Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Seth Brundle

Odhinn wrote: »

A loaded question which ignores the specific nature of the situation. It would not be possible to rise to a high rank under callinan without his approval. This would require some level of complicity with his 'methods'. |Already we've had a case where a chief superintendent submitted false testimony to a government inquiry. There's been mutiple briefings by other high ranking officers against whistleblowers, and thats only whats in the public realm.

Bullsh1t!
I can think of one person who has risen despite not being a member of the old boys club.
Many of the senior ranks deserve to go but there are no criteria to differentiate the good honest members from the "obedient". Youre suggesting to punish those that succeeded based on merit. It's simply not practical.

Odhinn wrote: »

Again, this mistakes the situation for something that can arise in an office with an ordinary boss. There was nothing ordinary about martin callinan, his methods or demands.

If the boss fails and is removed and in the process, the management layer are removed also, why would anyone with an ounce of sense want to become part of management?

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

.....there are records, obviously.

Records of what? You gonna fire everyone who had a meeting with him or exchanged a phone call? You're just talking nonsense I think.

James Brown

People can be removed and replaced without any charges being brought or even blame assigned. They are public servants and paid to do as told. Authority can be given and taken.
Removing one or two won't cut it. If the bar is criminality, then leave well enough alone sure? It's about performance and accountability.

This habit FF/FG have of leaving things fester because it's too much hassle is bull.

Odhinn

kbannon wrote: »

Bullsh1t!
I can think of one person who has risen despite not being a member of the old boys club.
Many of the senior ranks deserve to go but there are no criteria to differentiate the good honest members from the "obedient". Youre suggesting to punish those that succeeded based on merit. It's simply not practical.

Its harsh but necessary.

kbannon wrote: »

If the boss fails and is removed and in the process, the management layer are removed also, why would anyone with an ounce of sense want to become part of management?

The "boss" was corrupt, on a number of levels. You again seem to be thinking this is some bunch of clerical errors that occurred.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Records of what? You gonna fire everyone who had a meeting with him or exchanged a phone call? You're just talking nonsense I think.

We were talking with regards promotion, specifically.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

People can be removed and replaced without any charges being brought or even blame assigned. They are public servants and paid to do as told. Authority can be given and taken.
Removing one or two won't cut it. If the bar is criminality, then leave well enough alone sure? It's about performance and accountability.

This habit FF/FG have of leaving things fester because it's too much hassle is bull.

What about their contracts of employment and workers rights?

Odhinn wrote: »

We were talking with regards promotion, specifically.

So fire everyone who got promoted during the tenure of the last two commissioners? Can you be a bit more specific about who you are looking to purge?

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What about their contracts of employment and workers rights?

I'm sure they'll be paid off.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So fire everyone who got promoted during the tenure of the last two commissioners? Can you be a bit more specific about who you are looking to purge?

Anyone who worked with either for any length of time, anyone promoted to or over the rank of chief superintendent.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What about their contracts of employment and workers rights?

Moving people within any organisation doesn't necessarily mean any employee rights are infringed upon. As for the higher positions, the idea that O'Sullivan or Fitzgerald could complain to HR say, about being removed due to incompetence, corruption or other activity (in an accountable state, unlike our own) is a bit silly. Even Trump holds people to account, albeit for reasons of self preservation. A lollipop man can be removed from office ffs..

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So fire everyone who got promoted during the tenure of the last two commissioners? Can you be a bit more specific about who you are looking to purge?

Nobody need be fired. they could remain in the Garda. maybe give them all similarly roles in Traffic or Museum security?

It's tiresome when pedantry is used to attempt to defend the indefensible. If Varadkar is not lying and has an issue with the DoJ, relating to the Garda handling of the McCabe case, has some passing concerns about the fraudulent breath tests, the removal/quashing of penalty points, justice and fair play in general, he could act. But he's likely blowing smoke and forgotten about the whole thing. Seemingly a big problem with Fine Gael ministers as regards justice and accountability.

tayto lover

Odhinn wrote: »

I'm sure they'll be paid off.



Anyone who worked with either for any length of time, anyone promoted to or over the rank of chief superintendent.

Surely then they'd be entitled to take an action just like Mc Cabe?

Odhinn

tayto lover wrote: »

Surely then they'd be entitled to take an action just like Mc Cabe?

I've no idea.

blanch152

Water John wrote: »

I don't think we need to look as far as NK. Radical cultural change was implemented in NI police force, just next to us.
No need to reinvent the wheel.

Don't remember everyone being fired overnight as is proposed on this thread.

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

.....there are records, obviously.

Records of what exactly?

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

Records of what exactly?

....are you being obtuse? Records of service and promotion.

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

I'm sure they'll be paid off.



Anyone who worked with either for any length of time, anyone promoted to or over the rank of chief superintendent.

This is the most costly preposterous idea ever proposed for reform of the garda.

49 people involved.

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=1710&Lang=1

As you have no good reason that would stand up in court to fire them, you would have to pay them all until compulsory retirement age.

Assume an average of ten years until retirement age.

2 Deputy Commissioners €150k - total cost €3m

8 Assistant Commissioners €135k - total cost €10.8m

49 Chief Superindents €98k - total cost €48m

So a round figure of €61m to remove the top layer of management in the gardai.

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

....are you being obtuse? Records of service and promotion.

And what could that prove? I have worked with people I dislike and disagree with and have worked around them in the past. My "service" record would show I worked with them, but how would that mean I am associated with them?

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the most costly preposterous idea ever proposed for reform of the garda.

49 people involved.

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=1710&Lang=1

As you have no good reason that would stand up in court to fire them, you would have to pay them all until compulsory retirement age.

Assume an average of ten years until retirement age.

2 Deputy Commissioners €150k - total cost €3m

8 Assistant Commissioners €135k - total cost €10.8m

49 Chief Superindents €98k - total cost €48m

So a round figure of €61m to remove the top layer of management in the gardai.

If thats what it takes its cheap at the price. I wouldn't imagine the reform of the RUC was free either.

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

And what could that prove? I have worked with people I dislike and disagree with and have worked around them in the past. My "service" record would show I worked with them, but how would that mean I am associated with them?

One doesn't flourish in the mafia by being a good citizen. Given callinans nature its a valid comparison.

James Brown

came across this on my travels:

Gardai wiped judge's licence, Daly tells Dail

Transport Minister Leo Varadkar last week confirmed the receipt of information alleging inappropriate use of legitimate garda procedures.

The matter was referred to Justice Minister Alan Shatter and justice officials are examining the claims.

The whistleblower compiled the information from printouts of the garda PULSE system relating to 50,000 cases where points had been removed.

Ms Daly said: "Honest gardai are being victimised because they have uncovered the systematic abuse of motoring charges and terminations to those of some very powerful and influential people."
https://www.herald.ie/news/gardai-wiped-judges-licence-daly-tells-dail-28962125.html

Japers, if only he knew there were issues within An Garda Síochána, him, Fitzgerald and Flanagan might have been prepped and taken note of emails and the like as they came in.

Fun one here:

"So how did the Minister at the time address the crisis? Did he stand up and take responsibility? Did he take steps to address it? No. He came before this House in May and insisted that he did not like the word ‘crisis’, complained that it was being used with ‘gay abandon’ and none of it was his ‘fault’."

Varadkar said of Deputy Martin that “despite having every opportunity, all the tools and plenty of time, he achieved little. Now he wants to be Taoiseach”.

"With such a legacy behind him, I am grateful for his advice. Any Health Minister could learn a lot from his mistakes and poor leadership. He is a poor example to follow and I won’t."

http://www.thejournal.ie/hospital-overcrowding-1881695-Jan2015/

Yet he did, with Gusto. No sign of any move to tackle the DoJ, he sure has the tools.

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the most costly preposterous idea ever proposed for reform of the garda.

49 people involved.

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=1710&Lang=1

As you have no good reason that would stand up in court to fire them, you would have to pay them all until compulsory retirement age.

Assume an average of ten years until retirement age.

2 Deputy Commissioners €150k - total cost €3m

8 Assistant Commissioners €135k - total cost €10.8m

49 Chief Superindents €98k - total cost €48m

So a round figure of €61m to remove the top layer of management in the gardai.

This is 17 years ago, so you'd have to adjust up from inflation.

"Almost 2,000 officers are expected to retire over the next few years to fulfil the recommendations of the Patten Report, which called for a reduction in RUC numbers to 7,500 and a higher proportion of Catholics in the Protestant-dominated force. The scheme, which will cost £200 million over five years, was described yesterday by Peter Mandelson, the Northern Ireland Secretary, as the "most generous" terms ever offered in the UK public sector."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1350297/RUC-retirement-offer-up-to-300000.html

Spanish Eyes

There is no cost too large really, in building up a seriously good professional force with an impartial non "up the ranks" insider running it anymore.

I would have no problem with the cost of clearing the place out TBH.

When you think about how much taxpayer money is spent on other things that do not give an obvious result. Spending this money would be a great investment.

I am all for it.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

Very dissapointing from the FF spokesperson on Justice this morning - didn't see the need for a clear out of top management, didn't see the need to remove the security responsibility from the Gardai - very conservative overall.

I meant to get back to this. Just for general information, the Gardai can justify various things on the grounds of a threat to "national security". A "threat to national security" is still in many cases what a garda of a certain rank say it is.
Former Garda press officer Superintendent David Taylor had a "file" opened on him. A file is only supposed to be kept on the most dangerous of criminals and those judged a threat to national security. Clearly this is a system without sufficient checks, wide open to abuse.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

I meant to get back to this. Just for general information, the Gardai can justify various things on the grounds of a threat to "national security". A "threat to national security" is still in many cases what a garda of a certain rank say it is.
Former Garda press officer Superintendent David Taylor had a "file" opened on him. A file is only supposed to be kept on the most dangerous of criminals and those judged a threat to national security. Clearly this is a system without sufficient checks, wide open to abuse.

Most of what you've said is nonsense and half facts.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't remember everyone being fired overnight as is proposed on this thread.

Was Martin Callinan not ?

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Most of what you've said is nonsense and half facts.

Ok, what precisely is "nonsense" and what parts are "half facts"?

Water John

He obviously, did not want to use the term Fake News, but that's what was meant.
Callinan officially 'retired'.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

Ok, what precisely is "nonsense" and what parts are "half facts"?

Odhinn wrote: »

Just for general information, the Gardai can justify various things on the grounds of a threat to "national security". A "threat to national security" is still in many cases what a garda of a certain rank say it is.

Half truth

Odhinn wrote: »

A file is only supposed to be kept on the most dangerous of criminals and those judged a threat to national security.

Nonsense

blanch152

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Was Martin Callinan not ?

One person, not dozens.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Half truth

What is the full truth?

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Nonsense

A "file" is garda parlance for a particular kind of record kept on a person deemed a threat to national security, afaik. You might enlighten me as to what you say the situation there is?

Muahahaha

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There is no cost too large really, in building up a seriously good professional force with an impartial non "up the ranks" insider running it anymore.

I would have no problem with the cost of clearing the place out TBH.

When you think about how much taxpayer money is spent on other things that do not give an obvious result. Spending this money would be a great investment.

I am all for it.

I would agree with this. In fact the 61 million figure mentioned earlier by blanch152 as a reason not to do it appears to me to be a very good reason to do it. We have almost 5 million citizens and it is 61 million, I dont know about others but I would gladly pay an extra 12 euro in taxes to see the Gardai reformed properly once and for all.

Even then I dont even think it would cost 61m as I dont believe you need to retire every single one of the 49 Chief Supers. There is a total of 9 Assistant Commissioners who are the inner circle in the Park, begin with them and then work your way down. Not everyone below that rank will be infected by the toxic culture that OCallinan delivered and OSullivan sustained.

I reckon that that the next Commissioner has a serious reform job on their hands but it is important that they know how to separate the wheat from the chaff rather than just jumping in with a carte blanche clear out.

Seth Brundle

Muahahaha wrote: »

I would agree with this. In fact the 61 million figure mentioned earlier by blanch152 as a reason not to do it appears to me to be a very good reason to do it. We have almost 5 million citizens and it is 61 million, I dont know about others but I would gladly pay an extra 12 euro in taxes to see the Gardai reformed properly once and for all.

The amount payable by each individual taxpayer would not be 61m/5m because most citizens aren't taxpayers.