scorpio exclusive console games. Absolutely not."

Now, you and others may be happy to dismiss that as "PR Speak". I'd call it lying. Unnecessary lying too because if the reason he's saying that is to not deter people from buying the One S, they didn't have to say anything about the Scorpio at all. They didn't have a console to show, or games to show. Nothing. They could have left it at the One S and left the Scorpio until next year.

So either the Scorpio is just an XB1 with better graphic capabilities (which is fine, nobody is complaining about that), or Phil Spencer flat out lied and is willfully deceiving fans.

jcd5971

FAILSAFE 00 wrote:

It's going to be a massive jump for console gamers and I am looking forward to see what Sony put forward to compete. Right now its looking like Sony will be left in the light weight division but that might only be for a while. We will see next year.

They don't appear to be overly worried, I'd just hope they don't announce a spec jump now as well to match Scorpio because that would be lies too.

FAILSAFE 00 wrote:

Nope. They mentioned native 4K gaming so they'll start high and work their way down.

I'm going to keep saying this is bull ****, right up until I see it live with my own 2 eyes, it makes no sense there is no way this thing could be done for.cheaper than 700 800 euro at best, and then it's even with a gaming Pc when the newest card comes out you just slot it in. How would that work on Scorpio/neo whatever.

Also Microsoft have done this before anyone rember the kinect launch announcement? Big promises never delivered

This should be seen for what it is a 4k upscaler.

FAILSAFE 00

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

To reiterate: Xbox Scorpio is around the same power as AMD R9 390x, which means native 4k30 is barely achievable.

Actually its based on new tech from AMD that won't release until next year.

They won't release a 4k native gaming system for anything less than 30 fps. Thats a given.

FAILSAFE 00

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Much the same as a PC games developer making a game that can be played from 4K all the way down to 720p without changing the gameplay experience.

Gonna call you up on that one. There can be a hell of a lot of difference here, even between 1080p and 720p. In particular in startegy/simulation games with a ton of UI elements and probably many game world entities on screen. (Also, I'd harken back to the tiny text in Dead Rising on the X360.)

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

To reiterate: Xbox Scorpio is around the same power as AMD R9 390x, which means native 4k30 is barely achievable.

Interesting read from Ars Technica: Xbox Project Scorpio: Will it really do 4K?

To be honest, all I can see it coming down to is "my 4K dick is bigger than yours" and "my pixels are less compressed". I own X360, PS3, PS4, Xbox One. If I had to sell any one of those consoles, it would be the Xbox One. My reason? The games and the OS. PS4 has far more interesting titles, and the Xbox One interface is a chore to use. 4K won't fix that.

SolvableKnave

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Nope. They mentioned native 4K gaming so they'll start high and work their way down.

It's going to be a massive jump for console gamers and I am looking forward to see what Sony put forward to compete. Right now its looking like Sony will be left in the light weight division but that might only be for a while. We will see next year.

How many people have 4K TV's? How many, of the numerous cable providers across all regions, provide 4K services? I know Netflix are rolling out their 4K service soon/now. Purchase of a Scorpio and 4k TV is gonna cost quite a chunk.

IMO, 4K gaming will be in the same boat as 3D and VR, a technical accomplishment but a niche experience, at least for a while. 3D was the Next Big Thing and is back where it came from. VR is the current Next Big Thing and, while we may see an initial flood of titles, I honestly don't think it will have the staying power. Of these 3 Next Big Thing's, 4K will be the slow burner but will come to be the norm, when the hardware becomes affordable and cable providers actually migrate their services over, as happened with SD to HD.

heebusjeebus

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Actually its based on new tech from AMD that won't release until next year.

They won't release a 4k native gaming system for anything less than 30 fps. Thats a given.

The XBox 1, can barely manage 1080/30 so I dont see how you've so much faith in Scorpio providing 4K/30 with only vague specs announced.

K.O.Kiki

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Actually its based on new tech from AMD that won't release until next year.

They won't release a 4k native gaming system for anything less than 30 fps. Thats a given.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-xbox-one-project-scorpio-spec-analysis

Based on existing AMD Radeon technology, the bottom line is that 6TF of GPU power isn't enough to power a convincing 4K experience. AMD's R9 390X offers around 5.9TF and struggles to push 4K resolution at anything like 30fps on modern PC titles. Now, we can assume that the move to the next-gen GCN architecture will give us some efficiency improvements, but it's hard to believe that this is enough to turn a 390X-level GPU into a top-tier Radeon R9 Fury X equivalent (8.4TF).

And they've already proven that they're perfectly willing to release a console that struggles to deliver 1080p60 gameplay.

Not to be a knob, but you're coming off as a mindless fanboy.

MiskyBoyy

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Not to be a knob, but you're coming off as a mindless fanboy.

If we're going to start calling names. There's plenty of other "fanboys" in here.

Let's not go down that road eh...

Sieghardt

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The developers of Hawken have actually just spoken about how complex the console porting process can be: http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/06/15/porting-a-pc-game-to-console-is-not-always-as-easy-as-it-sounds

It is far, far from a case of just down rendering to 900p/1080p and hit the release button. Some games simply cannot be ported, due to the complexity of the controls, UI or other features.

Hawken is extremely dumbed down and simplified compared to Armored Core AND their UI developer recently passed away, what an awful example to try to use