Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That's what we have. We've Garda looking into Garda complaints and a possible bias at all levels, one way or the other. Coupled with ministers turning a blind eye due to disinterest or incompetence.
We need an independent body possibly headed by non-Irish; we aren't willing or capable of doing it ourselves it appears.

Is that not what GSOC is?

Nettle Soup

Tough day for Sgt Maurice McCabe but at least we are starting to learn the truth.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-garda-commissioner-alleged-to-have-claimed-maurice-mccabe-sexually-abused-his-own-children-and-nieces-tribunal-hears-36671029.html

“He [Mr McGuinness] told me he met the former commissioner Martin Callinan at the Red Cow Inn and he said I wasn’t to be trusted and I sexually abused all my children and my nieces,” Sgt McCabe said.

“He started telling me he was the press officer. He said there was an orchestrated campaign to attack me. He said it was in the form of whispering, of phone calls, of texts,” said Sgt McCabe.
“He said he did it on the instructions of Martin Callinan. He said ex-commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan was aware of it all.”

“He said Martin Callinan was the main person. Martin Callinan would encourage Dave Taylor to spread the rumour about me. That I had been investigated for sexual assault, to do me down.”
Sgt McCabe said Supt Taylor told him there was a file on him in Garda Headquarters codenamed Oisín and someone was monitoring him on Pulse.
Both Mr Callinan and Ms O’Sullivan have denied Supt Taylor’s allegations.

Sgt McCabe said that while many colleagues were supportive of him, others were not.
“You certainly after isolated and alone,” he said, adding that there were often places where he wasn’t welcome.
“There are an element that would just blank you, not speak to you. The culture is there that it is very hard to speak out.”

The force is well and truly corrupt. I am not sure this Inquiry will fix that.

Captain Obvious

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Tough day for Sgt Maurice McCabe but at least we are starting to learn the truth.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-garda-commissioner-alleged-to-have-claimed-maurice-mccabe-sexually-abused-his-own-children-and-nieces-tribunal-hears-36671029.html


The force is well and truly corrupt. I am not sure this Inquiry will fix that.

The inquiry is to discover the truth. Believe it or not, many people will require more than the word of Sgt McCabe to decide the whole force should be disbanded and remade from scratch.

Nettle Soup

Captain Obvious wrote: »

The inquiry is to discover the truth. Believe it or not, many people will require more than the word of Sgt McCabe to decide the whole force should be disbanded and remade from scratch.

2 commissioners and a Minister of Justice haven't been telling the truth to date. Far from it. They always tried to bury McCabe. I don't think many of the Gardaí at the Inquiry are telling the whole truth still. It's a cover up culture similar to the Roman church.

Where would McCabe be if he hadn't taped the meeting in Mullingar with senior Gardai??

Water John

Taylor is key. If his is believable to the Inquiry, that is all the question one needs to ask.

Hitman3000

Nettle Soup wrote:

2 commissioners and a Minister of Justice haven't been telling the truth to date. Far from it. They always tried to bury McCabe. I don't think many of the Gardaí at the Inquiry are telling the whole truth still. It's a cover up culture similar to the Roman church.

McCabe is a strong individual, I'm beginning to think these guys tried to push him to suicide.

Water John

Personal consequence, I doubt was of concern to them. Defend the institution, at all costs.
He was lucky to have Lorraine, by his side.

Hitman3000

Water John wrote:

Personal consequence, I doubt was of concern to them. Defend the institution, at all costs. He was lucky to have Lorraine, by his side.

It's a pity that if what has said is true, that Callinan and O'Sullivan will not feel any consequences. Be nice to see them lose their pension along with the reputational damage.

Tell me how

Captain Obvious wrote:

The inquiry is to discover the truth. Believe it or not, many people will require more than the word of Sgt McCabe to decide the whole force should be disbanded and remade from scratch.

The evidence is there. Some just don't want to see it. And it will be the same when this is over as well unfortunately.

Water John

Well if Taylor is credible and more or less backs what McCabe and McGuinness say, that would carry as collaborating testimony.

tayto lover

Nettle Soup wrote: »

2 commissioners and a Minister of Justice haven't been telling the truth to date. Far from it. They always tried to bury McCabe. I don't think many of the Gardaí at the Inquiry are telling the whole truth still. It's a cover up culture similar to the Roman church.

Where would McCabe be if he hadn't taped the meeting in Mullingar with senior Gardai??

It doesn't seem to be endemic at all from reading today's timeline. Mc Cabe says he got great support from the Garda in Cavan.

10:37
Sgt McCabe says he got great support from the station in Bailieborough and from all the senior management in Cavan/Monaghan. He said they rang him and said "there was nothing there"

hatrickpatrick

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It's a pity that if what has said is true, that Callinan and O'Sullivan will not feel any consequences. Be nice to see them lose their pension along with the reputational damage.

This kind of sh!t should be codified in law as a serious criminal offence. Attempting to bury a whistleblower in this manner should be regarded as a crime akin to obstruction of justice.

Seth Brundle

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This kind of sh!t should be codified in law as a serious criminal offence. Attempting to bury a whistleblower in this manner should be regarded as a crime akin to obstruction of justice.

In fairness, Callinan has not been found guilty of anything. The allegation from McCabe is that Dave taylor told him that Callinan gave instructions. We're hearing stuff third hand.

Hitman3000

kbannon wrote:

In fairness, Callinan has not been found guilty of anything. The allegation from McCabe is that Dave taylor told him that Callinan gave instructions. We're hearing stuff third hand.

Actually McGuinness made the claim.

muckbrien

Seems to be a real dirtball Callinan

Hitman3000

muckbrien wrote:

Seems to be a real dirtball Callinan

O Sullivan isn't exactly looking too clean either.

mattser

kbannon wrote: »

In fairness, Callinan has not been found guilty of anything. The allegation from McCabe is that Dave taylor told him that Callinan gave instructions. We're hearing stuff third hand.

A lot of jumping the gun alright. I'd also prefer to hear allthe evidence, before making my mind up.

Seth Brundle

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Actually McGuinness made the claim.

Sorry, you're right. But it is still third hand info.
Taylor told McCabe about the text campaign.

Hitman3000

kbannon wrote:

Sorry, you're right. But it is still third hand info. Taylor told McCabe about the text campaign.

Actually Taylor is denying there were texts.

Seth Brundle

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Actually Taylor is denying there were texts.

McCabe is claiming it though which is my point.
We're hearing stuff that hasn't been corroborated or proven properly and some people are assuming this means Callinan and O'Sullivan are guilty of the allegations.

Tell me how

mattser wrote:

A lot of jumping the gun alright. I'd also prefer to hear allthe evidence, before making my mind up.

This sounds like a Garda press release on the matter. They know some evidence will never come out and so they cling to the seemingly moral position of "let's judge the facts".

golfball37

Dave Taylor’s phone was seized by NOSs husband as part of the investigation into his suspension.. nah nothing to see here

hatrickpatrick

I agree as far as innocent until proven guilty is concerned. Unfortunately for Callinan, his very public and very bitter attacks on Sgt McCabe (don't forget that it was he who called whistleblowing and those who engage in it "disgusting" when this issue first appeared publicly) add enormous weight to these allegations. It's a matter of public record that Callinan despised McCabe and wished he would just f*ck off, so in that context it becomes enormously believable that he personally ordered a smear campaign.

And that, ultimately, comes back to what this is all about. The fact that the Garda Commissioner publicly made remarks describing a whistleblower or their actions as "disgusting" and was not immediately asked to resign just based on that fact alone, is a problem. It shows a willingness by government to tolerate that attitude in people who run state organisations, and it shouldn't be tolerated in any context whatsoever.

http://www.thejournal.ie/martin-callinan-tribunal-disgusting-mccabe-3835104-Feb2018/

FORMER GARDA COMMISSIONER Martin Callinan’s description in January 2014 of the actions of Sergeant Maurice McCabe as “disgusting” resulted in “open season” on the whistleblower, the Disclosures Tribunal has heard.
In his evidence to the ongoing inquiry, John Barrett, the Garda’s civilian head of human resources, said that McCabe also felt the subsequent actions of Callinan’s successor, Nóirín O’Sullivan, had thrown him “back to the wolves”.

Making such remarks at all should have been a sackable offence for somebody who should be embracing those helping to weed out wrongdoing within the organisation, not attacking them.

If anyone needs a refresher:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZn_TdjvF-U

He says "there isn't a whisper anywhere else, from any other member of the Garda Siochana, about this corruption, this malpractice" - well of course there f*cking isn't, if this is how those who do come forward about it are treated.

So while yes, these remain unproven allegations against Callinan, his track record and his on-the-record attitude to this entire issue lends enormous credibility to them. Furthermore, throughout this entire saga, Sgt McCabe has never once been found to be a liar - and frankly there's so much verifiably true scandal in everything that's happened, that he'd be a complete eejit to lie about it. There's no need to lie about it and he would be the only person ultimately damaged by dishonesty at this stage.

Supt Taylor is a different matter, I don't really know anything about him so it could be that he chose to undertake this smear campaign himself and pinned it on Callinan wrongly. But that seems far fetched at best, since if that's the case it's bound to come out, and Taylor would surely have known when he had this conversation with McCabe that he would inevitably be outed if he was wrongly accusing Callinan of ordering something he ultimately undertook on his own initiative.

We'll have to wait and see, but based on all the evidence in the public domain since the beginning of this saga, Occam's Razor would suggest that McCabe is telling the truth and that Taylor was also telling the truth.

Hitman3000

kbannon wrote:

McCabe is claiming it though which is my point. We're hearing stuff that hasn't been corroborated or proven properly and some people are assuming this means Callinan and O'Sullivan are guilty of the allegations.

Well tbh honest with you, the only one I find believable in all this is McCabe.

Hitman3000

golfball37 wrote:

Dave Taylor’s phone was seized by NOSs husband as part of the investigation into his suspension.. nah nothing to see here

Several phones have gone missing....

Captain Obvious

Tell me how wrote: »

The evidence is there. Some just don't want to see it. And it will be the same when this is over as well unfortunately.

I don't doubt there are people that won't be swayed by the findings no matter what it says. People who have already decided what the result should be.

Tell me how

Captain Obvious wrote:

I don't doubt there are people that won't be swayed by the findings no matter what it says. People who have already decided what the result should be.

What do you think?

Captain Obvious

Tell me how wrote: »

What do you think?

I think McCabe comes across as honest and sincere in his testimony but I don't think it has proven anything against anyone but Taylor so far.

Water John

Are you suggesting, it's possible that Taylor was off on a solo run?

Hitman3000

Captain Obvious wrote:

I think McCabe comes across as honest and sincere in his testimony but I don't think it has proven anything against anyone but Taylor so far.

Taylor (his claim of course)was acting on orders and has dropped both former Commissioners in the frame. Hopefully they will experience some sanction. Loss of pension would be nice.