Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

McMurphy

Odhinn wrote: »

'The Gardai have a tough job to do, its best to let them get on with it' is a common attitude in the DOJ.

It's worth pointing out again that a senior gardas word was/is taken as infallible, both within the civil service/Gardai, and by many of the public. With such an attitude, it should come as no surprise that this has happened, and people should expect worse to come out, in areas not even hinted at thus far.

This.

Yes Gerald Kean is a lawyer, and yes Lawyers are oftimes "economical with the truth" when it comes to representing their clients.

However, Kean has said that he felt Callinan "was beyond reproach" - ie he took the then commissioner at his word, and I'm sure many others would equally have did so imo, he'll - we're talking about the feckin police commisoner here, the head bucko of the state's police force.

Looks like Kean was sold a pup, and can now consider himself a 'Liar' as far as Callinan and his ilk are concerned.

Just another name to add to the list I suppose .

Water John

The Garda Commissioner should have been proud the regale the story of 'McCloud' impounding the horse. Great yarn, no sense of humour.

Auguste Comte

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Just another name to add to the list I suppose .

And another. I'm keeping an open mind but there does seem to be a pattern developing.

The Comptroller and Auditor General has told the Disclosures Tribunal the former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan told him there were allegations of sexual offences against Maurice McCabe.

Hitman3000

Callinan reminds of an army joke.
Mrs Murphy goes to watch her Johnny's passing out parade. She turns to her husband and says " I feel sorry for all those other boys, my Johnny is the only one 'in step' ".

McMurphy

Auguste Comte wrote: »

And another. I'm keeping an open mind but there does seem to be a pattern developing.

On patterns developing, here's something else.

By January 2014, he was due to attend a Public Accounts Committee in Leinster House where he told the Disclosures Tribunal the then Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan approached him.

He said Mr Callinan told him garda whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe was not to be trusted, had questions to answer and there were allegations of sexual offences against him

Mr McCarthy said he was surprised and did not tell anyone what had happened.

We have McGuinness pretty much saying the same thing, and Kean saying he felt the commissioner was "beyond reproach ".

The cynical side of me is thinking that Callinan was abusing that assumption most people might have of the commisoner of the Garda actually being beyond reproach, and thus keeping this false information to themselves.

I will be truly stunned at this stage if Callinan is exonerated.

Seth Brundle

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

We have McGuinness pretty much saying the same thing, and Kean saying he felt the commissioner was "beyond reproach ".

The cynical side of me is thinking that Callinan was abusing that assumption most people might have of the commisoner of the Garda actually being beyond reproach, and thus keeping this false information to themselves.

Hypothetically, if you heard a garda commissioner saying something like this, you'd naturally believe it. Sure, why wouldn't you?
If you then discovered that the rumours were completely unfounded and/or part of a smear campaign, what would you do? Who would you tell? Would you be concerned in case the rumours were then linked to you?
I suppose what I'm wondering is: were those that heard the rumours and doubted them scared in any way?

James Brown

kbannon wrote: »

Hypothetically, if you heard a garda commissioner saying something like this, you'd naturally believe it. Sure, why wouldn't you?
If you then discovered that the rumours were completely unfounded and/or part of a smear campaign, what would you do? Who would you tell? Would you be concerned in case the rumours were then linked to you?
I suppose what I'm wondering is: were those that heard the rumours and doubted them scared in any way?

You've got to look at the country and the players involved. You don't go against the grain. Look at what happened to McCabe. And how many others that we don't know about got passed over for promotion or sidelined in their professional or political careers? If you fall out of favour with the 'chief' or 'boss' you can't really complain to HR.
Ireland runs on the nod and the wink.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

On patterns developing, here's something else.



We have McGuinness pretty much saying the same thing, and Kean saying he felt the commissioner was "beyond reproach ".

The cynical side of me is thinking that Callinan was abusing that assumption most people might have of the commisoner of the Garda actually being beyond reproach, and thus keeping this false information to themselves.

I will be truly stunned at this stage if Callinan is exonerated.

From the evidence so far Callinan looks in trouble. It will be interesting to see what the judge says as he has called it very straight in his reports to date.

However, it has to be noted that not a finger has been laid on O'Sullivan, Fitzgerald or Shatter. This thread is entitled "should another Garda Commissioner resign?" and is directed at O'Sullivan. So far, the answer to the question posed seems to be no.

It may well be that there is more evidence to come so it is not over yet.

golfball37

It’s amazing in Eire the way we distinguish between a legal wrong and a moral wrong. O Sullivan should be out on her ear years ago. Shatter, Fitzgerald are all morally culpable too no matter what verbal gymnastics they come up with that covers them legally.
We accept this as a people however and the big question is when are we going to take responsibility for our own part in what’s happening to McCabe

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

From the evidence so far Callinan looks in trouble. It will be interesting to see what the judge says as he has called it very straight in his reports to date.

However, it has to be noted that not a finger has been laid on O'Sullivan, Fitzgerald or Shatter. This thread is entitled "should another Garda Commissioner resign?" and is directed at O'Sullivan. So far, the answer to the question posed seems to be no.

It may well be that there is more evidence to come so it is not over yet.

As regards O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald, there is email evidence that AGS hatched a plan to suggest McCabe had an axe to grind ref the spurious sexual abuse allegations.

Fitzgerald "noted" said email.

Both of them publicly supported McCabe, while privately they were in cahoots to do the complete opposite.

Surely a resigning matter in its own right.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

As regards O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald, there is email evidence that AGS hatched a plan to suggest McCabe had an axe to grind ref the spurious sexual abuse allegations.

Fitzgerald "noted" said email.

Both of them publicly supported McCabe, while privately they were in cahoots to do the complete opposite.

Surely a resigning matter in its own right.

That is your interpretation of the evidence given at the Tribunal.

I doubt very much that the judge agrees with you, why don't we wait and see what he says about this.

James Brown

Callinan can remember not saying specific wording, but is unclear if O'Sullivan was there.
Again, Callinan could not have been working in a vacuum unless he gets about. Was he Pat Rabbitte's driver? Was he posting anonymously to social media? Varadkar was right to let Fitzgereald go. He'd no choice, bluster and front aside. Kenny should have jumped all over Callinan from day one. The 'Full confidence' line trotted out by Kenny and the Varadkar is lazy governing. We need politicians in government not afraid to ask questions.
If, as Varadkar believes, the DoJ is in shambles, is it not on the MoJ to take responsibility? Looking to nameless civil servants and misplaced or misunderstood emails is shambolic.

RustyNut

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm trying to make the point that lower ranks of Gardai were not involved in a smear campaign & I don't believe there is any evidence otherwise.
Maybe I am missing something somewhere? If I am please point me the right way.

Here's one example of a lower rank garda joining in the smear campaign.

Former minister Pat Rabbitte said that after a 2014 RTinterview, he spoke with his driver, former Garda John Kennedy.

"He said he hadn't known I knew Maurice McCabe. He wanted to warn me in my own best interests of wading into the controversy when the rumours on the grapevine said he might not be a man of the character I said he was," Mr Rabbitte said.

Mr Rabbitte said Mr Kennedy told him that Sgt McCabe "couldn't be trusted, his own colleagues said he couldn't be trusted with children

Captain Obvious

RustyNut wrote: »

Here's one example of a lower rank garda joining in the smear campaign.

Former Garda.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Former Garda.

Would you think the 'grapevine' he's referring to might be millennials on Snapchat?

tayto lover

I read what happened at the Tribunal today and I can't make head nor tail of it.

As Judge Judy said it's all a load of "who shot John" or "hearsay".
Nobody today seemed to have first hand information on anything.

This whole sham is a waste of taxpayers money except for solicitors and barristers.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

I read what happened at the Tribunal today and I can't make head nor tail of it.

As Judge Judy said it's all a load of "who shot John" or "hearsay".
Nobody today seemed to have first hand information on anything.

This whole sham is a waste of taxpayers money except for solicitors and barristers.

It's to be seen to be doing something. I can't see anyone getting their pension docked. Maybe sued, but I doubt McCabe could afford that. Might McCabe have a case to sue An Garda, if the smear is beyond doubt?

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Would you think the 'grapevine' he's referring to might be millennials on Snapchat?

I think it's more likely to be the politicians and their staff he regularly interacts with.

RustyNut

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's to be seen to be doing something. I can't see anyone getting their pension docked. Maybe sued, but I doubt McCabe could afford that.

He might have a few quid to fight his corner thanks to some of the smears originating from AGS being repeated on RTE.

RTE has paid out in excess of €180,000 in damages and costs as a result of comments by solicitor Gerald Kean about garda whistleblowers Sgt Maurice McCabe and John Wilson in 2014.

The Disclosures Tribunal heard Mr Kean had been briefed negatively about both men by garda commissioner Martin Callinan the day before he appeared on the Marian Finucane radio show, during which the remarks were made.

Mr Kean told the tribunal Mr Callinan had told him the whistleblowers had not co-operated with an internal garda investigation and that both had broken data protection laws.

Neither of these statements were based on fact and led to legal proceedings being taken by Mr McCabe and Mr Wilson.

The Irish Examiner understands RTsettled the actions with the payment of over €180,000. The station had no comment to make.

Odhinn

So far we've had TD's from different parties, a "celeb" & a former garda say they've heard stories about Garda McCabe, all of which seem very consistent.

James Brown

RustyNut wrote: »

He might have a few quid to fight his corner thanks to some of the smears originating from AGS being repeated on RTE.

Aside, but why the hell did RTE, (the tax payer) end up on the hook for that? I might sue RTE myself sure.

tayto lover

Odhinn wrote: »

So far we've had TD's from different parties, a "celeb" & a former garda say they've heard stories about Garda McCabe, all of which seem very consistent.

And what will all this do?
Callinan is already gone. They won't take him back and then sack him.
It's all a total waste of time.

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

I read what happened at the Tribunal today and I can't make head nor tail of it.

As Judge Judy said it's all a load of "who shot John" or "hearsay".
Nobody today seemed to have first hand information on anything.

This whole sham is a waste of taxpayers money except for solicitors and barristers.

Broadly agree with your assessment of today Tayto, my own favourite lines from today's coverage came from a one Mr Brian Purcell.


Purcell is asked about this text he sent to Callinan after his PAC performance: "

Purcell wrote:

Well done, exceptional performance under fire. Brian" - sent at 3.02 on Jan 23, 2014. This was the meeting Callinan made his "disgusting" remark

The tribunal also seen texts between Callinan and Purcell on March 6 2016. Text from Callinan to Purcell saying:

Callinan wrote:

"About 120 protesters outside Mullingar station Ming Flanagan, Maura Harrington, etc. Supporting McCabe. M"

Purcell texted back:

Purcell wrote:

"You can judge a man by his friends"

. Callinan texted back:

Callinan wrote:

"Some shower Brian"

The icing on the cake for me personally though had to be this gem from today.

Purcell, when asked about the congratulatory text he sent to Callinan after the PAC meeting. He replied

Purcell wrote:

I knew he (Callinan) had a tough time..."this was an expression of solidarity", you have to go through the experience** to understand it

**5hrs in PAC

Odhinn

tayto lover wrote: »

And what will all this do?
Callinan is already gone. They won't take him back and then sack him.
It's all a total waste of time.

Damaging Callinans reputation and word as a Garda is vital and will allow others to come forward. There's far worse to come about that man, and hopefully the many others who have suffered because him will see it happen before he dies. Your "waste of time" is the only hope we've had in the last four decades.

tayto lover

Callinan will be found by the Tribunal to have attempted to blacken Mc Cabe's name. I have little doubt. He will then claim that he was only acting on the information he received and had little control over it.

Nothing will happen to him. He has friends who are politicians and judges. People who were looked after.
The senior garda members when all this happened are now retired.
So what's the point of all this?

Auguste Comte

tayto lover wrote: »

Callinan will be found by the Tribunal to have attempted to blacken Mc Cabe's name. I have little doubt. He will then claim that he was only acting on the information he received and had little control over it.

Nothing will happen to him. He has friends who are politicians and judges. People who were looked after.
The senior garda members when all this happened are now retired.
So what's the point of all this?

The only other option would be a cover up which would be a complete disservice to McCabe, all the honest Gardai and society in general.

What would you suggest?

tayto lover

Auguste Comte wrote: »

The only other option would be a cover up which would be a complete disservice to McCabe, all the honest Gardai and society in general.

What would you suggest?

I honestly don't know.
I have not seen one Tribunal that much good came out of.
I can see Mc Cabe getting a good bit of money and retiring himself.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

I honestly don't know.
I have not seen one Tribunal that much good came out of.
I can see Mc Cabe getting a good bit of money and retiring himself.

That's the plan. You get tired, don't bother. It's like people who don't see any point in voting.
We need to keep pushing for a fair shake for everyone and they can throw all the 'whinger', 'moaner' crap designed to try silence any debate all they like. McCabe's best option might be to sue. Now if he wins it'll be the reliable Tax payer footing the bill but it might knock a domino somewhere.

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That's the plan. You get tired, don't bother. It's like people who don't see any point in voting.
We need to keep pushing for a fair shake for everyone and they can throw all the 'whinger', 'moaner' crap designed to try silence any debate all they like. McCabe's best option might be to sue. Now if he wins it'll be the reliable Tax payer footing the bill but it might knock a domino somewhere.

Matt the taxpayer will pay regardless of what happens. He always does.
Callinan will lose his "good name" and that's that.

I am old enough to remember the beef tribunal, Esat etc.

bleary

I love how concerned callinan was to let people know about the dark character of Maurice McCabe in relation to children.

Unfortunately the same concern was not extended to Tipp man
Jerry McGrath, who beat the living day lights out of one woman before attempting to abduct a child and then murdering another woman , all the time facing minimal consequences.

Was he out protecting the public from him?
No , instead McCabe was being blamed there too. Even though he was the one raising the issues about poorly supervised and trained Garda.
While the superintendent was sending rosy reports that all was well , nothing to see here.