Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Water John

Business and correct practice would be to write a contempraenous note, straight after the phone call. would be obvious with such a delicate matter.
Just ask Jim Comey.

Odhinn

Water John wrote: »

Business and correct practice would be to write a contempraenous note, straight after the phone call. would be obvious with such a delicate matter.
Just ask Jim Comey.

The Secretary General of the Department of Justice after having a 14 minute conversation in the midst of a tribunal with the head of an gardai siochanna finding nothing worthy of commending to paper strikes me as utterly incredible.

Water John

Well one way of covering your ass, is to note it. The other, handier, and leaving no trace is to 'forget' the contents.
Sure, the Minister forgot too. Must be in the water.

Odhinn

The DOJ strikes again - starving the ombudsman of resources.

The Chairperson of the Garda Siochána Ombudsman Commission has said they have not been sufficiently resourced by Government to deal with protected disclosures made within the force.

Ms Justice Ring said GSOC had "failed" people who came to it with protected disclosures due to a shortfall in staffing and resources. She also said it was now time for GSOC to be independent and separate in all respects from the Department of Justice.

According to the previously unpublished report seen by the This Week programme, GSOC wrote to the Department in November 2016, seeking additional staff to establish a new dedicated Protected Disclosures Unit.

In that report, GSOC said they needed 12 extra staff, which included eight extra investigators, as well as a senior investigating officer (SIO) and a head of unit at Principal Officer grade. GSOC said in the memo that if they were not provided with the required resources, it would undermine confidence in the protected disclosures process and in GSOC.

However, only five extra staff were appointed and of them, just four were investigators. No extra senior or analytical staff or additional resources were provided.

RTÉ understands that at present the Protected Disclosures Unit (PDU) is operating on a part-time basis only, and with just three staff, none of whom are dedicated exclusively to working on protected disclosures from within the force.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0114/933224-gsoc-protected-disclosures/

James Brown

Odhinn wrote: »

The DOJ strikes again - starving the ombudsman of resources.






https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0114/933224-gsoc-protected-disclosures/

The idea that the DoJ is essentially acting detached from the Justice Minister(s) isn't believable, regardless of how incompetent any of the ministers may be.

Odhinn

More on the Mullingar meeting, and the bizarre false rape claim - its all fairly hard to see human error in, given the amount thats alleged to have happened.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/01/12/maurice-mccabe-and-the-chief-state-solicitors-letter/

James Brown

Odhinn wrote: »

More on the Mullingar meeting, and the bizarre false rape claim - its all fairly hard to see human error in, given the amount thats alleged to have happened.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/01/12/maurice-mccabe-and-the-chief-state-solicitors-letter/

It's most likely this will all fade away into recommendations that will likely never be followed up on. Such is the level of quality we are use to.
In the least I would like to see some upgrading of how the DoJ, minister if accepted as a part of the DoJ :rolleyes: and Garda do business, if we are to see no accountability or even wrist slapping.

tayto lover

Odhinn wrote: »

The Secretary General of the Department of Justice after having a 14 minute conversation in the midst of a tribunal with the head of an gardai siochanna finding nothing worthy of commending to paper strikes me as utterly incredible.

It was discussed this morning on the Pat Kenny show on Newstalk.
The call lasted 14 minutes but it is not clear how long or even if they talked as the log does not show if it went from one answering machine to another or if it was answered at all. It was not a clear cut "fourteen minute conversation" as you suggest. There might actually have been no conversation as the recipient may not have been at his/her desk and maybe not reached at all.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

It was discussed this morning on the Pat Kenny show on Newstalk.
The call lasted 14 minutes but it is not clear how long or even if they talked as the log does not show if it went from one answering machine to another or if it was answered at all. It was not a clear cut "fourteen minute conversation" as you suggest. There might actually have been no conversation as the recipient may not have been at his/her desk and maybe not reached at all.

It seems the suspension of disbelief always plays a strong part in Ireland when it comes to the accountability of state representatives.
Maybe they were just telling each other jokes.

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It seems the suspension of disbelief always plays a strong part in Ireland when it comes to the accountability of state representatives.
Maybe they were just telling each other jokes.

No. It was a serious discussion.
Maybe not to your liking though.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

No. It was a serious discussion.
Maybe not to your liking though.

To my liking would be something believable.
You might be right or course. In the face of no proof any fairytale can be sold. We'll likely never know. Maybe they discussed a contract paid with tax payer money, and that would explain no paper record? We do know they spend our money in conversational deals not worthy of a post-it, but yeah, your analysis could be likely. And the answer machine tripe. Talk about reaching.

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

To my liking would be something believable.
You might be right or course. In the face of no proof any fairytale can be sold. We'll likely never know. Maybe they discussed a contract paid with tax payer money, and that would explain no paper record? We do know they spend our money in conversational deals not worthy of a post-it, but yeah, your analysis could be likely. And the answer machine tripe. Talk about reaching.

It's not my answer at all, It was discussed by Pat Kenny and Mick Clifford this morning. There's no proof they talked at all except to say that a call was made from one to the other.
I'd couldn't care less tbh.

emo72

Ask these high level conversations taking place and no-one knows anything about them? How do they keep a straight face?

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

It's not my answer at all, It was discussed by Pat Kenny and Mick Clifford this morning. There's no proof they talked at all except to say that a call was made from one to the other.
I'd couldn't care less tbh.

I'm just saying the answer machine portion is reaching.
Maybe the power went out and the call was made but the other phone was dead, unaware of the call. We could go on. When you call about your internet the call is recorded ffs.
In light of people making national deals with tax payer money with as much reverence as a spit on the palm hand shake outside the village bookies, the false claims against McCabe, the evidence going missing, one Justice minister forgetting, another regretting not giving it the attention, the breath tests and on and on, forgive me for not buying any of the apologist craic. Everyone could be on the level just really terrible at their job. I'll accept that to an extent but it's beyond silly at this point.

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I'm just saying the answer machine portion is reaching.
Maybe the power went out and the call was made but the other phone was dead, unaware of the call. We could go on. When you call about your internet the call is recorded ffs.
In light of people making national deals with tax payer money with as much reverence as a spit on the palm hand shake outside the village bookies, the false claims against McCabe, the evidence going missing, one Justice minister forgetting, another regretting not giving it the attention, the breath tests and on and on, forgive me for not buying any of the apologist craic. Everyone could be on the level just really terrible at their job. I'll accept that to an extent but it's beyond silly at this point.

Well i'm sure Mick Clifford would have sussed it out if he could.

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

,..............
In light of people making national deals with tax payer money with as much reverence as a spit on the palm hand shake outside the village bookies, the false claims against McCabe, the evidence going missing, one Justice minister forgetting, another regretting not giving it the attention, the breath tests and on and on, forgive me for not buying any of the apologist craic. Everyone could be on the level just really terrible at their job. I'll accept that to an extent but it's beyond silly at this point.

There's only so many mistakes that can go in a certain direction -

"Tribunal barrister Pat Marrinan SC said there had been a “total failure” of systems in Tusla, and “every error that is made is to the detriment of Sgt McCabe. There isn’t an error in his favour”."
http://www.thejournal.ie/charleton-tribunal-tusla-3489417-Jul2017/

........

Water John

When the options all go one way, similar to banks overcharging, it is fair to come to some conclusions.

djPSB

Cocaine scandal the latest story, member of the force supplying.

Unfortunately, with pay being so poor and morale getting lower, these types of stories will only become more common.

James Brown

The trouble is outdated perception. Garda, Doctors, Judges all beyond reproach. We know better, as they are people like anyone else, but we still treat them like any idea or claim of wrong doing is unlikely. The Garda are a basket case of an organisation, based on the facts we know. Varadkar thinks similarly of the DoJ. What's being done? Not much. Varadkar is a great man for pointing out things that need fixing and moving on to the next.

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The trouble is outdated perception. Garda, Doctors, Judges all beyond reproach. We know better, as they are people like anyone else, but we still treat them like any idea or claim of wrong doing is unlikely. The Garda are a basket case of an organisation, based on the facts we know. Varadkar thinks similarly of the DoJ. What's being done? Not much. Varadkar is a great man for pointing out things that need fixing and moving on to the next.

Taking the word of a senior garda as some sort of sacred pronouncement was always asking for trouble. The problem is never the 9 honourable men in the room, but the one bad egg in the corner who'll exploit and abuse the system to the detriment of all concerned.

The DOJ has notions of a holy mission with regards to the "security of the state", which of course means "letting the gardai get on with it" (turning a blind eye to excesses). Precisely how you correct that is a good question, but removing a lot of intelligence gathering and so on from the gardai and doj would be a start.

James Brown

Maybe leave the policing to the police and have a state body, such as the DoJ, administrators who are supposedly answerable to ministers, looking after any contracts, business deals etc? Putting a Garda in charge of contracts isn't working out judging by the no paper trail. Teenagers would keep better records. That's of course giving the benefit of the doubt that it's simply poor business sense.

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Maybe leave the policing to the police and have a state body, such as the DoJ, administrators who are supposedly answerable to ministers, looking after any contracts, business deals etc?

Or have accountable Gardai do it, mad as the idea might seem. Or accountable civillians within the force.

On another note, nobody covered themselves in glory with this, and the delay is rather shameful.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/baby-john-deserves-the-truth-garda-in-public-appeal-as-apology-issued-to-joanne-hayes-over-kerry-babies-investigation-36494480.html

Water John

How about the Detective who, over the years, felt free to espouse the one mother, two fathers theory. A million to one shot and he was betting on it.
Might want to too, considering the similar yet all wrong confessions.

when you look at the DOE, where there was 13 meetings about IW with less than half being any way minuted, I don't have very high hopes of any Dept.
Really would not wash in a Company, Public or Private.

Odhinn

Water John wrote: »

How about the Detective who, over the years, felt free to espouse the one mother, two fathers theory. A million to one shot and he was betting on it.
Might want to too, considering the similar yet all wrong confessions.
.

Essentially they went in with their minds made up. The story as they imagined it was bet and scared into the family. The inquiry was a determined effort to hang them again, despite it purportedly being to investigate the Gardai, which is the 'nothing can undermine the gardai, security of the state' mentality at work, as ever.

jobbridge4life

Water John wrote: »

How about the Detective who, over the years, felt free to espouse the one mother, two fathers theory. A million to one shot and he was betting on it.
Might want to too, considering the similar yet all wrong confessions.

when you look at the DOE, where there was 13 meetings about IW with less than half being any way minuted, I don't have very high hopes of any Dept.
Really would not wash in a Company, Public or Private.

Really? Because we've never seen private companies that went to the wall and suddenly reams of information were unavailable or forgotten. We haven't seen banks plunge the entire country into the abyss and yet inexplicably no one is responsible.

Odhinn

Back to GSOC funding, and Mr Flanagan really inspires confidence with his statement in the dail.

The Minister for Justice has said that he is "very keen to ensure" that the issues surrounding the funding of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, as reported by RTÉ's This Week programme last Sunday, are resolved.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0116/933777-gsoc-gardai/

Certainly that's me silenced.

emo72

at this stage the guards should be disbanded. renamed. new management from abroad. how can anyone have any trust in that dysfunctional unit. of course theres loads of good people in it. but its rotting from the brain outwards.

Odhinn

emo72 wrote: »

at this stage the guards should be disbanded. renamed. new management from abroad. how can anyone have any trust in that dysfunctional unit. of course theres loads of good people in it. but its rotting from the brain outwards.

I think I'd prefer foriegn civillian managment, or civillian management from within the state.

emo72

Odhinn wrote: »

I think I'd prefer foriegn civillian managment, or civillian management from within the state.

id even agree with that. still think its hard to find anyone. who does the appointing? everyone is connected. political appontments? id take me chances from abroad.

Captain Obvious

djPSB wrote: »

Cocaine scandal the latest story, member of the force supplying.

Unfortunately, with pay being so poor and morale getting lower, these types of stories will only become more common.

That's just nonsense. Nothing to do with low pay or morale. This was just two Gardaí breaking the law who were brought to task by their own colleagues.