Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

James Brown

Maybe a solid contracted foreigner to be at the helm? It's the cronyism and paperless deals we need avoid. There might be more of an urge to hold anyone failing at the post to account.

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Maybe a solid contracted foreigner to be at the helm? It's the cronyism and paperless deals we need avoid. There might be more of an urge to hold anyone failing at the post to account.

It's to get somebody in who is not of the garda culture, or the deferential mindset of civillians often involved with them.

James Brown

Odhinn wrote: »

It's to get somebody in who is not of the garda culture, or the deferential mindset of civillians often involved with them.

I doubt such a person exists in Ireland unless it's a real outsider of a person, but then would they be skilled enough?

Mr.Micro

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I doubt such a person exists in Ireland unless it's a real outsider of a person, but then would they be skilled enough?

Any person appointed to the job would need his or her own trusted team. A nightmare for anyone, an Eliot Ness job. It might be easier to start over with a new police force and intense scrutiny of all candidates.

Seth Brundle

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It might be easier to start over with a new police force and intense scrutiny of all candidates.

I don't think so.
After the mess that Irish Water ended up being, I don't believe that we would be able to set up a new enterprise organisation that had the responsibility for law and order.
As with Irish Water, the biggest issue was the involvement of politics.

Politicians would get involved and try to appease everyone but ultimately pleasing nobody.
The alphabet soup parties would complain about how we could have spent the money on something else.
SF would look to close off any special criminal divisions that investigate terrorism and seriosu organised crime.
FF and FG would do what they do best and make the most out of a new organisation and its new roles. Plenty of money to be made and plenty of friends to make happy!
Labour would ensure that the unions have their say in how the organisation is established.
The final cost would end up being multiples of the original budget and we'd have a tribunal to figure out what happened.
At the end of the day, we would end up with an even bigger mess!

James Brown

kbannon wrote: »

I don't think so.
After the mess that Irish Water ended up being, I don't believe that we would be able to set up a new enterprise organisation that had the responsibility for law and order.
As with Irish Water, the biggest issue was the involvement of politics.

Politicians would get involved and try to appease everyone but ultimately pleasing nobody.
The alphabet soup parties would complain about how we could have spent the money on something else.
SF would look to close off any special criminal divisions that investigate terrorism and seriosu organised crime.
FF and FG would do what they do best and make the most out of a new organisation and its new roles. Plenty of money to be made and plenty of friends to make happy!
Labour would ensure that the unions have their say in how the organisation is established.
The final cost would end up being multiples of the original budget and we'd have a tribunal to figure out what happened.
At the end of the day, we would end up with an even bigger mess!

We could easily use the same offices and infrastructure, simply different leadership with it's own account recording and accountability.
As with IW, there's no need for a quango. Although I understand some folks love any chance to form one for the money it brings.

Water John

I don't know the detail of the PSNI restructuring but it's a blueprint most of the key players here would be familiar with and is just up the road.
Is Chris Patten free?

Captain Obvious

Water John wrote: »

I don't know the detail of the PSNI restructuring but it's a blueprint most of the key players here would be familiar with and is just up the road.
Is Chris Patten free?

The issues facing the RUC were completely different as was the political structures that allowed it to be remodeled. This idea that AGS needs to be completely remade is just nonsense. There's neither a need for it nor the resources for it.

Seth Brundle

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We could easily use the same offices and infrastructure, simply different leadership with it's own account recording and accountability.
As with IW, there's no need for a quango. Although I understand some folks love any chance to form one for the money it brings.

The same offices could be used.
Infrastructure? Don't think so. Any new management should be demanding basic stuff that works: communications equipment, IT equipment (PULSE), shortage of transport.
We also need to ensure that we have transparency to relevant organisations (which will also require better communications) e.g. to GSOC (which maybe also needs to be overhauled).

But I don't think we need to re-invent the organisation as I think that will be going too far and as I said before, political meddling will ensure that it ends up damaged.


Any new policing system here needs to be whole - any half hearted attempts at a reform simply will not work. Any cutting corners will not work.
Any new commissioner who agrees to shortcomings should not be given the job!

James Brown

We need competent accountable business smart people looking after every tax payer spend made by the organisation. We need unbias/non-crony authority figures.

By 'business smart' I mean anyone who can keep a journal or knows what book keeping is.

The Garda have shown that in it's present form they cannot be depended upon for any of the above. They aren't even held to account for failing in matters regarding upholding the law, (penalty points/breath tests).

Mr.Micro

kbannon wrote: »

The same offices could be used.
Infrastructure? Don't think so. Any new management should be demanding basic stuff that works: communications equipment, IT equipment (PULSE), shortage of transport.
We also need to ensure that we have transparency to relevant organisations (which will also require better communications) e.g. to GSOC (which maybe also needs to be overhauled).

But I don't think we need to re-invent the organisation as I think that will be going too far and as I said before, political meddling will ensure that it ends up damaged.


Any new policing system here needs to be whole - any half hearted attempts at a reform simply will not work. Any cutting corners will not work.
Any new commissioner who agrees to shortcomings should not be given the job!

So how do you get rid of the corrupt Garda and the corrupt practices,culture effectively root out the bad apples? Political interference will always occur in Ireland no matter what. We need a proper police service law abiding and accountable.

Water John

'The issues facing the RUC were completely different as was the political structures that allowed it to be remodeled. This idea that AGS needs to be completely remade is just nonsense. There's neither a need for it nor the resources for it.' Quote.
Captain Obvious, you forgot to add, IMHO, to the above statement.

Captain Obvious

Water John wrote: »

Captain Obvious, you forgot to add, IMHO, to the above statement.

No I didn't.

Water John

SNIP

I'm just older than Joanne Hayes and remember well how she was vilified, not by the public but the guards involved. and that's 34 years ago.
Michael Martin is very right in pointing out that it has lessons for today.

Captain Obvious

Water John wrote: »

I'm just older than Joanne Hayes and remember well how she was vilified, not by the public but the guards involved. and that's 34 years ago.

Good for you.

Water John wrote: »

Michael Martin is very right in pointing out that it has lessons for today.

Indeed, we should all learn from the past.

How many times have you used IMHO in this thread by the way? How many others have you told to put it in their post? Or is it just required for persons who differ in opinions from you?

The RUC had different issues. Their main one was sectarian. It's not one that could have been fixed with reform.

The political landscape was different. The reform was supported politically and financially by the Irish and UK governments and the Assembly.

The idea is nonsense. There is no need for it. The idea is supported by nothing. If someone was asked to put out a case for it they'd probably try use the word culture in every sentence of their argument. But the reality is culture can be changed with the right leadership and support. We see it all the time on a much wider scale.

There is not the resources for it. Have you even one clue of how it would be done on a practical level? There is not the money, the physical structures, the knowledge or the political competence to completely disband and reform the police force.

Water John

My Joanne Hayes observation, is not about me and don't deflect from the point I made. Address it if you want to.

Considering the cost of those Tribunals alone since 1984, which our police force at the epicentre. I think it a case of what we, cannot afford not to do. I'm only looking for options for, real reform. Window dressing has been performed a number of times. I for one, am fed up of it.
I agree its the culture needs changing and that is the most difficult change to achieve. Any positive suggestions to achieve that, I will support.

Captain Obvious

Water John wrote: »

My Joanne Hayes observation, is not about me and don't deflect from the point I made. Address it if you want to.

You didn't make a point. How many Gardaí have 34 years service? How many reforms in training and recruitment have happened since then? What relevance do you think a 34 year old case has to the state of AGS today.

Water John wrote: »

Considering the cost of those Tribunals alone since 1984, which our police force at the epicentre.

What is that cost?

Water John wrote: »

I think it a case of what we, cannot afford not to do. I'm only looking for options for, real reform. Window dressing has been performed a number of times. I for one, am fed up of it.

Which reforms in particular do you consider "window dressing"?

Water John wrote: »

I agree its the culture needs changing and that is the most difficult change to achieve. Any positive suggestions to achieve that, I will support.

It's not difficult to achieve. It just requires a continuous pressure and clear direction, something that successive justice ministers have been unwilling or unable to provide when it comes to some aspects of law enforcement.

KaneToad

djPSB wrote: »

Unfortunately, with pay being so poor and morale getting lower, these types of stories will only become more common.

The guardai have many problems. Poor pay is definitely not one of them.

Water John

Culture within an organisation is the most difficult change of all.
The incumbent MOJ at any one time must support it but is not the most important part of the puzzle.
One has to look at real team leadership skills. Names that come to mind are people like Jim Gavin, Joe Schmith.
There key, is they have leaders, in the field. Many leaders under them who take ownership of the overall plan and bring all the other troops with them, on a clear journey. These are not leaders you see, shouting on the sidelines. They invest their trust in their people.
Above all, those seniors are not a clique.

tayto lover

Water John wrote: »

Culture within an organisation is the most difficult change of all.
The incumbent MOJ at any one time must support it but is not the most important part of the puzzle.
One has to look at real team leadership skills. Names that come to mind are people like Jim Gavin, Joe Schmith.
There key, is they have leaders, in the field. Many leaders under them who take ownership of the overall plan and bring all the other troops with them, on a clear journey. These are not leaders you see, shouting on the sidelines. They invest their trust in their people.
Above all, those seniors are not a clique.

Very amusing. That was a good laugh. But there's a big difference in sport and an organisation with 10 K workers of different levels.

mattser

tayto lover wrote: »

Very amusing. That was a good laugh. But there's a big difference in sport and an organisation with 10 K workers of different levels.

And as for " it wouldn't happen in a private business ", as of this morning 13,700 mortgage holders scourged by the tracker scandal.

Makes this thread pale into insignificance.

Odhinn

"Sgt McCabe had alleged Assistant Commissioner Derek Byrne had failed to uncover and report serious derelictions of duty, falsification of Garda records and serious incidents not being investigated.

However, all of the allegations against Mr Byrne were withdrawn by Sgt McCabe at the commission.


“It all fell away and he withdrew the allegations,” said Ms Ryan.
“It all crumbled and fell away as there was no evidence to support them.”

She said the allegations Sgt McCabe had made left some senior officers having difficulty sleeping at night.
“They were under enormous stress and I would hear how the stress affected them and their wives and children,” she said.

Ms Ryan said she would have expected someone would have needed proof to support allegations that had such an impact on individuals and their families.

The tribunal heard that an allegation of corruption made by Sgt McCabe against former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan, which the whistleblower did not withdraw, were rejected by the commission.

The allegation against Callinan related to the promotion of another officer against whom Sgt McCabe had made serious allegations.

Michael McDowell SC, for Sgt McCabe, said that he could make similar statements about sleepless nights on behalf of his client.

He said that the O'Higgins Commission had unreservedly accepted Sgt McCabe's bona fides, and called him "a man of integrity".

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/judge-says-noirin-osullivan-did-not-use-false-sex-abuse-claim-against-maurice-mccabe-36503449.html

It's when you read things like the above, you realise the days of the kerry baby tribunal are still going.

Captain Obvious

In what way?

McMurphy

mattser wrote: »

And as for " it wouldn't happen in a private business ", as of this morning 13,700 mortgage holders scourged by the tracker scandal.

Makes this thread pale into insignificance.

Are we comparing incompetent and or corruption allegations within the Garda to the greed and unscrupulous dealings from within certain banks and financial institutions?

Just checking because I was under the impression that AGS were the states police force - ie the people's police force with a motto to protect and serve communities.

Just looking on the website, couple of stand out points include

• the detection and prevention of crime;
• ensuring our nation’s security;
• reducing the incidence of fatal and serious injuries on our roads and improving road safety;
• working with communities to prevent anti-social behaviour;
• promoting an inter-agency approach to problem solving and improving the overall quality of life.

A bank, so far as I understand is to make as much of a return/profits for itself and it's shareholders.

The tracker scandal - while being disgusting is hardly surprising.

Some of the guards antics were.

James Brown

What's odd is the private market is held up as what LA's should be replaced with for many tasks. I suppose it depends on what side folks are pushing at the time. 'Private business looks after private business shocker'.

Funnily enough, when privatised things go awry the minister can say 'our hands are tied', and when something goes wrong in the public realm they either weren't aware or forgot. It's a win win really.

It all goes back to accountability. We need some, badly.

Mr.Micro

Captain Obvious wrote: »

The issues facing the RUC were completely different as was the political structures that allowed it to be remodeled. This idea that AGS needs to be completely remade is just nonsense. There's neither a need for it nor the resources for it.

AGS needs to be restructured at the very least. More civilians, much more. The civilians need to be the management and report to the Government. It's naive to think AGS is going improve on its own, laughable even. It would not know where to start.

Odhinn

Mr.Micro wrote: »

AGS needs to be restructured at the very least. More civilians, much more. The civilians need to be the management and report to the Government. It's naive to think AGS is going improve on its own, laughable even. It would not know where to start.

There has to be, as far as is practical, transparent and public civillian oversight and accountability. It's often pointed out that most gardai are honest, decent and do their best, but this is completely undermined by their failure to deal with those amongst them who aren't.

Water John

I did not want to name him. yesterday, but Gerry O'Carroll of the Murder Squad, has stuck up his head again and basically still maintains, Joanne Hayes had twins.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0118/934229-kerry-babies/

Good grief.

Odhinn

Water John wrote: »

I did not want to name him. yesterday, but Gerry O'Carroll of the Murder Squad, has stuck up his head again and basically still maintains, Joanne Hayes had twins.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0118/934229-kerry-babies/

Good grief.

This is what comes of allowing a section of society have their opinion often taken as fact.

Seth Brundle

Water John wrote: »

I did not want to name him. yesterday, but Gerry O'Carroll of the Murder Squad, has stuck up his head again and basically still maintains, Joanne Hayes had twins.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0118/934229-kerry-babies/

Good grief.

Maybe if he or his colleagues got up off their useless arses and followed up on Joanne Hayes claims about her baby the cock up wouldn't have happened.
I wonder if he would care to explain how Joanne Hayes' family gave confessions to a crime they didn't commit.