The user politics of FCP fees

BoatMad

its funny, in all my discussions about this ,both online and f2f , they person most advocating a fee regime is typically one that doesnt use FCPs regularly and seems to want to use a fee regime to ensure they ( the FCPs) are freed up ( for them ?).

Yet clearly actually what we need as an " industry" or sector, is the reverse, long queues in front of chargers that demonstrates the EV sector is taking off and investment is needed

I am perplexed as to why bringing in fees solely to deal with an issue ( over use) that doesn't really exist is a logical argument

At the moment there are no issues really. But I have a feeling that "sustainable" transport system shouldn't encourage unlimited free usage and actually increase in CO2 emissions of the transport per vehicle. In our case for example the driven kilometres per year went up from 10k -> 25k+ partially because it's interesting to see how the Tesco Cork prices compares to Tesco Maynooth.

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

At the moment there are no issues really. But I have a feeling that "sustainable" transport system shouldn't encourage unlimited free usage and actually increase in CO2 emissions of the transport per vehicle. In our case for example the driven kilometres per year went up from 10k -> 25k+ partially because it's interesting to see how the Tesco Cork prices compares to Tesco Maynooth.

we are confining our discussions to EVs, hence there is no additional Co2 at point of motoring , the power generation C02 is a debates about renewables ( norway does it for example)

There is no significant environmental disadvantage to long distance driving per se. ( in a full EV)

Th issue isn't free for ever , its free until we get EV usage to mainstream levels as per the Gov target of 10,000 cars by 2020 . once the market number are established then you have the volume to have a proper functioning public commercial charger setup

TBi

I'd be happy if they were free while charging but charged you if you hog it. Free up to 80% (or whatever gives you a decent charge in a fast time), minor cost from 80-100% and then an increasing cost for every hour you spend there not charging.

BoatMad

TBi wrote: »

I'd be happy if they were free while charging but charged you if you hog it. Free up to 80% (or whatever gives you a decent charge in a fast time), minor cost from 80-100% and then an increasing cost for every hour you spend there not charging.

what are the stats on people hogging chargers, none has any data, I suspect its not really a problem worth fixing for the few hard cases out there

TBi

BoatMad wrote: »

what are the stats on people hogging chargers, none has any data, I suspect its not really a problem worth fixing for the few hard cases out there

Possibly there is no issue, but with range anxiety and the fact that i could be stuck at a charging point for hours waiting for someone to move is a reason i haven't gone electric yet.

My option doesn't affect the pick up of electric vehicles and also removes some peoples worry. I've no idea why anyone would be against it.

BoatMad

TBi wrote: »

Possibly there is no issue, but with range anxiety and the fact that i could be stuck at a charging point for hours waiting for someone to move is a reason i haven't gone electric yet.

My option doesn't affect the pick up of electric vehicles and also removes some peoples worry. I've no idea why anyone would be against it.

yes I see no issue with your option

I do see that for example in the UK proposed fees look very smilar to the recent proposed ESB ones, i.e. DCQC would be dearer then diesel

oinkely

I've been regularly using the same public charge point recently. I usually get to it at about 30% and park the car there on the ac charger for a couple of hours while in work. Walk back to pick it up when its around 80%. There's a rapid there too but the ac suits better. Given that its in prime ev territory (dunlaoghaire - tesco at Parke pointe) I expected to see a lot more use of the rapid. Surprisingly in the past two weeks I have seen only one other EV use the rapid there. So my anectodal experience is that there isn't a major issue. Granted there are probably areas where there is problem usage and perhaps a charging regime might help to alleviate. Making it more expensive than an ice would not be a good idea IMO though.

BoatMad

oinkely wrote: »

I've been regularly using the same public charge point recently. I usually get to it at about 30% and park the car there on the ac charger for a couple of hours while in work. Walk back to pick it up when its around 80%. There's a rapid there too but the ac suits better. Given that its in prime ev territory (dunlaoghaire - tesco at Parke pointe) I expected to see a lot more use of the rapid. Surprisingly in the past two weeks I have seen only one other EV use the rapid there. So my anectodal experience is that there isn't a major issue. Granted there are probably areas where there is problem usage and perhaps a charging regime might help to alleviate. Making it more expensive than an ice would not be a good idea IMO though.

paradoxically we dont want barren charging stations, we actually want them overflowing with EVs drivers screaming for more infrastructure

barren chargers, ,mean they will not be maintained and point to a future where public charging will never pay for itself . The net result will be no charger infrastructure

it has to get a lot worse !!!. before it gets better

oinkely

Well, perhaps locating rapids on national arteries to facilitate travelling and lots of ac in shopping centres / town centres would be a good plan. Haven't used the EV for long distances so can't comment on the national situation. However a brief look at the charge map shows an appalling lack of infrastructure on some of the main arteries.

BoatMad

oinkely wrote: »

Well, perhaps locating rapids on national arteries to facilitate travelling and lots of ac in shopping centres / town centres would be a good plan. Haven't used the EV for long distances so can't comment on the national situation. However a brief look at the charge map shows an appalling lack of infrastructure on some of the main arteries.

I dont think the future is AC or destination charging myself , I think with long range BEVs, the future is DCQC charging " parks " rather like the Tesla idea, situated as you say at key road loci. its the only way 150 and 200Kw type charging will be possible

roadside AC like the current SCPs is a nonsense idea and only works because we have a handful of EVs at present. To prevent them all being totally blocked up, you'd need 1000s if you had any population of EVs and are you going to fight your way across dublin to then find a SCP in use , no not likely

pwurple

I think the infrastructure will become less and less of an issue as the range on the cars increases. Most people will charge in their homes and not use the infrastructure.

The last time i used an fcp near my home, i was driving from waterford to cork, and back to waterford in one night. One off experience, and i was happy it was available.

While i was there, an EV taxi pulled up. A 2011 leaf. He asked how long i was going to take, i had just arrived, and said i was going to charge to 80%. i asked him how often he used the charger... 4 sometimes 5 charges times a night. Charges to 100% each time. Said he meets someone there maybe once a night.

Now, to me, that's bonkers usage. Firstly it makes no sense for a taxi to be waiting at a point instead of earning, also, there must be shag all range left on it with that charging behaviour... So he will have to refuse customers at some stage, giving a bad EV rep, but also, using public infrastructure for private gain bothered me slightly.

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

I dont think the future is AC or destination charging myself , I think with long range BEVs, the future is DCQC charging " parks " rather like the Tesla idea, situated as you say at key road loci. its the only way 150 and 200Kw type charging will be possible

roadside AC like the current SCPs is a nonsense idea and only works because we have a handful of EVs at present. To prevent them all being totally blocked up, you'd need 1000s if you had any population of EVs and are you going to fight your way across dublin to then find a SCP in use , no not likely

I agree largely.... however roadside AC is definitely here to stay. A lot of people only have on street parking.

BMW installed some nice three phase AC chargepoints built into street lights outside their office in Munich.

heliguyheliguy

I think the solution lies in location,
Locate the fast chargers where they are most needed, along the motorways where there is nothing else to do but wait for your charge to finish (maybe grab a coffee).
Shopping centers, cinemas and town centers are destinations so should have destination chargers.
I would prefer to see 100 13amp sockets available at parking spaces than the 2 or 4 designated 22kw points we have now at these locations. (similar cost)
I see no benefit to the long term goal of increased uptake of ev`s in a fee based system; especially one that threatens the economics of their use.

side note: the production of electricity from coal at the scale of a power station produces only 10% of the co2/kw of a petrol car.

heliguyheliguy

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

side note: the production of electricity from coal at the scale of a power station produces only 10% of the co2/kw of a petrol car.

It's not the Co2 from coal you should be worried about, Co2 is harmless and won't kill you, the PM, Nox and Thorium emitted from Coal is far more dangerous.

Back OT, AC iis very useful and the on street AC points suit low range electric cars at the moment especially those of us who bought the 6.6 Kw charger, it's fantastic. The AC points have meant on many occasions I didn't have to wait around at fast chargers for ages.

It remains to be seen whether the Gen II Leaf in 2018 will have the 60 Kwh battery as standard, there is a good chance they will offer multiple pack sizes to keep costs down and so the customer can choose the range that best meets their needs so AC may still have a big part to play for the foreseeable future but the manufacturers need to have more powerful AC chargers as standard, 3.3 Kw is a joke. BMW are upgrading theirs to what, 11 Kw ? this is really good for Irish buyers with so many 22 KW AC points.

Faster DC will be needed when batteries reach 60 Kw but we're already behind because of lack of funding and any Government funding will be a long time away yet so our DC network will be in big trouble so it could be well past 2018 when we see 100+ DC chargers appear.

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not the Co2 from coal you should be worried about, Co2 is harmless and won't kill you, the PM, Nox and Thorium emitted from Coal is far more dangerous.

While it is true that the other particulates from coal are more toxic at a local level to say co2 is harmless is ignorant (try holding your breath) it is not the need for oxygen that causes that panic, it is the need to remove co2 from your body.

Due to rising co2 levels we are seeing regional climate shifting northward at approx 10 meters per day and while admittedly this has little impact on humans (especially western or rich nations); the current rate of extinction of other species has not been seen for 65 million years, the time dinosaurs went bye bye.
This is just one of the well documented effects of post industrial co2 emissions there are many more. If interested there is a lot of very good work on the subject for anybody interested in learning about it.

Probably because it's complete Bullcrap !

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably because it's complete Bullcrap !

you told me

BoatMad

Faster DC will be needed when batteries reach 60 Kw but we're already behind because of lack of funding and any Government funding will be a long time away yet so our DC network will be in big trouble so it could be well past 2018 when we see 100+ DC chargers appear.

I think thats a key point, The Gov needs to swing behind the charging network certainly to accelerate the uptake of EVs

heliguyheliguy

I have a feeling that maybe just maybe a charging network may never be a viable commercial venture on our little Ireland.

As the range of ev`s continues to grow it won`t be long until there is nowhere out of range in Ireland, therefore destination chargers could be the practical choice.

I`m not suggesting that there will never be circumstances that require fcp`s and the faster they are the better for us; but will this demand be enough to make it profitable?

And with low demand the price will have to be high which will in turn make it less popular as people start to plan their journeys to avoid these high fees.

It might be that fcp`s will always be dependent of public support or it`s possible that they become a feature of other business models ie. restaurants trying to attract customers.

I would not be investing in charging infrastructure for profit as things are.

It`s a tough call, it will be needed to move forward but if there`s no money in it who is going to bear the cost?

stesaurus

It's an interesting question. You could say we won't need it as we'll have have batteries with 100kwh+ which is great but how do you charge them from empty? Home charging at 16a won't suffice unless you only need limited range the next morning, even 32a will be pushing it and won't fully charge these bigger batteries overnight. Then when you start adding in people who do multiple trips per day, commercial users, tourists etc. then of course you could have a realistically viable commercial network.
My own opinion is that we'll see a reduction in the number of sites that have chargers but those that stay will have a number of chargers. Grids will need to be upgraded but it would suit the public far more to have Tesla style fast charger complexes dotted at at outskirts of key areas, Cork, Galway, Dublin, Wexford, Midlands, Donegal etc.

What "high fees" are we talking about ? If you charge a couple of times a year form the DC network with a 300-350 Km range battery then who cares about charger fees ?

A 100 Kw battery can be charged and ready over a couple of nights for that 320 mile trip.

Fast chargers will be needed absolutely and a lot more and a lot faster than 45 Kw.

A 100 Kw battery in a car is a ridiculous waste of resources, I really hope EV makers opt for multiple battery options so people can pay based on their needs.

If you have a 300 km range Ev and could charge in 20 mins to 80% I don't think most people need more than this.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

What "high fees" are we talking about ? If you charge a couple of times a year form the DC network with a 300-350 Km range battery then who cares about charger fees ?

A 100 Kw battery can be charged and ready over a couple of nights for that 320 mile trip.

Fast chargers will be needed absolutely and a lot more and a lot faster than 45 Kw.

A 100 Kw battery in a car is a ridiculous waste of resources, I really hope EV makers opt for multiple battery options so people can pay based on their needs.

If you have a 300 km range Ev and could charge in 20 mins to 80% I don't think most people need more than this.

Nobody needs a 3L diesel right now but there are plenty of them. What people need and what they expect to get is very different and unlikely to change in the medium term.

EV makers will of course provide different battery sizes. They have to as the price for the large batteries would make it unafforable for most. Its no different to ICE in that they provide a range of sizes which affects price, power, range etc.

People wont change to EV en-masse until they get the 300km range and I agree the home charging will do most of it. Most wont use the 300km range daily and so night charging will cover it with the public network as a Plan B.

The "shape" of that charging network is going to be a sticky one. I dont know what way it will go but I bet Government policy is ultimately what is going to decide alot of it and the EV owners need to lobby.

BoatMad

I personally think we will see battery capacities expand over the next 20 years. We could see 100-150 -200 kWh batteries in luxury sedans etc.

It's clear that this is not home charging territory.

The more I look at it the more I think Tesla have called it correctly , more range on the car coupled with large format high powered charging parks.
It should be noted that these charger parks are FREE !

yqtwqxqm

I like the idea of charging parks alright, several fcps in the middle of nowhere on the motorways every 100Km.
You could space them far apart because the chances of getting to one and not being able to charge are slim because of many chargers. At the moment that chance is high and it will ruin your day for sure.

I went from Balbriggan to Enniscorthy on Monday.
It took me 4 hrs. Most of the extra time was waiting in queues at the fcps.
Its the diesel for anymore long trips for me.

Once solid state batteries arrive within the next 10 years we'll have ranges that possibly surpass that of diesels in the meantime Li batteries are good enough.

VW are pushing for 800 Volts and lesser currents or similar currents and this is what is needed because higher currents pose greater stresses and lesser efficiency and usually but not always, less reliability.

Anyway what this means is in the not so distant future we'll at some point face a whole new charging standard.

BoatMad

yqtwqxqm wrote: »

I like the idea of charging parks alright, several fcps in the middle of nowhere on the motorways every 100Km.
You could space them far apart because the chances of getting to one and not being able to charge are slim because of many chargers. At the moment that chance is high and it will ruin your day for sure.

I went from Balbriggan to Enniscorthy on Monday.
It took me 4 hrs. Most of the extra time was waiting in queues at the fcps.
Its the diesel for anymore long trips for me.

Given you have chargers at Lucan bray , coynes ( currently out of service ) Wicklow , Gorey

I fail to see how that journey takes anything like you say.

I do Gorey Dublin and back several times a week. Very rarely have to queue

I never take the diesel on any long trip now at all. I use the leaf exclusively on long trips and I have 11k Km in 7 weeks as proof

yqtwqxqm

BoatMad wrote: »

Given you have chargers at Lucan bray , coynes ( currently out of service ) Wicklow , Gorey

I fail to see how that journey takes anything like you say.

I do Gorey Dublin and back several times a week. Very rarely have to queue

I never take the diesel on any long trip now at all. I use the leaf exclusively on long trips and I have 11k Km in 7 weeks as proof

I dont know how rare it is. Im just telling you how long that trip took me the other day. It was time I didnt have that day. Maybe it depends on the time of day, but if it happened once it can happen again. Its actually happened a couple of times now that my day has been ruined by queueing at chargers.
If there is any chance of it then I will take the diesel. So its diesel from now on for long trips.

Charged at Wicklow town. When I arrived, one car was charging, another waiting. I got in after him. When I got to Gorey one of those same cars were there and another one before me.

Then charged at Gorey - to make sure I have enough to get back to Wicklow town on the way back should Gorey be either out or a queue.

Total driving time was about 2 hrs 15 mins. Total sitting either waiting at the chargers or charging was just under 2 hrs. So total was just over 4 hours.

On the plus side there was nobody at the wicklow charger on the way back at 10pm. So the journey back only took me 2hrs 40 mins.

I do that in the diesel in less than 2 hours every time.

BoatMad

yqtwqxqm wrote: »

I dont know how rare it is. Im just telling you how long that trip took me the other day. It was time I didnt have that day. Maybe it depends on the time of day, but if it happened once it can happen again. Its actually happened a couple of times now that my day has been ruined by queueing at chargers.
If there is any chance of it then I will take the diesel. So its diesel from now on for long trips.

Charged at Wicklow town. When I arrived, one car was charging, another waiting. I got in after him. When I got to Gorey one of those same cars were there and another one before me.

Then charged at Gorey - to make sure I have enough to get back to Wicklow town on the way back should Gorey be either out or a queue.

Total driving time was about 2 hrs 15 mins. Total sitting either waiting at the chargers or charging was just under 2 hrs. So total was just over 4 hours.

On the plus side there was nobody at the wicklow charger on the way back at 10pm. So the journey back only took me 2hrs 40 mins.

I do that in the diesel in less than 2 hours every time.

Presently Wicklow is seeing extra because coynes is out.

I except your right. I would never use a EV for time sensitive long distance travel that relied on fcps.

It's also a major reason why they should remain free for the present ,else we bill the esb for our time lost!!!!

yqtwqxqm

BoatMad wrote: »

Presently Wicklow is seeing extra because coynes is out.

I except your right. I would never use a EV for time sensitive long distance travel that relied on fcps.

It's also a major reason why they should remain free for the present ,else we bill the esb for our time lost!!!!

If there was another fcp at Arklow that would make a huge difference to that trip. But going back to your original post, I for one do not think its a good idea to be seeing queues at chargers, especially when i am in them.
Build a network that has plenty of capacity so that people only have good experiences when trying to charge. Then the customers will come.

My passenger that day and im pretty sure anyone else they talk to about it, wont ever be getting an ev.

And when the trip started out they were loving the car and asking so many questions about whether they could buy one and replace their car.
And then it came to the stopping for ages to charge.
Needless to say, there was a definite shift from "I want one ...." to "Its a pity ..." in the conversation for the next few hours. They didnt travel back with me that night, but id say they were glad it was a one way trip for them.

BoatMad

yqtwqxqm wrote: »

If there was another fcp at Arklow that would make a huge difference to that trip. But going back to your original post, I for one do not think its a good idea to be seeing queues at chargers, especially when i am in them.
Build a network that has plenty of capacity so that people only have good experiences when trying to charge. Then the customers will come.

My passenger that day and im pretty sure anyone else they talk to about it, wont ever be getting an ev.

And when the trip started out they were loving the car and asking so many questions about whether they could buy one and replace their car.
And then it came to the stopping for ages to charge.
Needless to say, there was a definite shift from "I want one ...." to "Its a pity ..." in the conversation for the next few hours. They didnt travel back with me that night, but id say they were glad it was a one way trip for them.

There is one installed in the south gorey m11 service station , if that ever opens

I think myself, that tesla style 8-10 bay super charger style installations ( free to use as well ) coupled with EVs that have better range will be far better then the ridiculous charger infrastructure we have now , it's key drawback being it's utterly unable to scale and you can see the huge issues that arise when just a few EVs try and access it at the same time.

BoatMad told me queuing wasn't an issue despite me regularly queuing at Naas and Newlands for 9 months of daily fast charger usage. He only has his a few months.

Perhaps all the fuss I made on facebook and actually made people think about those who need the chargers or perhaps don't want to face someone who really needs it.

There was one woman I met one evening at Naas who was there for the free juice and holy Jesus did she make a fuss about it on FB or what ? anyway maybe people are not wanting to face the hassle over a lousy 1 Euro's something's worth of electricity or maybe Naas and Newlands is just as busy ? I don't know any more because fast charging is rare for me now but to say queuing is no issue is plain wrong especially with all the Facebook craziness back then, but as I said , maybe people realise now that charging at home is actually better for everyone.

BoatMad

There was one woman I met one evening at Naas who was there for the free juice and holy Jesus did she make a fuss about it on FB or what ? anyway maybe people are not wanting to face the hassle over a lousy 1 Euro's something's worth of electricity or maybe Naas and Newlands is just as busy ? I don't know any more because fast charging is rare for me now but to say queuing is no issue is plain wrong especially with all the Facebook craziness back then, but as I said , maybe people realise now that charging at home is actually better for everyone.

thats would be fine if is was 1 euro,the proposals would have made it more then 10euros and worked out dearer then diesel

Naas is a mad spot and should be removed , thats the simple answer, FCPs, should be in windswept spots on the side of major roads

Id say Ive been in more FCPs then you mad_lad, and thats all thats matters, most down the country are free with no queuing , on 30 visits for far to athlone, carlow , and kilbeggan , Ive had to queue once at athlone for about 10 minutes and never in the other two

If all you do is visit the same FCP , you do not form a proper perspective on the issue as a whole, you need to get around more, but then you use the diesel l for that dont you! for example If all I did was repeatedly visit Gorey , I would form a view of FCP hogging that is totally wrong , elapsed time is irrelevant , its visiting multiple FCPs that count

Coynes gets busy at rush hours when people are on the way home , so I avoid that time, Wexford , never had to queue , or at least 10 visits by now, I tend to visit Coynes out of rush hour and yes there is sometime a queue at other times there ( not surprising )

waterford , 1 queue ( 40 minutes , couldnt work out what the guy was doing ) , all the rest were free, wexford , no queue in Nissan , no queue in Nissan Dungarvan, no queue in Topaz frank field in Cork ( despite lots of ICE traffic in general ) , no queue in Topaz Tempelvile road, not queue in DUnlaoghaire FCP, no Queue in maldron stillorgan ( all multiple visits )

Queue in Midway and Nass was Iced, till I asked her to move , no EV queue , but these are in frequent FCP chargers for me

Ive left out many more that are single visits

Gorey is definitely an issue and is the direct fault of the Taxi ( I believe there are two )


the fact is folks , we cannot expect a a FCP to be free when we arrive, as EVS grow the charger network will not keep up that clear, right now we are spoiled

So you're telling me that as a commuter visiting the same 2 FCP's daily didn't give me a proper perspective ? Like I'm somewhat not entitled or in a position to give a factual opinion ? I don't know why you think you're in a superior position to be able to try talk down to me because you're all of a sudden an EV owner or have the time to be a member of the Irish EV owners Association Committee. The fact is Naas and Newlands Is/Was a black spot and the DC network should serve the busiest part of the country a lot better.

There was a very heated Facebook debate at the time on the original Irish EV Owners FB group, not the association that you're a committee member of where people are vastly more civilised but have a lot less members, So I obviously wasn't the only one experiencing this and it wasn't just newlands or Naas either. But that was probably long before you became interested in electrics.

As I said no one will care about the cost of fast chargers when the range improves to 300 + kms because most people will charge at home with the "odd" fast charge, people with no access to home charging , well this issue is far more important to address than fast charger costs and should be debated in the Dail.

The most important thing for EV adoption is range, the DC network and home charging for apartment owners and people with no driveways.

yqtwqxqm

I think your average commuter would actually be taking the same route to work every day around rush hour, therefore using whatever chargers are on that route. Thats a much more realistic commute than someone going all over the place to different places at different times.

Exactly and driving off peak isn't a good way to judge the DC network !!!

Marcusm

BoatMad wrote: »

I personally think we will see battery capacities expand over the next 20 years. We could see 100-150 -200 kWh batteries in luxury sedans etc.

It's clear that this is not home charging territory.

The more I look at it the more I think Tesla have called it correctly , more range on the car coupled with large format high powered charging parks.
It should be noted that these charger parks are FREE !

Isn't that key to their business model to encourage usability and customer stickiness. Nissan are probably agnostic as to whether, once they have sold you a Leaf, whether you purchase another one or revert back to ICE as they have significant offerings in that sector too. Tesla on the other hand NEEDS to ensure that customers can charge. Having spent many moons traversing UK motorways, I have rarely seen moe than one Tesla charging at a time but there are always 6-8 available bays. That will assist in attracting more high value customers who want that consistency and who are not price conscious.

It strikes me that the governmental input should be legislative rather than financial. For example, every dealership selling EVs should be required to provide 1 or 2 charging points for public access. Likewise, each fuel station with more than (say) 8 pumps should be required to provide charging points at their cost.

BoatMad

yqtwqxqm wrote: »

I think your average commuter would actually be taking the same route to work every day around rush hour, therefore using whatever chargers are on that route. Thats a much more realistic commute than someone going all over the place to different places at different times.

yes but as far as ascertaining the issue of hogging, all ones sees is the effect in one or two FCP locations, you cannot then generalise any more that that

for example if you visit Nass FCP repeatedly , and you find hogging an issue, you cannot then generalise that all FCPs are like this or even that hogging is a problem in anything other then the FCP you have experience of

In my case I hit some FCP and peak commuter times ( typically M11 corridor ) and then I hot a lot of other FCPs at all sorts of times. ( Ive actually found saturday to be busy )

This has relevance , because what I see is that caertain people ( and more then on here ) make the following statement

1. "x' charger is always blocked
2. fees should be brought in to regulate the FCP usage
3. " I dont use FCP that much anyway "

1. is undoutbaly true , 2. is a unsupported generalisation , 3, is self-centric

See BoatMad, you weren't around the original Irish EV owners Facebook Group and lucky for you too, it wasn't a pleasant place.

There was a lot of debate and anger over charger hogging. There are a lot more members on that group than on the Association. I created a mega uproar because I suggested people charge at home when they don't need to use the DC.

Maybe people have realised that it's better to charge at home now and it has made a difference, but I've not used Naas or Newlands cross DC in a long time.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

See BoatMad, you weren't around the original Irish EV owners Facebook Group and lucky for you too, it wasn't a pleasant place.

There was a lot of debate and anger over charger hogging. There are a lot more members on that group than on the Association. I created a mega uproar because I suggested people charge at home when they don't need to use the DC.

Maybe people have realised that it's better to charge at home now and it has made a difference, but I've not used Naas or Newlands cross DC in a long time.

Im well aware of the issues in relation to that

I am also aware that there is a cohort of users that abuse the FCP system rattle then charging at home,

BUT , these are not necessarily the " hoggers" . To me a hogger is a person that plugs in to an FCP and disappears even though the car is charged. A hogger is not a person that finds they need to repeatedly charge at FCPs.

I like you , completely understand that home charging should be the first port of call with current EVs and I said so at the recent IEVOA AGM

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

To me a hogger is a person that plugs in to an FCP and disappears even though the car is charged.

A hogger is not a person that finds they need to repeatedly charge at FCPs.

A hogger is someone who uses the network because they can and not because they need to also Someone who is also looking to save money by not charging at home.

I've no problem with someone hogging chargers as long as they move on when someone pulls up who needs it.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I like you , completely understand that home charging should be the first port of call with current EVs and I said so at the recent IEVOA AGM

Boatmad, I think the punctuation and the first three words of that paragraph is a Freudian slip. You and mad lad should really meet up!

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Boatmad, I think the punctuation and the first three words of that paragraph is a Freudian slip. You and mad lad should really meet up!

hmmm...........:D:D:D:D

yqtwqxqm

BoatMad wrote: »

yes but as far as ascertaining the issue of hogging, all ones sees is the effect in one or two FCP locations, you cannot then generalise any more that that

for example if you visit Nass FCP repeatedly , and you find hogging an issue, you cannot then generalise that all FCPs are like this or even that hogging is a problem in anything other then the FCP you have experience of

In my case I hit some FCP and peak commuter times ( typically M11 corridor ) and then I hot a lot of other FCPs at all sorts of times. ( Ive actually found saturday to be busy )

This has relevance , because what I see is that caertain people ( and more then on here ) make the following statement

1. "x' charger is always blocked
2. fees should be brought in to regulate the FCP usage
3. " I dont use FCP that much anyway "

1. is undoutbaly true , 2. is a unsupported generalisation , 3, is self-centric

I didnt say hogging.
I said queues at fcps. And Ive seen queuing often enough for it to be a problem for me. Several times that it has effectively ruined my day and that of my passengers.
We need to be able to pull up at a charging station and fill up, just like in a petrol station.

BoatMad

yqtwqxqm wrote: »

I didnt say hogging.
I said queues at fcps. And Ive seen queuing often enough for it to be a problem for me. Several times that it has effectively ruined my day and that of my passengers.
We need to be able to pull up at a charging station and fill up, just like in a petrol station.

Unfortunately , with the current scatter gun approach to siting FCPs and the low range of todays EVs, expecting tesla style charging parks will not happen in the short term

Nor is a fee regime a way to reduce queues, other then killing EV take-up

The fact is to get EVs on the map , we have to build numbers of EVs. Thats make the Gov sit up and take notice

However the downside will be increasing queueing at single point FCPs , its going to be a reality of EV ownership

yqtwqxqm

BoatMad wrote: »

Unfortunately , with the current scatter gun approach to siting FCPs and the low range of todays EVs, expecting tesla style charging parks will not happen in the short term

Nor is a fee regime a way to reduce queues, other then killing EV take-up

The fact is to get EVs on the map , we have to build numbers of EVs. Thats make the Gov sit up and take notice

However the downside will be increasing queueing at single point FCPs , its going to be a reality of EV ownership

I had a person practically sold on buying an EV with me in the car. By the end of the trip after the queuing, himself and anybody he speaks to now will not be buying an ev. Thats the reality.

Also ive spoken to a lot of people driving ices who wandered over to watch me charging and were very quick to cop on that i would be there some time before i could continue. None were impressed with evs after that.

Maybe they won't buy them in their current low range form but when the 300 + kms come this should be an issue, reliance on the DC network will be greatly reduced.

Sadly I can't see many more if any new DC points being installed in Ireland before 2018 and probably later without Government funding or more E.U donations.

September1

yqtwqxqm wrote: »

I had a person practically sold on buying an EV with me in the car. By the end of the trip after the queuing, himself and anybody he speaks to now will not be buying an ev. Thats the reality.

Also ive spoken to a lot of people driving ices who wandered over to watch me charging and were very quick to cop on that i would be there some time before i could continue. None were impressed with evs after that.

It takes 20-30 minutes to charge car even if there is no queue, which already is a factor that goes against EVs. When you add queues to that, you are looking at much more.