Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

golfball37

John McGuinness, Alan Kelly, Wallace and Daly have all done a good job here in bringing this carry on to light. I’d have issues with all four them on policy or behavior but good to see effective parliamentary people in action with a view to serving a public interest.

Tell me how

golfball37 wrote:

John McGuinness, Alan Kelly, Wallace and Daly have all done a good job here in bringing this carry on to light. I’d have issues with all four them on policy or behavior but good to see effective parliamentary people in action with a view to serving a public interest.

They're doing it for their own ulterior motives to be fair...
Still, they've done it.

Maurice's head must be fried after today.

Nettle Soup

On Tonight Show, the panel are discussing how 11 phones went missing. These phones belonged to Taylor and Callinan and others.

Unbelievable. It sounds like Taylor is changing his story to save his skin too.

11 phones missing. Will the Tribunal chase that? Surely they must have been reported missing or stolen.

Corruption at every turn.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Has the commission already decided there was smear campaign? I thought that was what was being decided in this module.

I didn't say every member. Members at all levels.

We seem to forget, this all goes back to a member raising concerns about the inner workings and reputation of the Garda. Look at how this has panned out;
Acts to smear, at best in error, if you can believe evidence going missing and abuse claims are errors, coupled with the spreading of such 'information'. MoJ's incompetent and unaware yet giving full confidence. Varadkar saying the DoJ is a shambles like it's a law unto itself and government has no association.

The whole organisation needs to look hard at itself and the government need do its job and govern rather than trip over itself to disassociate from one of its own departments. What a farce.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I didn't say every member. Members at all levels.

We seem to forget, this all goes back to a member raising concerns about the inner workings and reputation of the Garda. Look at how this has panned out;
Acts to smear, at best in error, if you can believe evidence going missing and abuse claims are errors, coupled with the spreading of such 'information'. MoJ's incompetent and unaware yet giving full confidence. Varadkar saying the DoJ is a shambles like it's a law unto itself and government has no association.

The whole organisation needs to look hard at itself and the government need do its job and govern rather than trip over itself to disassociate from one of its own departments. What a farce.

Yes I can believe evidence goes missing and errors being made. I think even McCabe at this stage believes the HSE made the mistake with the allegations.

I don't think an organised smear campaign was needed. The very nature of the way correspondence is handled in the organisation means that many eyes see every piece of correspondence and something like a Garda being accused of child abuse would have spread like wildfire throughout the ranks.

Where I think McCabe was wronged by management was in their failure to correct the record. Did they have a legal responsibility to do it? I don't think so. It wasn't their error. Did they have a moral responsibility? I think so. A child abuser is the most hated type of person and a Garda who abuses children would be the lowest of the low in the eyes of other Gardaí and a person wrongly accused of this should have their record cleared beyond doubt.

mattser

Dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi.....absolutely farcical this.

Water John

Mattser, perhaps you might clarify, your cryptic line.

Tell me how

Water John wrote:

Mattser, perhaps you might clarify, your cryptic line.

mattser wrote:

Dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi.....absolutely farcical this.

God help us when a bit of Irish is viewed as cryptic.

It's an old Irish phrase translated as "A woman told me that a woman told her....." implying that people acknowledge they heard something but refuse to say where they heard it from.

Water John

Tell Me, I used the phrase and Mattser quoted it back to meand I asked why?
Yes, it's an Irish seanfhocal. Simply, a Chinese Whisper.
It thus has no validity, in law, as evidence, it's third party. This would not have been a surprise to any of the people involved.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Yes I can believe evidence goes missing and errors being made. I think even McCabe at this stage believes the HSE made the mistake with the allegations.

I don't think an organised smear campaign was needed. The very nature of the way correspondence is handled in the organisation means that many eyes see every piece of correspondence and something like a Garda being accused of child abuse would have spread like wildfire throughout the ranks.

Where I think McCabe was wronged by management was in their failure to correct the record. Did they have a legal responsibility to do it? I don't think so. It wasn't their error. Did they have a moral responsibility? I think so. A child abuser is the most hated type of person and a Garda who abuses children would be the lowest of the low in the eyes of other Gardaí and a person wrongly accused of this should have their record cleared beyond doubt.

Then there's the evidence going missing and McCabe blamed.
There are decent Garda, unfortunately it seems their institution is the problem and many people at all levels. They even threw there own junior members under the bus as regards breath tests and similar issues McCabe raised.

Water John

PK on TV3 tonight on should the Guards be totally reorganised. Follow up on Dail subcommittee today, with incorrect data figures, and strong pressure to withdraw, the claims of the professional staff involved.

Tell me how

Water John wrote: »

PK on TV3 tonight on should the Guards be totally reorganised. Follow up on Dail subcommittee today, with incorrect data figures, and strong pressure to withdraw, the claims of the professional staff involved.

Michael McDowell tried to do that when he was Minister for Justice. To no avail.
Where's he now? Representing Maurice McCabe.

The ironing is delicious

Muahahaha

Tell me how wrote: »

Michael McDowell tried to do that when he was Minister for Justice. To no avail.
Where's he now? Representing Maurice McCabe.

The ironing is delicious

In fairness to McDowell it was his 2005 Garda Act that allowed whistleblowers for the first time to raise their concerns with people external to Garda management. McDowells legislation established the confidential recipient for Gardai to raise concerns with and it also permits Gardai to contact individual TDs. Without that legislation whistleblowers like McCabe could only have complained to Garda HQ, who clearly dont like complaints being made by the rank and file.

Tell me how

Muahahaha wrote:

In fairness to McDowell it was his 2005 Garda Act that allowed whistleblowers for the first time to raise their concerns with people external to Garda management. McDowells legislation established the confidential recipient for Gardai to raise concerns with and it also permits Gardai to contact individual TDs. Without that legislation whistleblowers like McCabe could only have complained to Garda HQ, who clearly dont like complaints being made by the rank and file.

Absolutely. I use McDowell the whole time as an example of a politican who tried to do positive things and got turfed out on his ear by the electorate for his trouble.

James Brown

The Garda need to modernise.
HR use to just give you your contract and assist with interviews. These days in modern business HR are much more powerful and strictly follow rules regarding employee disputes.
However the Garda need an outside oversight body as the institution, as it stands, can't be relied upon to act fairly towards its own members.

golfball37

There’s no political appetite to reform the Gardai as FF/FG see them as their friendly police force. The consequences of having that political power is now being felt as the Gardai top brass would have an untouchable gait to them.
The whole oversight and political interference needs to be removed and done independently. Sadly the rank and file Gardai who do a good job continue to get smeared by association.

Tell me how

golfball37 wrote: »

There’s no political appetite to reform the Gardai as FF/FG see them as their friendly police force. The consequences of having that political power is now being felt as the Gardai top brass would have an untouchable gait to them.
The whole oversight and political interference needs to be removed and done independently. Sadly the rank and file Gardai who do a good job continue to get smeared by association.

I agree completely with this. The look on Noreen O'Sullivans face at 34 seconds as Callinan calls the whistleblowers disgusting is like a scene from Animal farm with O'Sullivan playing the part of Napoleon.

golfball37 wrote: »

Sadly the rank and file Gardai who do a good job continue to get smeared by association.

I disagree with the view that all rank and file are being unfairly smeared. Some of the issues highlighted by McCabe started with poor behaviour by rank and file. The top brass would not get away with their attitude if it was not largely acceptable by the R&F.

The top brass are ultimately responsible and they have allowed a force to develop where poor performers within the R&F can get away with it but those poor performers are there, the same as they are in every branch of society or company.

Edward M

"I see dead people", in a low, sharp voice with a deeply troubled, scared look on my face.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/revealed-garda-mistakenly-kept-intelligence-on-sightings-of-the-dead-36785076.html

Seth Brundle

Edward M wrote: »

"I see dead people", in a low, sharp voice with a deeply troubled, scared look on my face.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/revealed-garda-mistakenly-kept-intelligence-on-sightings-of-the-dead-36785076.html

Just shows the quality of the "intelligence" used in some of their cases!
:rolleyes:

McMurphy

Anyone know why the housing minister would be added to the list of witnesses in the McCabe scandal?

Also called.

Pat Rabbite.
Michael Martin
John Kennedy
Frank Walsh
Brian Purcell.

Monday 16th April.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Anyone know why the housing minister would be added to the list of witnesses in the McCabe scandal?

Also called.

Pat Rabbite.
Michael Martin
John Kennedy
Frank Walsh
Brian Purcell.

Monday 16th April.

He was a member of the Public Accounts Committee at the time.

Interesting that Sinn Fein have backed off a confidence motion in him as Housing Minister. Once you table such a motion, you cannot table another one for six months if it is defeated. They may believe his evidence to the Tribunal may provide a different opportunity.

Odhinn

"Former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan described two Garda whistleblowers as "fucking headbangers" and said that one of them "fiddles with kids", the Disclosures Tribunal has heard.

Fianna Fáil TD John McGuinness alleged Mr Callinan made the “headbangers” comment about former garda John Wilson and Sgt Maurice McCabe after a meeting of the Dáil Public Accounts Committee on January 23, 2014.

He said he believed the second remark was a reference to Sgt McCabe, about whom false allegations had been circulating in Leinster House."
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/callinan-said-garda-whistleblowers-were-headbangers-and-one-fiddles-with-kids-td-claims-36788423.html

“He confiscated the horse, mounted the horse and rode it back to the barracks where he tied it to the railings. And the other fella fiddles with kids. And that is the type of fucking headbangers I’m dealing with,” Mr Callinan is alleged to have said."


I've absolutely no doubt whose version of the events I believe here, tbh.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

I've absolutely no doubt whose version of the events I believe here, tbh.

Whose???!

tayto lover

Ha ha that's very funny about Wilson and the horse. I always loved The Lone Ranger as a kid.

Water John

Callinan says, there all lying about what he said to them.

Odhinn

bubblypop wrote: »

Whose???!

McGuinness.

James Brown

It'll be tough to prove Callinan saying that. I would tend to believe it juding by the provable elements so far and Callinan saying he doesn't recall if O'Sullivan was there sounds like him having her back.

Where are we going with this? A cheesy 'don't do that anymore' recommendation? The players are gone, and we won't get any accountability.

McMurphy

bubblypop wrote: »

Whose???!

One of them has form for talking about whistleblowers in a derogatory manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2IatyJNS_w

Based on that alone, I'm taking McGuinness' version of event's.

Nettle Soup

Garda whistleblowers were headbangers and one fiddles with kids

It beggars belief how Callinan got to any kind of a leadership position in any organisation never mind one as large as the Gardaí.

It reflects how dysfunctional the whole Garda force is that he was their commissioner. O'Sullivan was no better.

The man should be prosecuted. But no, he will completely get away it.

Nettle Soup

Have the Gardaí had time to find any of the mobile phones that went missing?

11 Missing Phones
The tribunal heard that of 15 phones used by Taylor, Callinan and current Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan during the period in question, only four had been received by the tribunal.