Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Two conflicting accounts with no evidence to say who was right and who was wrong.



I think you overestimate how much rank and file Gardaí cared about McCabe telling tales. Members close to him were likely annoyed that he was telling tales on them specifically but in the grand scheme of things rank and file weren't really affected and have no love for the broken system they work in or the people who run it.

On the other hand, a child molesting Garda would be despised so that kind of rumour would have spread like wildfire and no organised campaign would have been needed. There would have been a lot of sources for this rumour too. Not only the original investigation conducted by Gardaí but also the follow up by TUSLA.

I see the top brass seem to have little loyalty to rank and file. I think it's possible to concede some Garda took part in a smear campaign, possibly unwittingly in some cases, against McCabe without tarring the entire force.

I personally do not believe the TULSA err was indeed an err. Who orchestrated it might never come out. You seem to be saying the rank and file don't have a grapevine, but if someone was accused of something heinous, they do. For a rumour to spread like wildfire, it would require a grapevine of sorts.

James Brown

Water John wrote: »

It looks like, any tittle tattle, got to Callinan's desk quickly. Also remember, the key resource and occupation of AGS is information/intelligence. That is their, stock in trade.

I would guess they went looking for dirt on McCabe.
The professional thing to do would have been to first investigate his claims and not the man. If you go in to report a crime, they don't start looking in your bins for unrelated dirt on you.

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I see the top brass seem to have little loyalty to rank and file. I think it's possible to concede some Garda took part in a smear campaign, possibly unwittingly in some cases, against McCabe without tarring the entire force.

I personally do not believe the TULSA err was indeed an err. Who orchestrated it might never come out. You seem to be saying the rank and file don't have a grapevine, but if someone was accused of something heinous, they do. For a rumour to spread like wildfire, it would require a grapevine of sorts.

I agree with you on that.
The top brass are all political appointees (something I have been giving out about here for years) and as such their allegience is with those who appoint them hence Callinan getting a meeting with Mc Guinness in a carpark. Also a celebrity solicitor getting his notes written for him by a commissioner. Judges and bigwigs getting their penalty points sorted. A cozy cartel.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with you on that.
The top brass are all political appointees (something I have been giving out about here for years) and as such their allegience is with those who appoint them hence Callinan getting a meeting with Mc Guinness in a carpark. Also a celebrity solicitor getting his notes written for him by a commissioner. Judges and bigwigs getting their penalty points sorted. A cozy cartel.

I would rather people from another country coming in to oversee the Garda. In fact if the MoJ is a mere figure head and the DoJ is in turmoil, maybe we need outsource those positions too?

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with you on that.
The top brass are all political appointees (something I have been giving out about here for years) and as such their allegience is with those who appoint them hence Callinan getting a meeting with Mc Guinness in a carpark. Also a celebrity solicitor getting his notes written for him by a commissioner. Judges and bigwigs getting their penalty points sorted. A cozy cartel.

It does sound like something you would expect from other Republic's (Burundi for example) but this is the republic of Ireland we're talking about.

Mr.Micro

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I would rather people from another country coming in to oversee the Garda. In fact if the MoJ is a mere figure head and the DoJ is in turmoil, maybe we need outsource those positions too?

Yes we do. Imagine an investigating team from another country trying to get answers.... Entrenched incompetence, corruption, negligence, dishonesty, and people appointed over the years with no merit, integrity or ability. What could possibly go wrong.

tayto lover

On a brighter note if not completely on topic.
My granddaughter had a visit from a young female garda yesterday. She got a fright but soon cheered-up when she was handed an envelope with a nice tidy sum of money.
My granddaughter had found the money near a bank a year ago and handed it to the young garda. Nobody had claimed it so it now belongs to her.

mattser

tayto lover wrote: »

On a brighter note if not completely on topic.
My granddaughter had a visit from a young female garda yesterday. She got a fright but soon cheered-up when she was handed an envelope with a nice tidy sum of money.
My granddaughter had found the money near a bank a year ago and handed it to the young garda. Nobody had claimed it so it now belongs to her.

Oh...the corruption, negligence, dishonesty of that. Poor child.:D:D

Seth Brundle

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yes we do. Imagine an investigating team from another country trying to get answers.... Entrenched incompetence, corruption, negligence, dishonesty, and people appointed over the years with no merit, integrity or ability. What could possibly go wrong.

The salary is €250k (plus some relocation benefits and possibly pension payments). For someone qualified for that role, it's crap money, especially when the global economy is improving.

In order for someone to come from abroad, they would need to uproot their family to a job where the government of the day could effectively force you out (as they have done previously). The succesful applicant will have to deal with all of the issues that you mention and all the while have politicians and the media sniping at you.

I'd be surprised if anyone went for the job!

According to the IT, closing date for applications was last week (April 12th)

Water John

We heard the same nonsense from banks, post 2008. The salary offered would not get anyone good for the job. Turns out, they were wrong.

Seth Brundle

Water John wrote: »

We heard the same nonsense from banks, post 2008. The salary offered would not get anyone good for the job. Turns out, they were wrong.

Maybe so.
However, there are many Enterprise CEO jobs out there offering well over €1m. Why would someone take on a crap filled role for a fraction of that?

Cream of the crop: Farmer’s son Scanlon lands job as CEO of Kerry Group (€4m pa)

Pay package of Glanbia CEO Siobhan Talbot breaks €2m mark in 2016

CRH chief’s pay hit record-breaking €10m in 2016

Kevin Toland set to earn more than €2m a year as Aryzta chief

Even the Shannon Airport chief’s earns more (€281k)


This is just for some enterprise CEOs in Ireland. Head to the UK or elsewhere and what kind of enterprise CEO salaries are on offer?

James Brown

I see your point but we do get sold, 'for that money we're lucky to have them' be it politicians, Garda or RTE 'personalities'.

Seth Brundle

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I see your point but we do get sold, 'for that money we're lucky to have them' be it politicians, Garda or RTE 'personalities'.

No. My view would be more: if they are competent enough for the job then they could be earning multiples of what they'd get doing the Garda gig. What is wrong with them that they don't go for the other roles?
My fear would be that we get another institutional lackey who doesn't rock the boat and makes no changes!

James Brown

kbannon wrote: »

No. My view would be more: if they are competent enough for the job then they could be earning multiples of what they'd get doing the Garda gig. What is wrong with them that they don't go for the other roles?
My fear would be that we get another institutional lackey who doesn't rock the boat and makes no changes!

A complete outsider is more likely to be non-crony within the organisation. Also, we are talking about replacing Garda level people not multinational CEO's. There would be many fine people with a good record happy to take up such a challenge and would certainly do their career no harm, provided they stayed straight.
Looking at that verbal, no paper trail contract alone, we need a half decent administrator even.

Captain Obvious

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yes we do. Imagine an investigating team from another country trying to get answers.... Entrenched incompetence, corruption, negligence, dishonesty, and people appointed over the years with no merit, integrity or ability. What could possibly go wrong.

Doesn't GSOC have people from outside? There was definitely a South African fella brought in as one of the first investigators.

RustyNut

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Doesn't GSOC have people from outside? There was definitely a South African fella brought in as one of the first investigators.

Are there still Guards working there? I'm sure it was decided long ago that Guards investigating Guards was a bad idea.

"The Garda Ombudsman said two superintendents currently work in their offices on secondment.

Ms O'Loan said she believed relationships and roles should be more concrete.

"As I understand it, there are currently Garda Síochána officers working in the office of the Garda Ombudsman. To me that's totally inappropriate," she said, recommending that measures be taken to "define limits and boundaries"

Captain Obvious

RustyNut wrote: »

Are there still Guards working there? I'm sure it was decided long ago that Guards investigating Guards was a bad idea.

Not really sure what your point is.

Seth Brundle

Matt Barrett wrote: »

A complete outsider is more likely to be non-crony within the organisation. Also, we are talking about replacing Garda level people not multinational CEO's. There would be many fine people with a good record happy to take up such a challenge and would certainly do their career no harm, provided they stayed straight.
Looking at that verbal, no paper trail contract alone, we need a half decent administrator even.

For someone who has experience in overseeing an organisation of that size with a similar budget requires experience. For the garda gig the new boss will have to arrange massive change internally.
I don't believe there is anyone outside of an enterprise company that could do this. The only public sector bosses that may be able to do this are Dept heads and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them!

James Brown

kbannon wrote: »

For someone who has experience in overseeing an organisation of that size with a similar budget requires experience. For the garda gig the new boss will have to arrange massive change internally.
I don't believe there is anyone outside of an enterprise company that could do this. The only public sector bosses that may be able to do this are Dept heads and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them!

I agree. My point is look at what you are replacing; verbal state contracts, funded by the tax payer. People should be investigated, in the least fired for that. Then there's protecting the state from crony insiders and questionable financials.
We can find better than that graduating from any business school.
There are many qualified people, preferably from outside the state, capable. The main point is something needs doing. staying as is, isn't fair to the people.

Mr.Micro

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I agree. My point is look at what you are replacing; verbal state contracts, funded by the tax payer. People should be investigated, in the least fired for that. Then there's protecting the state from crony insiders and questionable financials.
We can find better than that graduating from any business school.
There are many qualified people, preferably from outside the state, capable. The main point is something needs doing. staying as is, isn't fair to the people.

No it's not fair at all, not even just and equitable, the very basis of Law. Like everything in Ireland it may never be fixed.

tayto lover

Bertie walked out of an interview on German tv after being asked about the Mahon Tribunal.
What punishment did he suffer as a result of that Tribunal?

Seth Brundle

tayto lover wrote: »

Bertie walked out of an interview on German tv after being asked about the Mahon Tribunal.
What punishment did he suffer as a result of that Tribunal?

A tribunal doesn't punish. It finds out details.
Revenue won't disclose if he made a payment or ever became tax compliant. There probably was nothing that would stand up in court. What could have been been?

tayto lover

kbannon wrote: »

A tribunal doesn't punish. It finds out details.
Revenue won't disclose if he made a payment or ever became tax compliant. There probably was nothing that would stand up in court. What could have been been?

The Tribunal found --

Key Findings:

Corruption affected 'every level of Irish political life'

Former taoiseach Bertie Ahern failed to "truthfully" explain source of money

Tribunal rejects Ahern's evidence of "dig-outs"

Former EU Commissioner Pádraig Flynn "wrongly and corruptly" sought donation from Tom Gilmartin

Liam Lawlor accepted 'inappropriate and corrupt payments' from Arlington PLC

Liam Lawlor's involvement with landowners/developers rendered him "hopelessly compromised"

Owen O'Callaghan paid £1.8m to Frank Dunlop over 10 years

Former Fianna Fáil TD GV Wright received a IR£5,000 "corrupt" payment from Christopher Jones


As far as i'm aware none of the above suffered as a result of the findings.

Seth Brundle

tayto lover wrote: »

The Tribunal found --

Key Findings:

Corruption affected 'every level of Irish political life'

Former taoiseach Bertie Ahern failed to "truthfully" explain source of money

Tribunal rejects Ahern's evidence of "dig-outs"

Former EU Commissioner Pádraig Flynn "wrongly and corruptly" sought donation from Tom Gilmartin

Liam Lawlor accepted 'inappropriate and corrupt payments' from Arlington PLC

Liam Lawlor's involvement with landowners/developers rendered him "hopelessly compromised"

Owen O'Callaghan paid £1.8m to Frank Dunlop over 10 years

Former Fianna Fáil TD GV Wright received a IR£5,000 "corrupt" payment from Christopher Jones


As far as i'm aware none of the above suffered as a result of the findings.

I understand but in order for jail then it has to be proven in court. Would the evidence stand up in a criminal court?
Do we know if Revenue made a claim?

tayto lover

kbannon wrote: »

I understand but in order for jail then it has to be proven in court. Would the evidence stand up in a criminal court?
Do we know if Revenue made a claim?

I don't know?
My point is that Tribunals are a waste of time and money.

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know?
My point is that Tribunals are a waste of time and money.

I don't think Maurice McCabe would have the same mind frame tbh, for him, he wants to have the country be made aware as to what shenanigans can go on from sinister shadows when you try and do the right thing.

The fact that it appears the police commisoner no less seems to have been going around and spreading the most repulsive false accusations imaginable about another member of the force, knowing them to be false should have every right person in the country worried.

It could happen to anyone of us who dared to speak out.

Mr.Micro

tayto lover wrote: »

Bertie walked out of an interview on German tv after being asked about the Mahon Tribunal.
What punishment did he suffer as a result of that Tribunal?

That was gold... He cleared his name. Lol. Narcissism

Water John

There went any notion of running for President.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I don't think Maurice McCabe would have the same mind frame tbh, for him, he wants to have the country be made aware as to what shenanigans can go on from sinister shadows when you try and do the right thing.

The fact that it appears the police commisoner no less seems to have been going around and spreading the most repulsive false accusations imaginable about another member of the force, knowing them to be false should have every right person in the country worried.

It could happen to anyone of us who dared to speak out.

"knowing them to be false"?

Have you any evidence about this? Nothing we have heard to date at the Tribunal suggests that the Commissioner knew these accusations were false.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

"knowing them to be false"?

Have you any evidence about this? Nothing we have heard to date at the Tribunal suggests that the Commissioner knew these accusations were false.

If he didn't know that the allegations had been dismissed, then that takes us back to his suitability to the job her held.

Check the timelines.