Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Beechwoodspark

I wonder is terry prone still advising Noreen. Her approach seems to be brazen it out at all costs. She’s still got her big pension and her new job to go back to.

Water John

An important point from yesterday too, but really only picked up on by, The Irish Examiner, is The Chairman of the Tribunal challenging O'Sullivan over claims that McCabe hurt victims of crime, other gardai, and the general public through his whistleblower allegations.

This tells you, largely, how this is being viewed by Judge Charleton and doesn't bode well for O'Sullivan.

Odhinn

Water John wrote: »

An important point from yesterday too, but really only picked up on by, The Irish Examiner, is The Chairman of the Tribunal challenging O'Sullivan over claims that McCabe hurt victims of crime, other gardai, and the general public through his whistleblower allegations.

This tells you, largely, how this is being viewed by Judge Charleton and doesn't bode well for O'Sullivan.

It has to be said that the notion that both the Judge and McDowell know precisely what went on, even if they can only prove some of it, gives me some hope for the future.

tayto lover

Did anything happen today lads? It's not even making the news headlines on RTE.

McMurphy

Her strategy seems to be "I can not recall doing/ not doing or saying anything" thereby removing any culpability.

She's a cute one.

Has been schooled well.

tayto lover

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Her strategy seems to be "I can not recall doing/ not doing or saying anything" thereby removing any culpability.

She's a cute one.

Has been schooled well.

What's her angle?
Is she saying that incompetence, ignorance, mistakes and poor management does not equal corruption or am I getting that wrong?

Odhinn

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I wonder is terry prone still advising Noreen. Her approach seems to be brazen it out at all costs. She’s still got her big pension and her new job to go back to.

The best case scenario sees a condemnation of the tactics, those who used them and a new attitude taken by government to the gardai, and- following on over a few years - other persons and issues will come forward in the new atmosphere. Consequences would then be inevitable. I can't say I'm optimistic as regards that occurring. There's far too much aversion to reputational damage within the state, and rather than come clean I'd imagine that the usual tactics of delay, deny and destroy will be rolled out.

You are quite right as regards big pension and big job. Even if the job (and why she got it in current circumstances I can't guess) falls through she can still fall back on a pension of 90K
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/retiring-commissioner-will-get-300k-lump-sum-and-90k-per-year-pension-36119401.html

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

What's her angle?
Is she saying that incompetence, ignorance, mistakes and poor management does not equal corruption or am I getting that wrong?

I'm not referring to her poor management etc, I'm referring to her memory relapses surrounding her interactions with her legal team etc.

She isn't actually admitting/denying any thing that may or may not have happened / was discussed.

She's simply saying she can't recall, wasn't aware, unable to say etc etc.

Which is probably what prompted McDowell to ask this

Mr McDowell asked her if she was being “starved of information”.

Odhinn

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Her strategy seems to be "I can not recall doing/ not doing or saying anything" thereby removing any culpability.

She's a cute one.

Has been schooled well.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

What's her angle?
Is she saying that incompetence, ignorance, mistakes and poor management does not equal corruption or am I getting that wrong?.

Her mentor was quite cunning in how he used internal garda procedure himself. "I can't remember", "I saw it, but don't remember doing so" are classic evasion techniques. The more jesuitical dodges of 'I was told but I was not informed', 'I heard but not in my official capacity' are evidently not something that will pass muster, otherwise they'd be brazen enough to try that as well. Public acrimony doesn't affect ones pension or liberty, after all.

Odhinn

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I'm not referring to her poor management etc, I'm referring to her memory relapses surrounding her interactions with her legal team etc.

She isn't actually admitting/denying any thing that may or may not have happened / was discussed.

She's simply saying she can't recall, wasn't aware, unable to say etc etc.

Yep. All the way to the end. It looks bad, will not help her with the finding of the tribunal to the extent of exoneration, but I doubt she or the man she was associated with care one hoot.

McMurphy

Odhinn wrote: »

Her mentor was quite cunning in how he used internal garda procedure himself. "I can't remember", "I saw it, but don't remember doing so" are classic evasion techniques. The more jesuitical dodges of 'I was told but I was not informed', 'I heard but not in my official capacity' are evidently not something that will pass muster, otherwise they'd be brazen enough to try that as well. Public acrimony doesn't affect ones pension or liberty, after all.

Didn't the former Justice minister give similar answers surrounding emails sent to her?

This evening, the Tanasite said: “‘I can only assume I did read the email.”

tayto lover

Odhinn wrote: »

Yep. All the way to the end. It looks bad, will not help her with the finding of the tribunal to the extent of exoneration, but I doubt she or the man she was associated with care one hoot.

So what's the point in wasting taxpayers money on this then?

Odhinn

tayto lover wrote: »

So what's the point in wasting taxpayers money on this then?

Showing "Something Is Being Done" while trying to do as little as humanly possible.

tayto lover

Odhinn wrote: »

Showing "Something Is Being Done" while trying to do as little as humanly possible.

It will be the same as every other Tribunal i.e a cash cow for the legal profession and nothing else.

Odhinn

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Didn't the former Justice minister give similar answers surrounding emails sent to her?

Aye. May not have been liasing and just went to the old standby. My suspicion is that the department hierarchy had been privately convinced by Callinan that McCabe was a 'wrong one' and that the subsequent actions of o'sullivan and fitzgerald were just continuing on with that notion - "we'll be vindicated in the long run". That may come out in the great span of time, but we may never know.

Odhinn

tayto lover wrote: »

It will be the same as every other Tribunal i.e a cash cow for the legal profession and nothing else.

Well if leads to some reform of the gardai, we might take the idea that its like chipping down a mountain bit by bit and that this is another bit. Admittedly my view will be that once again, justice has been denied the victims of martin callinan.

Odhinn

It appears from this that a submission was made on behalf of Noirin O'Sullivan which is bizarre in the extreme - that victims of crime dealt with by Sgt McCabe were "erroneously led to believe"that they were dis-served by An gardai siochana and this subjected them to further unnessecary suffering. The judge has none of it.
https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/956080712637206529

The Examiner - consistently the best reportage on the issue (I'm not from Cork nor do I work for it) carries this -

Senior officers attempted to "belittle and isolate" Garda whistleblower Maurice McCabe by circulating a memo that said his claims of corruption were unfounded, his lawyer has said. Former Garda commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan told the Disclosures Tribunal on Wednesday the memo from 2011, which followed an internal inquiry into Sgt McCabe’s allegations, might not have been "the most prudent thing to circulate".

The tribunal heard the memo was drafted by Chief Superintendent Colm Rooney and circulated by Superintendent Mick Clancy and Superintendent Noel Cunningham. It stated that after an internal inquiry, carried out by Assistant Commissioner Derek Byrne, no systemic failures or criminal conduct had been identified.

The document concluded with a request to "please inform all concerned".

It was forwarded to all Garda stations in the district where Sgt McCabe worked, and was posted throughout several of them.

Sgt McCabe’s lawyer Michael McDowell said the memo "was designed to isolate Sergeant McCabe, belittle him and belittle all the concerns which you (Mrs O’Sullivan) say were legitimate concerns".

Mrs O’Sullivan responded: "I can’t comment on the mind of Chief Superintendent Rooney when he wrote and circulated it."

Mr McDowell then asked her: "Will you agree with me, on ordinary reading, it is to belittle Sgt McCabe?"

The retired police chief replied: "Many readings can be taken from it. I am capable of reading, thank you.

"I can understand the perspective Sgt McCabe may have had of this document.

"It might not have been the most prudent thing to circulate at the time."

She added: "I have never worked in Bailieboro district (where Sgt McCabe worked) and am finding it difficult to put myself in the shoes of the person who wrote it, who perhaps had to balance the workplace he was dealing with at the time.

"I am reluctant to give commentary."
She told the tribunal that when she took up the position of acting interim commissioner - which was after the memo was circulated - she ensured that support mechanisms were put in place for Sgt McCabe.

Mrs O’Sullivan’s evidence to the tribunal concluded on Wednesday.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/garda-memo-was-attempt-belittle-and-isolate-maurice-mccabe-his-lawyer-tells-charleton-tribunal-824593.html

Truly damning stuff there in many ways, and a bit baffling why it wasn't headlines on RTE.

Water John

Odhinn, that's exactly what I was referring to. The most important point, not picked up by other media.

Meanwhile, new document turns up, this evening. amazingly after O'Sullivan's evidence is finished.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/nirn-osullivan-could-be-recalled-to-disclosures-tribunal-after-new-document-emerges-36529597.html

This looks a key briefing doc, used down the years to blacken McCabe. Who saw it?

Muahahaha

Francis Fitzgerald evidence tomorrow, itll be one former justice minister questioning another former justice minister

Water John

Worth keeping on eye on Elaine Byrne's twitter. She is fairly spot on.
https://twitter.com/ElaineByrne?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

James Brown

Muahahaha wrote: »

Francis Fitzgerald evidence tomorrow, itll be one former justice minister questioning another former justice minister

When people from the 'law and order party' accept 'Maybe I did but if I did I forgot' from ministers, who then receive 'full confidence', it's hard to see anything but Laurel and Hardy level lip service paid to accountability or genuine improvement to the system.
McCabe has give Fine Gael another opportunity to make positive historic change to the state, but I suspect they'll go the better the devil you know, business as usual route rather than improving things.

Water John

One must not forget, the position of the Ministers, other than FG, who sit at the Cabinet table. But then opening Stepaside is a more important matter.

McMurphy

Just Breaking now that Frances Fitzgerald was sent an email in 2015 that informed her (re) that an allegation of sexual assault against Maurice McCabe had been referred to the O'Higgins commission.

They're reporting that it's not entirely clear whether or not she received the mail, but the words "Noted FF" were wrote on the printed hard copy suggesting she did indeed see it.

Frances is due to give her evidence later on this afternoon.

James Brown

Going by Fitzgerald's statements, if they are to be roundly accepted as the norm by the state; we need Justice Ministers who don't merely pass by issues of national importance like strangers on the street they may or may not take note of. We need Justice Ministers with a Justice remit. A Minister who looks into ongoing justice issues, be they carried out by a commissioner or a DoJ civil servant.
Someone who has a duty to have an interest, to follow up on things.
"I may not have known, didn't look, didnt think to look" is a tried and tested political dodge we need do away with otherwise why have ministers at all?

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Going by Fitzgerald's statements, if they are to be roundly accepted as the norm by the state; we need Justice Ministers who don't merely pass by issues of national importance like strangers on the street they may or may not take note of. We need Justice Ministers with a Justice remit. A Minister who looks into ongoing justice issues, be they carried out by a commissioner or a DoJ civil servant.
Someone who has a duty to have an interest, to follow up on things.
"I may not have known, didn't look, didnt think to look" is a tried and tested political dodge we need do away with otherwise why have ministers at all?

At the same time you need a police force that is independent and free from interference from government when required. Otherwise you could end up with a mess like the FBI have at the moment. Everyone who investigates Republicans afraid of losing their jobs.

Water John

Well Chris Wray appointed Head of the FBI last August, is today standing up, in public against the President releasing inaccurate and incomplete document/memo.
Then that is a good standard to apply.
That's not what has happened here.

Sierra Oscar

Diary shows Nóirín O'Sullivan was in London on day Garda HR head says she attended meeting, tribunal hears


John Barrett's evidence over the last couple of days seems to have been a bit of a disaster.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/959427830319808513

https://twitter.com/Ocionnaith/status/959429651331461121

https://twitter.com/Ocionnaith/status/959429980294995969

This is significant considering he is one of the central witnesses who is alleging there was a smear campaign. Dave Taylor was one of the others, so it will be interesting to see what he says when he is called before the Tribunal.

Odhinn

Apply expletives where nessecary

"Last May, Kathleen O’Toole, Seattle Police Chief and formerly of the Garda Siochana Inspectorate, was appointed to lead the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland.This was to be a root and branch review in the wake of scandals on several fronts within the force.

Criticism was made at the time that Ms O’Toole had, in her previous role in Phoenix Park, helped select Noirin O’Sullivan as Garda Commissioner in 2014.
But the appointment went ahead.

Last September, Noirin O’Sullivan stood down as commissioner amid pressure over the slow rate of Garda reform and her own role in the Sgt Maurice McCabe saga. In October, Ms O’Sullivan was appointed as director of strategic partnerships for Europe with the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP). The IACP is based in Virginia, United States, and has among its executive committee…head of the Commission on Future Policing in Ireland, Kathleen O’Toole."
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/02/07/the-future-of-policing/

Explains one mystery.....

Hitman3000

Odhinn wrote:

Explains one mystery.....

Nepotism? Surely not.....

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

At the same time you need a police force that is independent and free from interference from government when required. Otherwise you could end up with a mess like the FBI have at the moment. Everyone who investigates Republicans afraid of losing their jobs.

That's what we have. We've Garda looking into Garda complaints and a possible bias at all levels, one way or the other. Coupled with ministers turning a blind eye due to disinterest or incompetence.
We need an independent body possibly headed by non-Irish; we aren't willing or capable of doing it ourselves it appears.