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Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Again I ask, what has this case got to do with the current issues in AGS?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,612 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Because for many, the culture has not changed.
    Know a case, about 10 years ago, where a widow in her 70s was rung by a sergeant telling her, her son would get jail. The sergeant had the man in the station, accusing him of something he had not done. The sergeant was ringing the mother to pressurise the son to confess.
    There are bad apples still in the barrel. Any large org will have some. The problem is, with the correct culture, they wouldn't dare raise, their daft notions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Water John wrote: »
    Because for many, the culture has not changed.
    Know a case, about 10 years ago, where a widow in her 70s was rung by a sergeant telling her, her son would get jail. The sergeant had the man in the station, accusing him of something he had not done. The sergeant was ringing the mother to pressurise the son to confess.
    There are bad apples still in the barrel. Any large org will have some. The problem is, with the correct culture, they wouldn't dare raise, their daft notions.

    There's that word again, culture. It's pretty vague. These days interviews are videotaped and solicitors can be present. There may still be bad apples in the barrel and they may be in a position to try and spread their rot but it doesn't matter. Technological and procedural changes have addressed many issues and prevented the "culture" from further propagating.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,083 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Getting back on topic:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/judge-says-noirin-osullivan-did-not-use-false-sex-abuse-claim-against-maurice-mccabe-36503449.html

    "Nóirín O'Sullivan did not use false allegations of sexual abuse to discredit Sgt Maurice McCabe at the O'Higgins Commission, Mr Justice Peter Charleton has said.

    The chairman of the Disclosures Tribunal said he believed all parties could agree on this based on evidence it has heard so far."

    Well, well, well, after all the accusations, innuendo and sniping from the sidelines, the judge makes this finding. Do some posters on here need to reflect on this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,131 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Getting back on topic:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/judge-says-noirin-osullivan-did-not-use-false-sex-abuse-claim-against-maurice-mccabe-36503449.html

    "Nóirín O'Sullivan did not use false allegations of sexual abuse to discredit Sgt Maurice McCabe at the O'Higgins Commission, Mr Justice Peter Charleton has said.

    The chairman of the Disclosures Tribunal said he believed all parties could agree on this based on evidence it has heard so far."

    Well, well, well, after all the accusations, innuendo and sniping from the sidelines, the judge makes this finding. Do some posters on here need to reflect on this?

    No. The accusation was bandied about to blacken his name generally.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    There's that word again, culture. It's pretty vague. These days interviews are videotaped and solicitors can be present. There may still be bad apples in the barrel and they may be in a position to try and spread their rot but it doesn't matter. Technological and procedural changes have addressed many issues and prevented the "culture" from further propagating.

    Since when, can you give a date for such a sudden change?
    In the district court, for most minor infractions, the evidence of the garda is taken above the alleged perpetrator unless there are witnesses.
    You only need to look back at the water protestors being charged with abduction to see how garda and DPP can view something as opposed to reality. But for video evidence making liars of gardai who knows how that would have turned out.
    I'm no fan of anyone involved in that incident BTW, but I'd expect our gardai and public prosecution services to at least tell the truth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Edward M wrote: »
    Since when, can you give a date for such a sudden change?

    I didn't say sudden and it didn't happen on a single date. There have been two major overhauls in the way Gardaí are thought in Templemore. There have been three additional monitoring bodies set up. There have been changes in the promotion system. There has been quite a number of case law decisions which have changed policy and their have been policy changes brought about by Tribunals and scandals. The advent of camera phones has also changed things. There have been changes in the communications systems which allow for Gardaí to be tracked and radio traffic to be monitored.

    I could probably go on for a while but I think it's fairly obvious to anyone who even takes a cursory look into it that there has been massive changes in many aspects of AGS over the years. And even if you don't believe the culture of the Gardaí themselves have changed, they have been forced to live under a new culture brought about by change.
    Edward M wrote: »
    In the district court, for most minor infractions, the evidence of the garda is taken above the alleged perpetrator unless there are witnesses.

    No, not always. I've seen judges throw out positive ID's from Gardaí based on there being no witnesses to back them up. It's even more difficult in the higher courts were juries are even harder to convince without solid forensic or cctv evidence.
    Edward M wrote: »
    You only need to look back at the water protestors being charged with abduction to see how garda and DPP can view something as opposed to reality. But for video evidence making liars of gardai who knows how that would have turned out.
    I'm no fan of anyone involved in that incident BTW, but I'd expect our gardai and public prosecution services to at least tell the truth.

    There was no evidence anyone lied in that. All it showed was that Gardaí can be wrong, just like any other witness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    There's that word again, culture. It's pretty vague.

    On a fundamental level, many of the senior members of AGS seem to truly believe that the force should be subject to no rules and should be the highest authority in the state. Furthermore, many seem to believe that if they get results, the means simply don't matter.

    That's what's meant by 'culture'. It's a fairly simple concept I would have thought. There's a pervasive ideology of "we answer to nobody, we do whatever we like, we are the law" among the people actually in charge of running the organisation. Alongside this is a secondary but similarly pervasive "anything for a quiet life" culture, which permeates not only AGS but most aspects of Irish government and administration.

    When the people in charge prance around with an attitude like this, it is absolutely inevitable that it's going to seep through the rest of the organisation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,131 ✭✭✭Odhinn



    There was no evidence anyone lied in that. All it showed was that Gardaí can be wrong, just like any other witness.

    You're confusing innocent error with an institutional inability to distinguish opinion from fact, and a willingness to make things join up when it suits. A re-read of the morris tribunal wouldn't be a bad idea. The fact that "rogue" gardai might be few in number is irrelevant in the face of their colleagues lack of willingness to root them out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 94 ✭✭Rebelside


    As a matter of interest, if someone from Joe Public had planted explosives to stitch up somebody do you think that a great effort would be put into finding the person & jailing them?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,131 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Rebelside wrote: »
    As a matter of interest, if someone from Joe Public had planted explosives to stitch up somebody do you think that a great effort would be put into finding the person & jailing them?

    Of course there would, as there's far less chance of damaging various institutions and so on. There's an unwillingness to tackle the Gardai, however. Everybody gets big on recommendations for reform, but fail to follow up.

    This is from 2006, concerns whistelblowers and "rogue" gardai, promotions, the 'word' of gardai and so on
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/blackest-day-for-the-garda-26370338.html

    yet some years later we're still at the stage where a garda commissioner can turn up in a car park and refer to an innocent man as a 'kiddy fiddler' to a politician on a body investigating that mans claims.

    It begs the question - if he could do that to an innocent member of his own force for breaking ranks, what did he do as a superintendent, a chief superintendent, a sergeant, an ordinary garda, and to whom? And what hope would a member of the public have? What hope would somebody who had been involved in any form of criminality have? What kind of persons career would prosper under his patronage? It's a scenario that the state doesn't want to tackle, and by doing so effectively aids wrongdoing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    On a fundamental level, many of the senior members of AGS seem to truly believe that the force should be subject to no rules and should be the highest authority in the state. Furthermore, many seem to believe that if they get results, the means simply don't matter.

    That's what's meant by 'culture'. It's a fairly simple concept I would have thought. There's a pervasive ideology of "we answer to nobody, we do whatever we like, we are the law" among the people actually in charge of running the organisation. Alongside this is a secondary but similarly pervasive "anything for a quiet life" culture, which permeates not only AGS but most aspects of Irish government and administration.

    When the people in charge prance around with an attitude like this, it is absolutely inevitable that it's going to seep through the rest of the organisation.

    I appreciate the effort to describe it. You call it simple yet you are the only one who has even made an effort to put into words what you think this bad culture is. There are posters here looking to disband the Gardaí for a culture they say exists yet can't even articulate into words.

    How do you think disbanding and reforming the Gardaí would fix this?
    Odhinn wrote: »
    You're confusing innocent error with an institutional inability to distinguish opinion from fact, and a willingness to make things join up when it suits.

    I'm not confusing anything, I just have a different opinion to you.
    Odhinn wrote: »
    A re-read of the morris tribunal wouldn't be a bad idea. The fact that "rogue" gardai might be few in number is irrelevant in the face of their colleagues lack of willingness to root them out.

    It's very relevant. Rogue Gardai surely by their definition go against the general culture of the rest of the Gardaí. Even the Garda inspectorate has said that the structures within the organisation are effecting the culture negatively and that Gardaí generally have a strong sense of duty.

    So i ask you, what can a disbandment achieve that reform cannot? And how would it achieve that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,131 ✭✭✭Odhinn




    It's very relevant. Rogue Gardai surely by their definition go against the general culture of the rest of the Gardaí. Even the Garda inspectorate has said that the structures within the organisation are effecting the culture negatively and that Gardaí generally have a strong sense of duty.

    So i ask you, what can a disbandment achieve that reform cannot? And how would it achieve that?

    I wouldn't be for disbandment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,612 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    If you want a good understanding of institutional culture, then I suggest reading, Charles Handy. Understanding Organisations and Inside Organisations being the most relevant. Hardpatrick made a good stab at it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,131 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Bizarre series of hoop jumps here -
    Former Garda Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan has said she was acting on legal advice when she decided whistleblower Maurice McCabe’s credibility and motivation should be challenged at the O’Higgins Commission.

    But she has insisted she never considered Sgt McCabe to be “malicious” and that her instructions were aimed at testing the veracity of his allegations.

    I never ever instructed counsel to impugn Sgt McCabe’s integrity,” she said.

    Questioning credibility and motivation of mccabe was impugning his integrity - it could not do otherwise. Trying to wriggle out of that with a petty conceit that the two differed is a nonsense.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/i-acted-on-legal-advice-when-i-challenged-mccabes-credibility-osullivan-tells-disclosures-tribunal-36517095.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,612 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Well, McDowell will be talking to her tomorrow. That should be interesting.
    I presume he will dissect her, Jesuitical hairsplitting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Water John wrote: »
    Well, McDowell will be talking to her tomorrow. That should be interesting.
    I presume he will dissect her, Jesuitical hairsplitting.

    She will be suffering from memory loss, or multiple cases of I don't recall.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,612 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    As it reads at present, it's the ultimate example of speaking out of both sides of your mouth, at the same time.
    She cannot disavow what her legal team did, in her name. She and she alone, has ownership of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,738 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    If McDowell gets to cross examine smiley Noreen today it could get interesting


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,303 ✭✭✭emo72


    How is she getting on?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,688 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    emo72 wrote: »
    How is she getting on?

    Well she seems to have a problem with her memory. She is struggling to remember vital information.

    AKA as the Neary Defence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,131 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    If McDowell gets to cross examine smiley Noreen today it could get interesting
    emo72 wrote: »
    How is she getting on?

    She's not smiling on the inside, I think we can say that much.

    The thing about michael mc dowell I like, is that he seems to have at some staged experienced a "road to damascus" moment as regards Mr Callinan and his associates. This may of course have been due to somebody putting two bulls in one field
    Former Garda commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan has been accused of telling “a dark lie” to the Charleton tribunal over the impact of a whistleblower’s allegations of corruption.
    Counsel for Sgt McCabe, Michael McDowell SC, asked Ms O’Sullivan who she was referring to when she said some of his client’s unsupported allegations had caused gardaí to leave the force.

    She said she was referring to her predecessor in the role, former comissioner Martin Callinan, who stepped down in March 2014.

    Counsel responded that this was a “dark lie,” adding that “he did not retire because of allegations made against him by Sgt McCabe”.


    Earlier, Ms O’Sullivan said she has no memory of seeing false accusations that Sgt McCabe had committed a serious sexual assault.

    The tribunal has previously heard evidence that an account of allegations relating to “Ms Y” were brought to the attention of the commissioner in 2014.

    Mr McDowell asked the former commissioner if she read a referral from Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, which falsely stated he was accused of digitally raping a child.

    Ms O’Sullivan said she does not dispute that she had sight of the referral in 2014, but said she does not recall reading it.

    She agreed with counsel she never received any documents to correct the false allegation.

    Not remembering that is highly, highly unlikely. He was well known internally in Garda HQ, and as the assistant commissioner it's not remotely feasible - outside of head injury - that she didn't know who he was. Putting any accusation beside his name would make it doubly memorable - having perhaps the ultimate discrediting charge of child molestation there and not mentally registering it as hugely significant beggars belief entirely.

    It would be interesting if they could probe her over what her communications were with callinan on the subject. The evasions might be more telling than anything else.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/charleton-tribunal-live-n%C3%B3ir%C3%ADn-o-sullivan-accused-of-dark-lie-1.3365568


    The independents article is based in a universe where noirin is the victim, seemingly.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/disclosures-tribunal-deliberate-leaks-were-designed-to-do-maximum-damage-to-my-reputation-osullivan-claims-36520690.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,668 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Popped into the Tribunal earlier today and managed to get a seat near the top amongst the journalists and the computer screens where you can see the emails counsel are referring to when they were cross examining OSullivan. It was pretty surreal listening to OSullivan play verbal gymnastics during her testimony. Practically every sentence she uttered had the phrase "to the best of my recollection" contained within. Journalists around me were shaking their heads. At one stage OSullivan was being questioned about her writing a draft speech for Frances Fitzgerald to repeat verbatim in the Dail. The final line of the speech was something along the lines of "I have full confidence in the Garda Commissioner", all written in an email by Noirin herself. She was asked if thought this appropriate to be telling a Minister for Justice what to say and she went waffling on in her answer about how she was just "making suggestions" despite the email speaking clearly about Fitzgerald putting it on the Dail record. You really couldnt make this up but Noirin certainly was.

    Maurice McCabe and his wife were sitting right in front of me. I really felt sorry for the guy having been put through almost a decade of this crap from the Gardai and now he has to sit there and listen to more of it day in and day out, the man and his wife must be wrecked.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,612 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Some of the interesting sequences will be reneacted on Prime Time. Should people a good feel of the reality in the Tribunal.
    This is the best summary of the key elements of the cross examination:
    http://www.thejournal.ie/disclosures-tribunal-noirin-2-3812289-Jan2018/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Odhinn wrote: »


    This part is literally unbelievable.
    Ms O’Sullivan denied she had drafted a statement for the Tiste to read.

    She said she had in fact had been drafting a statement for herself and may well have referred to herself in the third person. This is what she sent to the minister, she said.

    She also said there were facts in the draft which the Tiste could choose to rely upon or not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,612 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    She'll nearly end up answering, yes and no to the same question.
    If you or I put in that performance under Garda questioning, doubt they'd be satisfied.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,131 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    This part is literally unbelievable.

    .....when you've been allowed trample ever upward and onward, the ego grows at a massive rate. There is very much a certain deference towards the uniform that has been used by the unscrupulous to advance themselves and their agenda. It's the problem with running a place on "scouts honour" - what happens when you get a scout with no honour?
    Water John wrote:
    She'll nearly end up answering, yes and no to the same question.
    If you or I put in that performance under Garda questioning, doubt they'd be satisfied.

    Absolutely. And this isn't a trial either, unfortunately.

    In a sense we should also remember that Noirin took over when all this was underway. It's callinan who, realistically, is the main villain of the piece, having been in the big chair for four years, and an extremely senior garda beforehand. Of the two, he was her senior and mentor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,131 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    .....................

    Maurice McCabe and his wife were sitting right in front of me. I really felt sorry for the guy having been put through almost a decade of this crap from the Gardai and now he has to sit there and listen to more of it day in and day out, the man and his wife must be wrecked.

    It's a miracle he survived. What we have to ask ourselves is, if this is what happened to McCabe, what happened to the others, who surely must have existed, who had neither the good fortune or the remarkable strength of character to carry on?

    A man can fight a court case, but allegations, whispers and innuendo? By senior gardai whose word is taken as some unquestionable pronouncement of fact, not only by people on the street, but doctors, lawyers, politicans - all of society.

    You have to undergo surgery - has that surgeon heard the whispers that you are a paedophile, and will it affect him? You have to see the GP, but are having problems getting an appointment - is it just busy or has 'somebody' had a chat with him? Why is your post getting lost? Why does such and such never ask you over to the house anymore? Why does your cousin not bring the kids over anymore? Extend that to everything from work, to a pint....its an existence of suffering, paranoia, suspicion and pain. And worse than anything else is the realisation that some percentage of the time when you think its to do with whats being said about you behind your back, its true.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,612 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    You had two key phone call, I think to the DOJ. Neither side remembers the contents.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,131 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Former Garda commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan has said she fully supported Garda whistleblower Maurice McCabe both before and after the O’Higgins commission.
    On Wednesday afternoon she insisted she never instructed Garda lawyers to question Sgt McCabe’s integrity during the commission. She said she did not known why her lawyers said those were their instructions.

    The urge to be inappropriately satirical here is almost overwhelming.
    Mr McDowell asked how it was possible she and other senior gardaí and Department of Justice officials did not question if Sgt McCabe’s feeling of being under threat might be connected to his appearance as a witness at the O’Higgins commission.

    “I knew he was a witnesses at the commission but I was at a loss to understand why he felt under threat from me,” Ms O’Sullivan replied.

    Mr McDowell suggested perhaps she was being “starved of information” of what was happening at the commission. Ms O’Sullivan replied her liaison, Chief Superintendent Fergus Healy, was keeping her up to date.

    He said she thought maybe something happened to Sgt McCabe in the course of his work in Mullingar to make him feel under threat.

    False allegations of child molestation, senior gardai telling him he was barred from PULSE, the allegations of the tribunal? No, its mullingar.....


    Like all good surgeons, Mr McDowell knows how to wield his knife.
    At the end of his questioning this morning, Mr McDowell asked Ms O’Sullivan about a note from a meeting she had with her lawyers immediately before her appearance at the O’Higgins commission in November 2015.

    The note, which was made by her liaison at the commission, Chief Superintendent Fergus Healy, states the commissioner was asked if she would “consider withdrawing.”

    Mr McDowell suggested this was a reference to withdrawing the legal strategy of questioning the integrity of garda whistleblower Sgt McCabe when he made allegations of garda corruption at the commission.

    Ms O’Sullivan has previously denied giving any such instructions. She said she instructed lawyers to question Sgt McCabe’s motivation and not his integrity.

    Counsel asked her how she accounted for this note which was made immediately before her lawyers informed the commission that they had been mistaken when they indicated they were questioning Sgt McCabe’s integrity, five months earlier.

    The former commissioner said she could not have instructed that her lawyers withdraw from that strategy since she had never instructed them to follow it in the first place.

    She said she could not account for the note mentioning withdrawal, as it was Chief Supt Healy’s note. “I have no recollection of discussing withdrawal,” she said.

    Mr McDowell put it to her that this was “simply unsatisfactory.

    A full point to Mr McDowell there
    Earlier, Ms O’Sullivan denied there was a conflict of interest in having the same legal team represent both her and other gardaí accused of corruption in 2015.

    Mr McDowell put it to Ms O’Sullivan that it was improper that lawyers representing gardaí who had an “extremely hostile” attitude to Sgt McCabe also represented her interests at the O’Higgins commission.

    Mr McDowell put it to Ms O’Sullivan that sharing a legal team was a “manifest conflict of interest”. She replied that if there was a conflict her lawyers would have told her so.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/charleton-tribunal-o-sullivan-says-she-fully-supported-garda-whistleblower-1.3366749

    Yet she's said the legal strategy - which would have been greatly been influenced by the fact of a single legal team -
    I was very aware it may change Sgt McCabe’s perception of me. I had to assure supports were still continued. It was an impossible dilemma.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/disclosures-tribunal-noirin-3810447-Jan2018/


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