Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Hitman3000

bubblypop wrote:

Really?

Yeah, I saw even on Boards a few self confessed rank and file Garda question McCabes integrity. Have a look back yourself through the threads about McCabe. I believe you even made several contributions, you're a serving member correct me if I'm wrong.

James Brown

It's not surprising the Garda won't stand by one of their own, (McCabe) trying to do the right thing for the force, look how the top brass threw the lower ranks under the bus regarding the breath tests. Unfortunate.

Matt Barrett

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yes, you not been following? Evidence was misplaced and McCabe blamed. He was wrongly accused of child abuse. Then we've the ongoing issues and now the commissioner accused of lying yet again. That's two politicians, arguably from separate parties and a solicitor not to mention McCabe himself.

None of those things say that lower ranks were involved in a smear campaign.

James Brown

bubblypop wrote: »

None of those things say that lower ranks were involved in a smear campaign.

Yes they do. Evidence was removed, McCabe blamed. The abuse claims. All because he stuck his head up. Are you suggesting this was all Callinan's doing or magic? Random members of the public were calling him a Rat on social media mind...
Again, we've McCabe saying it was, and the result of him trying to improve the force was an inside hatchet job. It's just being decided how deep and high up it went.
What are you trying to get at here? I'm not sure what point you are making.

McMurphy

bubblypop wrote: »

None of those things say that lower ranks were involved in a smear campaign.

Who was sending out the texts? (As one example)

Unless it was Callinan himself, well then that would leave people to believe it was members of the Force of lower ranks.

Stop getting defensive, no one thinks it involved every member, but it is a safe assumption Callinan wasn't waging the smear campaign alone, like some lone wolf.

Matt Barrett

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yes they do. Evidence was removed, McCabe blamed. The abuse claims. All because he stuck his head up. Are you suggesting this was all Callinan's doing or magic? Random members of the public were calling him a Rat on social media mind...
Again, we've McCabe saying it was, and the result of him trying to improve the force was an inside hatchet job. It's just being decided how deep and high up it went.
What are you trying to get at here? I'm not sure what point you are making.

I'm trying to make the point that lower ranks of Gardai were not involved in a smear campaign & I don't believe there is any evidence otherwise.
Maybe I am missing something somewhere? If I am please point me the right way.

Edward M

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm trying to make the point that lower ranks of Gardai were not involved in a smear campaign & I don't believe there is any evidence otherwise.
Maybe I am missing something somewhere? If I am please point me the right way.

I think there is evidence he was thought of badly in stations he worked in, disputes with his immediate superiors and such.
In general, and more is the pity, but most workers in any job, don't like working with people who try to shake up a cosy system, from the most junior up.

RustyNut

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm trying to make the point that lower ranks of Gardai were not involved in a smear campaign & I don't believe there is any evidence otherwise.
Maybe I am missing something somewhere? If I am please point me the right way.

Some of the Gardai that post on here certainly attempted to smear Mcabe. I suppose it's possible that they are senior members.

James Brown

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm trying to make the point that lower ranks of Gardai were not involved in a smear campaign & I don't believe there is any evidence otherwise.
Maybe I am missing something somewhere? If I am please point me the right way.

There is no way one or two superintendents and/or Callinan acted alone. Or are we led to believe there was a tragedy of errors regarding McCabe's treatment?
The orgainisation need to be dismantled and rebuilt.

Captain Obvious

Edward M wrote: »

I think there is evidence he was thought of badly in stations he worked in, disputes with his immediate superiors and such.
In general, and more is the pity, but most workers in any job, don't like working with people who try to shake up a cosy system, from the most junior up.

It's a bit presumptive to say he was disliked because of trying to shake up the system. The Guerin report doesn't paint him as a great supervisor.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's a bit presumptive to say he was disliked because of trying to shake up the system. The Guerin report doesn't paint him as a great supervisor.

Perhaps he had dead rodents nailed to his door, and had false accusations spread around about him because of his supervisory skills all along

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Perhaps he had dead rodents nailed to his door, and had false accusations spread around about him because of his supervisory skills all along

That doesn't seem likely.

Hitman3000

bubblypop wrote:

I'm trying to make the point that lower ranks of Gardai were not involved in a smear campaign & I don't believe there is any evidence otherwise. Maybe I am missing something somewhere? If I am please point me the right way.

Would that be the same lower ranks that had no part in the inflated breath test figures?

Captain Obvious

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Would that be the same lower ranks that had no part in the inflated breath test figures?

Was that part of the smear campaign?

RustyNut

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's a bit presumptive to say he was disliked because of trying to shake up the system. The Guerin report doesn't paint him as a great supervisor.

This is one of the smears that was posted here before by members of AGS.

Here is a copy of the Guerin Report.

Here is a quote from the actual report, you might be good enough and quote the passages from the report that state that Sgt Mcabe was not a good supervisor.

20.5 It should be recorded here that the Byrne-McGinn report found that:
"No malice on the part of Sergeant McCabe is established in the
making of his various complaints."
20.6 The time I have spent with Sergeant McCabe in the course of extensive
interviews has led me to no different conclusion. That said, the better
view, in any event, is likely to be the testimony of the men and women who
worked with Sergeant McCabe in the years before he made the complaints
that have been examined in this report.
20.7 The Byrne-McGinn investigation received statements from all of the District
Officers who had responsibility for Bailieboro District between 2003 and
2010. Chief Superintendent Gabriel Mclntyre said:
"I found Sergeant McCabe to be very positive and energetic in his
position. He displayed a strong work ethic with a strong emphasis in
community policing and to providing a high standard of policing to
the community."
20.8 Detective Superintendent Eugene Corcoran said:
"I found Sergeant McCabe to be capable and enthusiastic in his
approach to his duties. At all times I found him to be efficient. . . . I
would assess his performance very positively. In my experience he
was hard working and efficient. He understood the need to keep the
District Officer advised of all matters requiring attention at
Superintendent Level. . . . I found him to be very interested in his
work and in ensuring that matters were attended to promptly."
I 20.9 Retired Superintendent Liam Hogan said:
"I considered Sergeant McCabe to be an excellent Sergeant and
member of An Garda Siochana. He offered 200% commitment and was
my one of my most reliable members in the District. I relied on him, I
trusted him implicitly and I listened to his advice. . . . He was full of
enthusiasm with a very positive attitude. I was aware that he worked Chapter 20 Conclusions and Recommendations
hard and long hours displaying absolute loyalty and commitment to
An Garda Siochana, to the management team in the District, to his
colleagues and to the people of Balieboro. He took a particular
interest in the work progress and welfare of junior members in the
District HQ."
20.10 Superintendent M Lernihan said:
"I found [Sergeant McCabe] to be efficient, flexible and committed.
He was diligent in the performance of his duties. He encouraged and
directed those under his supervision and had a good working
relationship with the other Sergeants."

Mr.Micro

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Would that be the same lower ranks that had no part in the inflated breath test figures?

Integrity needs to be taught at Templemore.

Captain Obvious

RustyNut wrote: »

This is one of the smears that was posted here before by members of AGS.

Here is a copy of the Guerin Report.

Here is a quote from the actual report, you might be good enough and quote the passages from the report that state that Sgt Mcabe was not a good supervisor.

Sorry, I was thinking of the O'Higgins report were he was described as prone to exaggeration. But this is borne out in the Guerin report too. His knowledge of the law appeared to be lacking, suggesting crimes be categorised inappropriately and incorrectly. He had "no recollection" of receiving certain reports from members. And in one case, I believe an assault at a hotel, he was told by his district officer to take control of the case and still blamed the probationer when things went awry. Chapter 7 of the report is a good example of these issues.

Hitman3000

Captain Obvious wrote:

Was that part of the smear campaign?

The suggestion only Callinan carried out the smear campaign is what has been put forward so I was just curious as to whom maybe responsible for the false breath tests. If you feel the question is off topic feel free to ignore it.

Captain Obvious

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The suggestion only Callinan carried out the smear campaign is what has been put forward so I was just curious as to whom maybe responsible for the false breath tests.

What relevance have the two issues got to each other?

Water John

It indicates that, at a whole lot of levels, various unacceptable practises were acceptable.

James Brown

It must not be forgotten, behind all the stories about how McCabe was treated, he drew attention to troubling issues within the Garda. Any institution worth its salt should be thanking it's own members who come forward with organisational problems.

Hitman3000

Captain Obvious wrote:

What relevance have the two issues got to each other?

Thought it was obvious.

Captain Obvious

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Thought it was obvious.

It isn't. The question is whether there is evidence that regular Gardaí had anything to do with the smear campaign and your response is that they were involved in dodgy breath tests. Basically you're saying there is no evidence but here's an example of something else they did.

Spanish Eyes

Outlier here.

I have often wondered if there any stats regarding non aligned recruits versus nepotism? Should be an easy question to ask on an application form.....

20/80, 50/50 what?

That might help, because as we all know if you get a job because your mammy, daddy, grandad, uncle put in a word, well that cohort does not want to rock the boat!

I know the great indignant will retort by saying that recruitment is under the aegis of the PAS and so on. Sorry I still don't believe the pull factor has gone completely. Going maybe, but not gone yet!

Anyway, back to the issue at hand. Salutes.

Hitman3000

Captain Obvious wrote:

It isn't. The questions is whether there is evidence that regular Gardaí had anything to do with the smear campaign and your response is that they were involved in dodgy breath tests. Basically you're saying there is no evidence but here's an example of something else they did.

Again we are expected to believe only the former Commissioner was involved in the smear campaign, busy lad but yet we have evidence that rank and file was engaged in falsifying breath tests. It would stretch credibility to try and claim rank and file had no part in the abuse McCabe received. Of course you can believe what you wish, I have family members who are all Garda rank and they have commented how some of their colleagues behaved. So you have your belief, I'll stick with what I have been told.

Captain Obvious

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Again we are expected to believe only the former Commissioner was involved in the smear campaign, busy lad but yet we have evidence that rank and file was engaged in falsifying breath tests. It would stretch credibility to try and claim rank and file had no part in the abuse McCabe received. Of course you can believe what you wish, I have family members who are all Garda rank and they have commented how some of their colleagues behaved. So you have your belief, I'll stick with what I have been told.

But again I ask, what relevance has the breath tests to the McCabe stuff? What link are you making there?

Hitman3000

Captain Obvious wrote:

But again I ask, what relevance has the breath tests to the McCabe stuff? What link are you making there?

It points to the behaviour throughout the force and not just reserved exclusively to the upper echelons. Quite easy to make the link if one is willing.

Captain Obvious

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It points to the behaviour throughout the force and not just reserved exclusively to the upper echelons. Quite easy to make the link if one is willing.

But different behaviour. Your using an example of unprofessional behaviour to try prove unrelated malicious behaviour.

Hitman3000

Captain Obvious wrote:

But different behaviour. Your using an example of unprofessional behaviour to try prove unrelated malicious behaviour.

Your opinion.

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Kean says Callinan lied to him on a number of occasions regarding McCabe. If proven, could this be sufficient to show, in the least, the Garda commissioner was smearing his name? We already know lower ranks did. If so, how many levels of how many Garda need to be shown, before, let's say a Minister in charge of the Justice department? Or any body with power for that matter, steps up to reorganise and clean up the Garda? Or will it be, wait and see, give lip service to following recommendations and forget about it? Be nice to see some action in the positive.

'The Gardai have a tough job to do, its best to let them get on with it' is a common attitude in the DOJ.

It's worth pointing out again that a senior gardas word was/is taken as infallible, both within the civil service/Gardai, and by many of the public. With such an attitude, it should come as no surprise that this has happened, and people should expect worse to come out, in areas not even hinted at thus far.