Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Have you any evidence about this? Nothing we have heard to date at the Tribunal suggests that the Commissioner knew these accusations were false.

Is being obtuse a prerequisite or do you find it fun?

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Is being obtuse a prerequisite or do you find it fun?

I don't understand your post. Could you explain more clearly what you are asking me?

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't understand your post. Could you explain more clearly what you are asking me?

You were asking how the commisoner of AGS knew the allegations are were false, the dpp dismissed the allegations.

Are you suggesting that no-one told him about that?

Apart from that it was alleged by different people that Callinan told them, in a factual manner that McCabe "fiddled with kids".

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You were asking how the commisoner of AGS knew the allegations are were false, the dpp dismissed the allegations.

The DPP not prosecuting doesn't make an allegation false. I haven't seen anything in the evidence given so far to justify the claim that the commissioner knowingly spread false allegations as claimed. Is that not what the tribunal is going to decide?

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

The DPP not prosecuting doesn't make an allegation false. I haven't seen anything in the evidence given so far to justify the claim that the commissioner knowingly spread false allegations as claimed. Is that not what the tribunal is going to decide?

You are glossing over / selectively quoting what was originally posted.

Apart from that it was alleged by different people that Callinan told them, in a factual manner that McCabe "fiddled with kids".

Unless he was convicted of such a crime, Callinan was 110% wrong to tell people that he did.

Simple as that.

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You are glossing over / selectively quoting what was originally posted.




Unless he was convicted of such a crime, Callinan was 110% wrong to tell people that he did.

Simple as that.

That's not what was said though. What was said was that he knowingly gave false information. Is there any evidence he knew the allegations were false when he told people about them?

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's not what was said though. What was said was that he knowingly gave false information. Is there any evidence he knew the allegations were false when he told people about them?

John McGuinness told the tribunal that Callinan told him directly that McCabe fiddled with kids, not that there was allegations (that the dpp dismissed) that he fiddled with kids..

Bit of a difference.

Seth Brundle

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's not what was said though. What was said was that he knowingly gave false information. Is there any evidence he knew the allegations were false when he told people about them?

As this hasn't been said and he will obviously deny it, the tribunal will try and find this out. It should also try to see if he verified the claims he was making about one member of "his" force before he discussed the vile allegations with third parties. All it should have taken to find out the truth to the allegations really is one phone call.

Mr.Micro

kbannon wrote: »

As this hasn't been said and he will obviously deny it, the tribunal will try and find this out. It should also try to see if he verified the claims he was making about one member of "his" force before he discussed the vile allegations with third parties. All it should have taken to find out the truth to the allegations really is one phone call.

Yes indeed, if one was going to peddle such a damaging allegation to other parties, then other sources of corroboration were needed to confirm. Clearly this was not done.

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

John McGuinness told the tribunal that Callinan told him directly that McCabe fiddled with kids, not that there was allegations (that the dpp dismissed) that he fiddled with kids..

Bit of a difference.

Right, but the claim was that he told McGuinness that when he knew it to be false. So for about the fourth time I am asking, where is the evidence he knew the allegations where false as opposed to simply unproven?

kbannon wrote: »

As this hasn't been said and he will obviously deny it, the tribunal will try and find this out. It should also try to see if he verified the claims he was making about one member of "his" force before he discussed the vile allegations with third parties. All it should have taken to find out the truth to the allegations really is one phone call.

But all he needs do is point to the statement of complaint from the victim as reasonable evidence for his belief.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Right, but the claim was that he told McGuinness that when he knew it to be false. So for about the fourth time I am asking, where is the evidence he knew the allegations where false as opposed to simply unproven?

I will say it again, McGuinness told the tribunal that Callinan told him that "McCabe fiddled with kids"

We can go around on this all day, but that accusation was made while Callinan knew it not to be factually correct.

He didn't tell McGuinness that there was allegations about McCabe that the dpp dismissed, which would have been factually correct.

If Callinan did tell McGuinness what McGuinness alleged, then Callinan did indeed make a false accusation against McCabe.

This is straight forward stuff.

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I will say it again, McGuinness told the tribunal that Callinan told him that "McCabe fiddled with kids"

We can go around on this all day, but that accusation was made while Callinan knew it not to be factually correct.

He didn't tell McGuinness that there was allegations about McCabe that the dpp dismissed, which would have been factually correct.

If Callinan did tell McGuinness what McGuinness alleged, then Callinan did indeed make a false accusation against McCabe.

This is straight forward stuff.

It is straight forward, which is why I'm surprised you not only got it wrong but that you keep doubling down on it. To the best of my knowledge, there has been no evidence presented that Callinan knew the allegations against McCabe were false when he spread them.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It is straight forward, which is why I'm surprised you not only got it wrong but that you keep doubling down on it. To the best of my knowledge, there has been no evidence presented that Callinan knew the allegations against McCabe were false when he spread them.

What is it you don't get here?

Callinan didn't tell McGuinness that there was allegations about McCabe, McGuinness alleged that Callinan told him:

However, the serving garda chief allegedly said “the other fella fiddles with kids. And this is the type of fuccing headbangers I’m dealing with.”

So again, if Callinan told McGuinness that McCabe was a paedophile, well unless McCabe was convicted of same, it was wrong and false to label him as such.

He did not tell McGuinness McCabe was alleged to have abused children, and the dpp dismissed it.

I don't know how that makes me wrong, or to be doubling down on anything.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Right, but the claim was that he told McGuinness that when he knew it to be false. So for about the fourth time I am asking, where is the evidence he knew the allegations where false as opposed to simply unproven?
.....

He certainly had no proof it was true, therefore he was passing on unsubstantiated slurs about a fellow Garda. At best he was peddling malicious gossip as truth and was aware it had not been proven. That's a lie, surely? Not a great testimony to the character of a Garda Commissioner or member of society.

Muahahaha

Seems Noirin spent more time on the phone to certain crime journalists than actually doing her job
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/04/23/561810/

In yesterday’s Sunday Business Post…

Francesca Comyn reported:

“Former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan claims whistleblower David Taylor blamed Nóirín O’Sullivan for having him arrested and said he would “bring her down” because of what she had done to him.

“Callinan has made the claim in a statement to the Disclosures Tribunal. He alleges that after he retired as head of the force in May 2014, Supt Taylor visited him at home on several occasions and expressed anger and disappointment that O’Sullivan, who was commissioner at the time, transferred him from the Garda press office to the traffic division.

“…Billing records from her [former Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan’s] mobile phone will show numerous contacts between her and well-known crime and security journalists between July 2012 and May 2014 when she was deputy commissioner.

“She made 33 phone calls to well-known reporter Paul Williams including conversations lasting up to 20 minutes. The tribunal is expected to ask her to explain ten contacts made with Williams in February, March and April 2014.

“In March that year, Williams wrote two articles after interviewing Ms D, the daughter of the garda who made the sexual allegation against McCabe in 2006, later found by the DPP to be groundless.

“…The former commissioner’s phone records for the same time period show further media contacts. Over the 23-month period, she called RTɒs crime correspondent Paul Reynolds 20 times and Tom Brady, security editor with the Irish Independent, 74 times.”

Lets not also forget that Paul Williams used Noirin OSullivans son as the videographer when he interviewed Mrs.D. All very cosy between the Gardai and the media it seems...

On top of this we have ex-Sindo editor Anne Harris coming out saying rumours about McCabe were certainly present in the newspaper

From the first instance that the Sunday Independent began to report on these matters, certain journalists came to my office to warn me off Sergeant McCabe.

“I was given varying accounts of an alleged case of child sex abuse by him, which was apparently being investigated.

“This was repeated several times by a very reputable journalist, one who had shown great courage in exposing incidents of corruption and terrorism. I made enquiries and was satisfied that the matter had been investigated by the DPP, and the complaint found to be without grounds.

“The Sunday Independent continued to report on Sergeant McCabe’s concerns and the consequent treatment of him.

“In 2013, the allegation that Sergeant McCabe as a “paedophile” was stated in my office by senior executive from the wider “Group” editorial hierarchy of Independent Newspapers.

“I am certain that a whispering smear campaign was being conducted and that the media were being used.

“The pressure on me was less about publishing the sex abuse allegation – it would have been difficult within the laws of libel – but had the clear purpose of discrediting him, and therefore censoring the issues he was raising.”

So who were these "certain journalists" Anne Harris is speaking of that were discrediting Maurice McCabe in her office in the Indo? Could it possibly be Paul Williams and Tom Brady who had 94 telephone conversations with Noirin OSullivan over the previous 23 months?

And to think there are people on this thread who think OSullivan is clean :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Before this gets out of hand, I think in previous threads we have used the rule that works quite well which is that there is a difference between making a statement that turns out not to be correct on the one hand, and telling a deliberate lie on the other hand.

If people can demonstrate, by using reliable sources etc, that someone deliberately lied, mislead or made a false allegation, then that is fine.

But if its the case that the evidence only discloses that someone was said which turns out to be was incorrect or which cannot be supported, then its best to avoid language such as "lying" or "false accusation" and stick to stating that they were incorrect or could not substantiate their claim.

EDIT: For clarity, I just want to point out that by all means the issue of whether it was appropriate to make the allegations can be discussed and there is no problem with that, but if we can avoid the thread getting too much into semantics that would be great.

James Brown

Muahahaha wrote: »

Seems Noirin spent more time on the phone to certain crime journalists than actually doing her job
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/04/23/561810/


Lets not also forget that Paul Williams used Noirin OSullivans son as the videographer when he interviewed Mrs.D. All very cosy between the Gardai and the media it seems...

On top of this we have ex-Sindo editor Anne Harris coming out saying rumours about McCabe were certainly present in the newspaper



So who were these "certain journalists" Anne Harris is speaking of that were discrediting Maurice McCabe in her office in the Indo? Could it possibly be Paul Williams and Tom Brady who had 94 telephone conversations with Noirin OSullivan over the previous 23 months?

And to think there are people on this thread who think OSullivan is clean :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It's a terrible state of affairs that you might not know something is going on in your own organisation, but you spend an inordinate amount of time discussing, in the least elements pertaining to, the issue with journalists.

It's hard not to read Callinan's passing off as fact the malicious gossip of claims he knew were unproven and O'Sullivan with the above and not suspect a smear campaign against one of their own.

I think the rank and file may benefit with all this coming out.

McMurphy

Did anyone else know the journalist mentioned in the article was Paul Williams before they actually read on down to where it actually named him?

Complete snake of a man.

Water John

Williams and Reynolds have lost all credibility as serious and trusted journalists. Brady I don't know about as I don't buy the Indo.

Odhinn

Muahahaha wrote: »

............


So who were these "certain journalists" Anne Harris is speaking of that were discrediting Maurice McCabe in her office in the Indo? Could it possibly be Paul Williams and Tom Brady who had 94 telephone conversations with Noirin OSullivan over the previous 23 months?

And to think there are people on this thread who think OSullivan is clean :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Presumably thats just on the phones that have been found.......?

Mr.Micro

Water John wrote: »

Williams and Reynolds have lost all credibility as serious and trusted journalists. Brady I don't know about as I don't buy the Indo.

Talk about embedded ..... So much so they have no perspective or integrity.

FelchWivMe

Williams isn't even a journalist. He's not qualified in anything journalism related.

He is a "crime writer".

Water John

Fact or Fiction?

Ak84

So Callinan did knowingly make false accusations against McCabe.
Because he said " kids".
Not "a" kid as the original complaint was about.

FelchWivMe

i wouldn't be surprised if callinan had weird porn all over his personal computer

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's a terrible state of affairs that you might not know something is going on in your own organisation, but you spend an inordinate amount of time discussing, in the least elements pertaining to, the issue with journalists.

It's hard not to read Callinan's passing off as fact the malicious gossip of claims he knew were unproven and O'Sullivan with the above and not suspect a smear campaign against one of their own.

I think the rank and file may benefit with all this coming out.

Every question that's raised about both former commissioners serves to benefit those others that have been tarred with that brush over the years. It's a weight slowly lifted off their shoulders, a light finally showing at the end of the tunnel.

RustyNut

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's not what was said though. What was said was that he knowingly gave false information. Is there any evidence he knew the allegations were false when he told people about them?

If he knew about some mule giving Wallace a finger wagging about using his phone while driving then i think it is a reasonable assumption that he knew that The DPP ruled out a prosecution in the Miss D case in 2007, saying there was no evidence an offence had been committed.

Captain Obvious

RustyNut wrote: »

If he knew about some mule giving Wallace a finger wagging about using his phone while driving then i think it is a reasonable assumption that he knew that The DPP ruled out a prosecution in the Miss D case in 2007, saying there was no evidence an offence had been committed.

Didn't the victim give a statement?

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Didn't the victim give a statement?

What's your take on the whole affair? Do you think things coming out and being addressed will fare better for rank and file members having to work in that environment or should the Garda close ranks and hope it blows over?

Auguste Comte

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Didn't the victim give a statement?

Alleged victim?