Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Hitman and Walter John, play the ball not the man

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, that's the thing, Frances Fitzgerald acted in good faith, so did Alan Shatter and Enda Kenny, but they don't get a pass from you, do they?

Hopefully that's for the authorities, (is there any point actually?) to decide. In fact Fine Gael have destroyed or at least presided over the destruction of the public concept or belief in impartial, transparency regarding the state and it's role in law, decency and fair play. Well done the law and order party.

She forgot very important information and for the period she remembered, did nothing regarding it. At best she's forgetful and very bad at her job.
If there's any semblance of justice, we'll see an investigation with teeth into all the players.

Odhinn

"The Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan has asked the Policing Authority to begin the process for the selection and appointment of a new permanent Garda Commissioner."
"It will be an open competition with no restrictions on the nationality of the candidate.

Mr Flanagan said that policing experience, while desirable, would not be an essential requirement."
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1212/926913-process-begins-to-find-new-garda-commissioner/

Certainly the cynical might say that experience would be a hindrance, given the way things are done here.

Seth Brundle

With a salary of €250k (an increase on previously) I can't see too many people with relevant experience of running large enterprise organisations lining up, never mind someone who is willing to take on the corruption and rot within.
Bet the successful candidate comes from within!

Odhinn

kbannon wrote: »

With a salary of €250k (an increase on previously) I can't see too many people with relevant experience of running large enterprise organisations lining up, never mind someone who is willing to take on the corruption and rot within.
Bet the successful candidate comes from within!

Very dissapointing from the FF spokesperson on Justice this morning - didn't see the need for a clear out of top management, didn't see the need to remove the security responsibility from the Gardai - very conservative overall.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

Very dissapointing from the FF spokesperson on Justice this morning - didn't see the need for a clear out of top management, didn't see the need to remove the security responsibility from the Gardai - very conservative overall.

Maybe just being practical.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Maybe just being practical.

Not really. There's little point in grafting a new head on a diseased body.

James Brown

There's complaints about inefficiencies in health linked to bad policies, over staffing/pay etc. With the Garda we've recorded incompetence, fraudulent recordings, bad management of budgets, cronyism and on and on.

It's become very clear that the Garda is a politics heavy organisation. Like most things our politicians don't seem to want to make any big changes. Happy with a lick of paint and toothless investigation. Just complain about how bad the whole thing is, change nothing and move on.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

Not really. There's little point in grafting a new head on a diseased body.

Little point in leaving one of the most important organisations without a rudder while you look for an entire management team you think might be palatable.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Little point in leaving one of the most important organisations without a rudder while you look for an entire management team you think might be palatable.

.....rather strange way of looking at it. A lot of these people were appointed and worked alongside O'Sullivan/Callinan. It's only logical they go.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Little point in leaving one of the most important organisations without a rudder while you look for an entire management team you think might be palatable.

If it's a temp position while the organisation is ripped apart and reassembled, fair enough. They can also tackle the, 'it was like that when I got here' Justice department right up to Ministerial level.
It's almost amusing that the Taoiseach believes the DOJ is not fit for purpose, like they just got the keys this morning. I'm sure he'll get right on it....

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If it's a temp position while the organisation is ripped apart and reassembled, fair enough. They can also tackle the, 'it was like that when I got here' Justice department right up to Ministerial level.
It's almost amusing that the Taoiseach believes the DOJ is not fit for purpose, like they just got the keys this morning. I'm sure he'll get right on it....

Whatever about Ms O'Sullivan, the fact is - and I can't over emphasise this - that Martin Callinan brooked absolutely no "disloyalty" whatsover. It follows that those that flourished near and under him are compromised.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

.....rather strange way of looking at it. A lot of these people were appointed and worked alongside O'Sullivan/Callinan. It's only logical they go.

Odhinn wrote: »

Whatever about Ms O'Sullivan, the fact is - and I can't over emphasise this - that Martin Callinan brooked absolutely no "disloyalty" whatsover. It follows that those that flourished near and under him are compromised.

Even if they have done nothing wrong? Guild by association? Yeah, that's a great message to instill into the force from the top down.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Even if they have done nothing wrong? Guild by association? Yeah, that's a great message to instill into the force from the top down.

The hierarchy threw the ordinary members under the bus regards the breath tests.
As it stand the problem is cronyism and protectionism. The whole shower need replacing if possible. There's no guilt as such, they are found sub par as an organisation and need a complete refit. How they treated McCabe shows it's an institutional issue not one or two bad apples.

Water John

Jim O'Callaghan is a Barrister and thus an insider, largely.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Even if they have done nothing wrong? Guild by association? Yeah, that's a great message to instill into the force from the top down.

They were active and flourished under martin callinan. This does indeed raise questions about them. He did not operate in a vaccum - he was not some office clerk in a cubicle whose actions were not aided and abetted by others. He dictated culture, and rewarded those who corresponded with his own values. The wider public is only beginning to see what those "values" are now.

Water John

Those cronies will most likely retire early when the wind blows a different way. That may be part of the thinking. Also, with the earlier retirement in the Guards, it leads to an accelerated turnover.

Odhinn

Water John wrote: »

Those cronies will most likely retire early when the wind blows a different way. That may be part of the thinking. Also, with the earlier retirement in the Guards, it leads to an accelerated turnover.

You'd hope so, but why depend on hope? Clean sweep is needed at this stage. It was enough of a disgrace that O'Sullivan got the job after him, I don't think anything else should be left to chance.

Seth Brundle

Looks like the DoJ don't want an outsider with these weak theories...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/civilian-might-not-be-regarded-as-real-garda-commissioner-1.3326602

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

They were active and flourished under martin callinan. This does indeed raise questions about them. He did not operate in a vaccum - he was not some office clerk in a cubicle whose actions were not aided and abetted by others. He dictated culture, and rewarded those who corresponded with his own values. The wider public is only beginning to see what those "values" are now.

Raise questions all you want but you're advocating they be forced out of their jobs with no cause and with no replacement. Aside from the moral and legal consequences of this, who do you suggest will run the organisation while the search for their replacements goes on?

kbannon wrote: »

Looks like the DoJ don't want an outsider with these weak theories...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/civilian-might-not-be-regarded-as-real-garda-commissioner-1.3326602

I doubt that'd be an issue. The office of the commissioner has basically been an arm of the government for the last while so it'd wouldn't be much of a change to just put a non-garda there. There would be an issue with their lack of knowledge and experience in actual policing but it's nothing that isn't already faced by the organisation when dealing things like procurement and things like that.

Seth Brundle

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I doubt that'd be an issue. The office of the commissioner has basically been an arm of the government for the last while so it'd wouldn't be much of a change to just put a non-garda there. There would be an issue with their lack of knowledge and experience in actual policing but it's nothing that isn't already faced by the organisation when dealing things like procurement and things like that.

I don't disagree with you.
What I'm reading between the lines is that the DoJ appear to want someone who from within the ranks and therefore someone they presumably already are familiar with.
Fear of change in St. Stephen's Green?

Captain Obvious

kbannon wrote: »

I don't disagree with you.
What I'm reading between the lines is that the DoJ appear to want someone who from within the ranks and therefore someone they presumably already are familiar with.
Fear of change in St. Stephen's Green?

It'll be the commission that selects them won't it though?

Water John

Once it was signalled that the force wasn't going to be split in two, this was the natural follow on.
As always, you largely dictate who gets the job, by the spec you write into the tender.

Seth Brundle

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It'll be the commission that selects them won't it though?

The Policing Authority interview the candidates and nominate their preference.
Still, the DoJ appear to be lobbying IMO!

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Raise questions all you want but you're advocating they be forced out of their jobs with no cause and with no replacement. Aside from the moral and legal consequences of this, who do you suggest will run the organisation while the search for their replacements goes on?



I doubt that'd be an issue. The office of the commissioner has basically been an arm of the government for the last while so it'd wouldn't be much of a change to just put a non-garda there. There would be an issue with their lack of knowledge and experience in actual policing but it's nothing that isn't already faced by the organisation when dealing things like procurement and things like that.

Woukd that give any creedence to Murphy and others claims of political policing?

Captain Obvious

kbannon wrote: »

The Policing Authority interview the candidates and nominate their preference.
Still, the DoJ appear to be lobbying IMO!

Sorry I meant the Authority not the Commission. Didn't they put forward Pat Leahy? They seem to be doing a good job of getting non-political candidates through.

Captain Obvious

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Woukd that give any creedence to Murphy and others claims of political policing?

Not in the way they were suggesting, no.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Not in the way they were suggesting, no.

If the commissioners office was basically an arm of the govt, it'd be kinda hard to separate them.

Captain Obvious

Rick Shaw wrote: »

If the commissioners office was basically an arm of the govt, it'd be kinda hard to separate them.

Murphy was blaming political interference on his arrest for the Jobstown thing. That's just nonsense. That kind of thing is always going to be investigated locally. The political interference with policing in Ireland is all down to opitcs and statistics.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Raise questions all you want but you're advocating they be forced out of their jobs with no cause and with no replacement. Aside from the moral and legal consequences of this, who do you suggest will run the organisation while the search for their replacements goes on?

Clear outs of high level management are common when there is regime change at the top. A phased removal and series of promotions will ensure the place trundles on.