Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

RustyNut

RustyNut wrote: »

Here's one example of a lower rank garda joining in the smear campaign.

rumor and gossip are not proof of a smear campaign.

Water John

Campaign, is a key concept. Does this mean, it has to be centrally orchestrated? Could, as happens in many orgs, the fact that nobody called halt, be seen in this light? Basically, you have let loose the dogs, on an individual.

In a Co, if the senior management was aware of bullying and took no active measures to stop it, they are guilty, and the case will be found against them.

Edward M

bubblypop wrote: »

rumor and gossip are not proof of a smear campaign.

I thought a smear campaign was the spread of rumor and gossip!
But that said, it is easy to talk of some gossip you heard, without being party to an actual campaign. When that happens though, the campaign is working.
Living close to Arva, Co Cavan, and knowing personally some members of McCabes wife's family, we all here were well aware of the rumors about him, it was widespread in the towns shops and pubs, that campaign worked well and did raise more questions about McCabe than it did about the issues he was highlighting at the time.
Looking at it now, that campaign was probably what made McCabe so resolute, he had to go all the way with it just to clear his name.

Edward M

Edward M wrote: »

But that said, it is easy to talk of some gossip you heard, without being party to an actual campaign.

exactly what I mean.

McMurphy

bubblypop wrote: »

rumor and gossip are not proof of a smear campaign.

If the Rumours and gossip were deliberately spread, known to be false allegations designed to discredit someone, then that's exactly what a smear campaign is.

Water John

We now have the wacky revelation, only dug out by the Tribunal that, Callinan drafted part of Kean's response to the legal case being taken against him by McCabe.WTF?
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0417/955132-disclosures-tribunal-chairman/
Supt Frank Walsh, Callinan's private secretary, gave it to Kean from Callinan.
Here is a Supt, doing the bidding of the Commissioner, knowing it was wrong.

Auguste Comte

bubblypop wrote: »

rumor and gossip are not proof of a smear campaign.

Isn't that how a smear campaign works. The people with bad intentions give false derogatory information to the canteen gossip and the village gossip and gossipy journalists in the sure knowledge that the story's will grow legs.

The gossips are not necessarily on the inside of the attempted character assassination, more so useful idiots who unwittingly serve the purpose of the people who started the campaign.

Captain Obvious

Water John wrote: »

We now have the wacky revelation, only dug out by the Tribunal that, Callinan drafted part of Kean's response to the legal case being taken against him by McCabe.WTF?
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0417/955132-disclosures-tribunal-chairman/
Supt Frank Walsh, Callinan's private secretary, gave it to Kean from Callinan.
Here is a Supt, doing the bidding of the Commissioner, knowing it was wrong.

Doesn't look like he drafted his response. He was asked for information and responded and Kean simply incorporated it into his response. Or am i missing something in the story you posted?

McMurphy

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Isn't that how a smear campaign works. The people with bad intentions give false derogatory information to the canteen gossip and the village gossip and gossipy journalists in the sure knowledge that the story's will grow legs.

The gossips are not necessarily on the inside of the attempted character assassination, more so useful idiots who unwittingly serve the purpose of the people who started the campaign.

I recall a while ago, when McCabes plight started to become public knowledge, at that particular time, there was a number of people - who openly admitted to being rank and file members of AGS, telling other posters that there was a lot of things about McCabe that ordinary folk weren't aware of, and how he wasn't exactly the angel (or words to that effect)people were being led to believe .

In hindsight, I get the feeling that they may have been sold a pup.

RustyNut

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Would you think the 'grapevine' he's referring to might be millennials on Snapchat?

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I think it's more likely to be the politicians and their staff he regularly interacts with.

Katie Hannon on the Claire Byrne show last night was fairly specific that it was "the Garda grapevine" and she was present at the hearing.

Captain Obvious

RustyNut wrote: »

Katie Hannon on the Claire Byrne show last night was fairly specific that it was "the Garda grapevine" and she was present at the hearing.

I wasn't aware the retired Garda had given evidence.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I wasn't aware the retired Garda had given evidence.

He did

However, the driver John Kennedy denies he ever said this.

He took to the witness box in the DT and there was a moment of light relief and laughter when he said Pat Rabbitte could be grumpy in the morning and the former Minister saw him more than his wife.

But his evidence turned serious when he said he never said anything to Pat Rabbitte about Maurice McCabe and child abuse

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

He did

Thanks. So nothing about a Garda grape vine for retired members?

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Thanks. So nothing about a Garda grape vine for retired members?

Do you think it more likely civilian members of the public with no connection to the Garda what so ever, for some reason, took it upon themselves to spread rumours about McCabe, with details they are very unlikely to have been privy to, (evidence going missing/allegations of abuse etc.)?

Hitman3000

Captain Obvious wrote:

Thanks. So nothing about a Garda grape vine for retired members?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Auguste Comte

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Thanks. So nothing about a Garda grape vine for retired members?

Are you suggesting that Katie Hannon was not being honest in her reporting? Why do you think that might be?

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Do you think it more likely civilian members of the public with no connection to the Garda what so ever, for some reason, took it upon themselves to spread rumours about McCabe, with details they are very unlikely to have been privy to, (evidence going missing/allegations of abuse etc.)?

I think people, in general, don't need a reason to spread rumours. They definitely don't need a direction to. And I think people who handle correspondence from politicians are more likely to know about issues than retired Gardaí who drive for them.

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Not at all. Just not on the bandwagon.

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Katie Hannon was not being honest in her reporting? Why do you think that might be?

I'm suggesting that hearsay is very unreliable. Katie reported what pat said he was told by his driver who apparently heard it on the grapevine from people he no longer works with. That's a stupid level of Chinese whispers.

Hitman3000

Captain Obvious wrote:

Not at all. Just not on the bandwagon.

Which bandwagon would that be? There seems to be several although the wheels came off one when the false allegations against McCabe were dropped.

RustyNut

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I think people, in general, don't need a reason to spread rumours. They definitely don't need a direction to. And I think people who handle correspondence from politicians are more likely to know about issues than retired Gardaho drive for them.



Not at all. Just not on the bandwagon.



I'm suggesting that hearsay is very unreliable. Katie reported what pat said he was told by his driver who apparently heard it on the grapevine from people he no longer works with. That's a stupid level of Chinese whispers.

You would have to ask yourself who is more credible, Pat Rabbitte or an ex Garda. I know who my money would be on.

People should keep the findings of the Smithwick tribunal in mind when it come to evidence that might affect the reputation of AGS.

Judge Peter Smithwick has unleashed a blistering attack on the Garda - accusing it of prizing loyalty over honesty.

The tribunal chairman said he was depressed and disheartened that a culture still exists in the force where its reputation takes priority over everything else.

Captain Obvious

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Which bandwagon would that be? There seems to be several although the wheels came off one when the false allegations against McCabe were dropped.

The one where people who say anything negative about Gardaí are automatically deemed to be telling the truth.

RustyNut wrote: »

You would have to ask yourself who is more credible, Pat Rabbitte or an ex Garda. I know who my money would be on.

People should keep the findings of the Smithwick tribunal in mind when it come to evidence that might affect the reputation of AGS.

Do you know anything about the ex Garda is the fact he was a Garda enough for you to deem him dishonest?

Auguste Comte

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I'm suggesting that hearsay is very unreliable. Katie reported what pat said he was told by his driver who apparently heard it on the grapevine from people he no longer works with. That's a stupid level of Chinese whispers.

I take your point about the he said she said. As I said I'm keeping an open mind although I do take Katie Hannon as an honest broker.

Hitman3000

Captain Obvious wrote:

The one where people who say anything negative about Gardaí are automatically deemed to be telling the truth.

Not on that one myself, but it seems everyone is wrong except the former Commissioner. Honesty has been in short supply in recent times in AGS. The Jobstown trials demonstrated this, all ranks can be found wanting.

RustyNut

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Do you know anything about the ex Garda is the fact he was a Garda enough for you to deem him dishonest?

I only know what has been reported in the media and no it not just because he was a Garda that would make me inclined to believe Pat Rabbitte instead of him.

One of them is not telling the truth and taking everything that has come to light so far I would be inclined to think that Pat would have far less reason to be making things up than an ex Garda.

emo72

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Not at all. Just not on the bandwagon.

im listening to the evidence coming out of the tribunal and drawing my own conclusion. the evidence seems to be pointing one way only. that doesnt really put me on a bandwagon.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I think people, in general, don't need a reason to spread rumours. They definitely don't need a direction to. And I think people who handle correspondence from politicians are more likely to know about issues than retired Gardaí who drive for them.

Garda are people too.
Fair enough, for me it's more likely rumours concerning a Garda in his work would need start by people knowledgeable of his work and him for that matter.
The idea that it's more likely rumours began with politicians, government ministers, is not very likely nor credible.

Water John

Most people are not anti Gardai. Many, like me, have relatives in AGS both now and in the past.
Obvious stop throwing that old asachan. If you're not backing us, full hilt, you're against us.

Captain Obvious

Water John wrote: »

Most people are not anti Gardai. Many, like me, have relatives in AGS both now and in the past.
Obvious stop throwing that old asachan. If you're not backing us, full hilt, you're against us.

Well here we have an instance where an ex Garda was quoted by Pat Rabitte as having heard something on a grapevine whereas the man himself denies having said it yet there appears to be absolutely no question in many posters minds that Pat Rabbitte's account is accurate. That seems a pretty clear bias.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Well here we have an instance where an ex Garda was quoted by Pat Rabitte as having heard something on a grapevine whereas the man himself denies having said it yet there appears to be absolutely no question in many posters minds that Pat Rabbitte's account is accurate. That seems a pretty clear bias.

For my part, I'm speaking generally about a Garda rumour grapevine being in existence not naming who is or isn't partaking. It's very unlikely, to my mind, that there wouldn't be a Garda grapevine like any other organisation. Leinster house has a grapevine. Why not the Garda? Plus we've those rumours, Callinan seems to have been spreading anyway, about a Garda and his duties and knowledge of internal Garda matters.
As regards that particular driver of Rabbitte's, I'm 50/50. Rabbite has previous in truth telling matters.
To me the Garda is an organisation made up of people who are no better or worse than you or I and capable of the same things.

Water John

It's not about believing a particular retired Garda, over Rabbitte, alone. The pattern it fits is, let's say, obvious.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

For my part, I'm speaking generally about a Garda rumour grapevine being in existence not naming who is or isn't partaking. It's very unlikely, to my mind, that there wouldn't be a Garda grapevine like any other organisation. Leinster house has a grapevine. Why not the Garda? Plus we've those rumours, Callinan seems to have been spreading anyway, about a Garda and his duties and knowledge of internal Garda matters.
As regards that particular driver of Rabbitte's, I'm 50/50. Rabbite has previous in truth telling matters.
To me the Garda is an organisation made up of people who are no better or worse than you or I and capable of the same things.

But if you believe it came through the grapevine then does that not negate the responsibility of Callinan?

Water John wrote: »

It's not about believing a particular retired Garda, over Rabbitte, alone. The pattern it fits is, let's say, obvious.

Like I said, the mere fact he was a Garda is enough for some people to disregard his testimony.