Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

James Brown

Yes. Shown to have willfully neglected to carry out their remit. For politicians, it would need be wilfully doing something (like the behaviour of Naughton and Noonan, up for debate of course) outside of their remit which is shown to work against the public interest or the remit of their office.
Such as Callinan and Taylor but not Fitzgerald, it wouldn't cover genuine gross incompetence.

blanch152

blackwhite wrote: »

I probably should have phrased it better. It should be applied in cases of knowingly breaching their duties/terms of employment, or in cases where they were willfully negligent (i.e. they deliberately ignored strong evidence of the negative consequences of an action/decision, or deliberately took an option that was less favourable to the State in order to further personal gain, etc.).


For employees, if they can be shown to have been knowingly in breach of their contract, or willfully negligent then I don't see why whey shouldn't be pursued personally. As above, simple incompetence wouldn't cut it - you'd need to be able to show the prior knowledge or intent element as well.

I'd say the same for politicians (with the exception that they don't have a "contract" to be in breach of). If they can be shown to have been willfully negligent, then they should be pursued for the costs they've caused the State to have to bear.

The problem comes to proving the willful part of willful negligence. Unless there's a "smoking gun" á la Lowry then it can be hard to prove malfeasance as opposed to simply being out of their depth.

It becomes easier to prove when someone has acted contrary to their contracts - easy to prove someone knew (or should know) what the terms of their employment are.

Let me think about this.

Imagine you are a shop assistant and you open the cash register for someone who asks for change (only supposed to open it for purchases so you are wilfully negligent) and the person asking reaches over and grabs money and runs out the door. Having been wilfully negligent, should you be fired?

Seth Brundle

blanch152 wrote: »

Let me think about this.

Imagine you are a shop assistant and you open the cash register for someone who asks for change (only supposed to open it for purchases so you are wilfully negligent) and the person asking reaches over and grabs money and runs out the door. Having been wilfully negligent, should you be fired?

You are mixing two different scenarios.
Taylor orchestrated a smear campaign against a colleague in order to discredit him and his allegations of corruption and illegality going on within the force. This was bad enough.
However, during the inquiry into same, Taylor then was “deceitful”, had “lied” to the Tribunal and had given “daft evidence”.
It is nothing like a customer reaching in and grabbing money out of a till!

blanch152

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You are mixing two different scenarios.
Taylor orchestrated a smear campaign against a colleague in order to discredit him and his allegations of corruption and illegality going on within the force. This was bad enough.
However, during the inquiry into same, Taylor then was “deceitful”, had “lied” to the Tribunal and had given “daft evidence”.
It is nothing like a customer reaching in and grabbing money out of a till!

The argument is being made that wilful negligence (let's leave aside how it would be proved) should result in dismissal and withholding of pension. I am applying that principle more widely than Gardai.

There are teachers convicted of vile crimes who still get pensions.

James Brown

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You are mixing two different scenarios.
Taylor orchestrated a smear campaign against a colleague in order to discredit him and his allegations of corruption and illegality going on within the force. This was bad enough.
However, during the inquiry into same, Taylor then was “deceitful”, had “lied” to the Tribunal and had given “daft evidence”.
It is nothing like a customer reaching in and grabbing money out of a till!

Maybe if you used shop resources to spread rumours that someone grabbed out of the till and you're the security guard.

blackwhite

blanch152 wrote: »

Let me think about this.

Imagine you are a shop assistant and you open the cash register for someone who asks for change (only supposed to open it for purchases so you are wilfully negligent) and the person asking reaches over and grabs money and runs out the door. Having been wilfully negligent, should you be fired?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum :rolleyes:


The different between wilfull negligence and an innocent mistake seems to have flown over your head a bit there.

Are you trying to argue that the above is the same thing as abusing your position to spread malicious rumours (that you know to be false) that someone is a child abuser, and opening your employer to the possibility of legal action from the person that you have defamed?

blackwhite

blanch152 wrote: »

The argument is being made that wilful negligence (let's leave aside how it would be proved) should result in dismissal and withholding of pension. I am applying that principle more widely than Gardai.

There are teachers convicted of vile crimes who still get pensions.

Where did I claim that?

I expressly stated that it's nigh on impossible to withhold any benefits that have accrued over their period of service.


Taking legal action to recover costs/damages that somebody has caused their employer to incurr by way of either willful negligence, or knowingly breaching their terms of employement is very different.

James Brown

This is brought to the fore by Callinan and Taylor's actions, the discussion is should such actions be penalised, be it pension or other form? And it wouldn't just pertain to Garda. In this instance it does of course. It goes back to accountability.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

This is brought to the fore by Callinan and Taylor's actions, the discussion is should such actions be penalised, be it pension or other form? And it wouldn't just pertain to Garda. In this instance it does of course. It goes back to accountability.

But why should they be punished above and beyond what any other person in the state would be?

blanch152

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But why should they be punished above and beyond what any other person in the state would be?

It is a bewildering argument. If a CEO of a major company is wilfully negligent, they give him a big package and shuffle him off. But public servants must be hung, drawn and quartered while the pension they have worked for and earned over 40 years must be taken away, even if the mistake they are accused of (and not even proven) only took up a tiny proportion of that 40 years.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But why should they be punished above and beyond what any other person in the state would be?

They shouldn't, currently. Opening up the discussion as to how they should be considering their actions and position. Garda Commissioner and salesman in Harvey Norman aren't really comparable.

blackwhite

blanch152 wrote: »

It is a bewildering argument. If a CEO of a major company is wilfully negligent, they give him a big package and shuffle him off. But public servants must be hung, drawn and quartered while the pension they have worked for and earned over 40 years must be taken away, even if the mistake they are accused of (and not even proven) only took up a tiny proportion of that 40 years.

If a CEO is willfully negligent, they'll find themselves open to being sued personally by both the company and the shareholders (if publicly listed).

When it comes to CEO, they tend to be directors also, and there's specific legislation around directors having personal liability if they are in willful breach of their duties (and in certain circumstances the willful element isn't even necessary :eek:).

That it only rarely happens is a reflection more that the cost of pursuing them will be higher than any likely recovery (which would also rule out most instances of the State suing former employees also), but it doesn't mean that it is legally possible, or that it doesn't happen in some rare instances.


It's much more common in the USA, but it's similar common law principles that apply here as well.
General principles are:
- Person has to be deemed "highly skilled/qualified"
- knowingly commits an act of intentional wrongdoing (i.e. willful negligence, theft or fraud)


A more high profile recent one was where Tesla sued a former employee for disclosing trade practices to competitors earlier this year.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They shouldn't, currently. Opening up the discussion as to how they should be considering their actions and position. Garda Commissioner and salesman in Harvey Norman aren't really comparable.

No it's more comparable to the CEO and there are the same remedies available.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

No it's more comparable to the CEO and there are the same remedies available.

I would differentiate between those who are employed by the state and the taxpayer, misusing their position and let's say, insider trading or divulging company secrets to a competitor. The only difference being the later is more easily open to legal action.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I would differentiate between those who are employed by the state and the taxpayer, misusing their position and let's say, insider trading or divulging company secrets to a competitor. The only difference being the later is more easily open to legal action.

There are already additional remedies available for people in public office though aren't there? And additional ones for Gardaí.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I would differentiate between those who are employed by the state and the taxpayer, misusing their position and let's say, insider trading or divulging company secrets to a competitor. The only difference being the later is more easily open to legal action.

There are corruption laws in place for any public servant misusing their position.

What more are you proposing? Do you believe there should be special laws to punish public servants? What about public flogging of public servants, would you support that?

The current public service is the most risk-averse public service this country has seen. Why? Because of the witch-hunting, the second guessing, the PAC, etc. It is now better not to take a decision than to take a decision because some gob****e TD, usually from FF or one of the protest parties will have something to say about it. Then, those same gob****es will propose building tens of thousands of houses in a year as if procurement policy didn't ever apply.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

There are already additional remedies available for people in public office though aren't there? And additional ones for Gardaí.

Are there? Not being smart, I'm unaware. How likely is it Callinan and Taylor will be held to account?

blackwhite

blanch152 wrote: »

There are corruption laws in place for any public servant misusing their position.

What more are you proposing? Do you believe there should be special laws to punish public servants? What about public flogging of public servants, would you support that?

The current public service is the most risk-averse public service this country has seen. Why? Because of the witch-hunting, the second guessing, the PAC, etc. It is now better not to take a decision than to take a decision because some gob****e TD, usually from FF or one of the protest parties will have something to say about it. Then, those same gob****es will propose building tens of thousands of houses in a year as if procurement policy didn't ever apply.

To be fair Blanch, there’s one hell of a difference between a good faith mistake, or bad judgement call, and the sort of malicious stuff that it appears Taylor and Callinan engaged in.

I’d agree with you about the problems with every “Captain Hindsight” riding in on a high horse to second guess good-faith decisions for political gain - but when it comes to the most serious breaches, like what it appears that this case involves, then the “good-faith” defence is firmly off the table.

Edward M

blanch152 wrote: »

Callinan and Taylor haven't been convicted of any crime, yet there is a mob out there wanting to strip them of their pensions. Where does this lead?

A number of public servants have been convicted of rape and sexual abuse. Why aren't their pensions taken off them and given to their victims?

What about burglars? Should any convicted burglar be forced to give up any payment from the State - State pension, social welfare, education grant etc. - as reparations for his victims?

The concept of people paying in personal financial terms for their wrongdoing is not one that is widely accepted or widely practiced within the State or within the judicial system. Until it is, selecting one group - gardai or Ministers - and making them pay is unfair.

Neither has or had been Maurice McCabe, yet there were certainly rumors to the contrary put out there.
There were many more critical of him before this enquiry, the usual crew with the move on, nothing to see here.
This enquiry came about only because of MMCs having to fight tooth and nail to preserve his own good name more than any feeling or need to seek out what what Callinan and Taylor were up to.
Loads of people questioned McCabes motives more than anything else in this whole sad affair, especially after the malicious and vicious rumors surfaced.
As far as I'd be concerned and my way of thinking on it would be that there should be a case of defamation brought by the DPP against Callinan and Taylor now if that's possible.

Captain Obvious

Edward M wrote: »

Neither has or had been Maurice McCabe, yet there were certainly rumors to the contrary put out there.
There were many more critical of him before this enquiry, the usual crew with the move on, nothing to see here.
This enquiry came about only because of MMCs having to fight tooth and nail to preserve his own good name more than any feeling or need to seek out what what Callinan and Taylor were up to.
Loads of people questioned McCabes motives more than anything else in this whole sad affair, especially after the malicious and vicious rumors surfaced.
As far as I'd be concerned and my way of thinking on it would be that there should be a case of defamation brought by the DPP against Callinan and Taylor now if that's possible.

You want the DPP to bring a civil case against a former commissioner on behalf of a citizen?

Edward M

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You want the DPP to bring a civil case against a former commissioner on behalf of a citizen?

Not what I said or asked.
Is malicious defamation of character not a criminal offence?
If its not it should be!

James Brown

If I were a member of the Garda I would like to see some kind of action. It would give me confidence in the organisation I work for. The old boys network only works if you're one of the old boys or keeping your head down.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If I were a member of the Garda I would like to see some kind of action. It would give me confidence in the organisation I work for. The old boys network only works if you're one of the old boys or keeping your head down.

You have got it the wrong way round.

Seizing of pensions is completely the wrong way to motivate public servants.

Robert McGrath

Edward M wrote: »

Not what I said or asked.
Is malicious defamation of character not a criminal offence?
If its not it should be!

You should bear in mind the higher burden of proof in criminal cases. No guarantee such a case would be successful here

blanch152

Edward M wrote: »

Not what I said or asked.
Is malicious defamation of character not a criminal offence?
If its not it should be!

https://www.lawyer.ie/defamation/

"The “honest opinion” defence is available for honestly-held opinions as long as—

at the time of publication, the defendant believed in the truth of the opinion (or thought that its author believed it to be true),
the opinion was based on proven (or honestly believed) allegations of fact that were known to those to whom the statement was published, or
the opinion was based on proven (or reasonably likely) allegations of fact which were privileged and the opinion related to a matter of public interest.2

Questions that would need to be considered here is whether Callinan or Taylor's opinion was based on the Tusla report, whether either of them were relying on what they were told by the other etc.

So, if, and it is a big if, Callinan made his remarks to McGuinness et al because of a honest opinion based on a reading of the Tusla Report, and he uses the honest opinion defence, he may not have defamed McCabe. The problem for the State would then lie with the Tusla Report and that organisation. If you see above, if the courts deemed the issue to be a "matter of public interest", the fact that the Tusla Report was confidential and privileged would still not be enough to condemn Callinan. This isn't a straightforward defamation case.

Edward M

Garda McCabe to retire.
I hope his legacy won't be forgotten and we get the fair and transparent force he wanted us to have.
Enjoy your retirement Garda, your superiors made your last years in the job a living hell, but you got vindication in the end.
I hope we have more like him in there!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-whistleblower-maurice-mccabe-to-retire-1.3681363?mode=amp

Tell me how

Matt Barrett wrote:

If I were a member of the Garda I would like to see some kind of action. It would give me confidence in the organisation I work for. The old boys network only works if you're one of the old boys or keeping your head down.

Reading Michael Clifford's book, it seemed to me the majority of Gardai were comfortable with ostracising McCabe.

Edward M wrote:

Garda McCabe to retire. I hope his legacy won't be forgotten and we get the fair and transparent force he wanted us to have. Enjoy your retirement Garda, your superiors made your last years in the job a living hell, but you got vindication in the end. I hope we have more like him in there!

I expect there will be a training building or recognition award named after McCabe at some point in the future. No consolation for the stress he must have endured. I wouldn't be surprised if he felt somewhat vindicated but also abandoned and violated.

Floppybits

I'd say the head gardai are breathing a sigh of relief that McCabe is retiring. After his treatment i don't think we will see another Garda whistleblower again.

I wonder if Harris had a word to hasten his retirement. Looks like harris is clearing house.

Tell me how

Floppybits wrote: »

I'd say the head gardai are breathing a sigh of relief that McCabe is retiring. After his treatment i don't think we will see another Garda whistleblower again.

I wonder if Harris had a word to hasten his retirement. Looks like harris is clearing house.

I'd say he knows better than trying to force out someone who has seen 2 commissioners, 2 ministers for justice and a PR official out the door in front of him...

Harris does seem to be cleaning house, don't think he wants McCabe to go at any cost as such. Maybe he does to draw a line under it and McCabe feels he has fought his fight and at least is walking away.

Water John

I presume it as much to do with him reaching full pension age. Wish him and his family the best.

blanch152

Floppybits wrote: »

I'd say the head gardai are breathing a sigh of relief that McCabe is retiring. After his treatment i don't think we will see another Garda whistleblower again.

I wonder if Harris had a word to hasten his retirement. Looks like harris is clearing house.

I think that Garda Harrison and Supt. Taylor have created more problems for future Garda whistleblowers by being exposed as liars.

Floppybits

blanch152 wrote: »

Floppybits wrote: »

I'd say the head gardai are breathing a sigh of relief that McCabe is retiring. After his treatment i don't think we will see another Garda whistleblower again.

I wonder if Harris had a word to hasten his retirement. Looks like harris is clearing house.

I think that Garda Harrison and Supt. Taylor have created more problems for future Garda whistleblowers by being exposed as liars.

I think the treatment of McCabe by ordinary Gardai, Garda Management and even the lack of support from the Garda unions will make other potential whistleblowers think twice before putting their heads above the parapet.  So many of the people involved in the McCabe debacle have walked away scot free, just look at the 2 guards who attempted to stitch him up when they interviewed him and only for McCabe recording the meeting they would have been successful in the stitch up.  Nothing has ever happened those Gardai, they should have been sacked for what they attempted to do.

James Brown

When the Commissioner is found to act in such a low abhorrent manner, one can only wonder how many came up through the ranks in the knowledge of Callinans character. What are the incidences we never heard about?

blanch152

Floppybits wrote: »

I think the treatment of McCabe by ordinary Gardai, Garda Management and even the lack of support from the Garda unions will make other potential whistleblowers think twice before putting their heads above the parapet.  So many of the people involved in the McCabe debacle have walked away scot free, just look at the 2 guards who attempted to stitch him up when they interviewed him and only for McCabe recording the meeting they would have been successful in the stitch up.  Nothing has ever happened those Gardai, they should have been sacked for what they attempted to do.

Remind me, what finding did O'Higgins or Charleton make against those 2 guards?

KaneToad

blanch152 wrote: »

Remind me, what finding did O'Higgins or Charleton make against those 2 guards?

Those two guards are currently taking libel actions against several media oulets including RTe...

Floppybits

KaneToad wrote: »

Those two guards are currently taking libel actions against several media oulets including RTe...

Why is that? Surely they don't have a case

Water John

Brass neck

blanch152

Floppybits wrote: »

Why is that? Surely they don't have a case

As I asked, can you remind me what the Tribunals found about them?

My recollection, though it may be faulty, is that the Tribunal did not find against them. It was one of the accusations that McCabe got wrong.

However, as I said, I could well be wrong, but if you are so sure that they don't have a case, you will be able to point me to the relevant Tribunal finding against them.

Floppybits

Floppybits wrote: »

I think the treatment of McCabe by ordinary Gardai, Garda Management and even the lack of support from the Garda unions will make other potential whistleblowers think twice before putting their heads above the parapet.  So many of the people involved in the McCabe debacle have walked away scot free, just look at the 2 guards who attempted to stitch him up when they interviewed him and only for McCabe recording the meeting they would have been successful in the stitch up.  Nothing has ever happened those Gardai, they should have been sacked for what they attempted to do.

You would want to get your facts straight before you start making accusations against those two gardai.
Have you learned nothing from this whole affair?

Floppybits

Floppybits wrote: »

I think the treatment of McCabe by ordinary Gardai, Garda Management and even the lack of support from the Garda unions will make other potential whistleblowers think twice before putting their heads above the parapet.  So many of the people involved in the McCabe debacle have walked away scot free, just look at the 2 guards who attempted to stitch him up when they interviewed him and only for McCabe recording the meeting they would have been successful in the stitch up.  Nothing has ever happened those Gardai, they should have been sacked for what they attempted to do.

You would want to get your facts straight before you start making accusations against those two gardai.
Have you learned nothing from this whole affair?

Floppybits

bubblypop wrote: »

Floppybits wrote: »

I think the treatment of McCabe by ordinary Gardai, Garda Management and even the lack of support from the Garda unions will make other potential whistleblowers think twice before putting their heads above the parapet.  So many of the people involved in the McCabe debacle have walked away scot free, just look at the 2 guards who attempted to stitch him up when they interviewed him and only for McCabe recording the meeting they would have been successful in the stitch up.  Nothing has ever happened those Gardai, they should have been sacked for what they attempted to do.

You would want to get your facts straight before you start making accusations against those two gardai.
Have you learned nothing from this whole affair?

Here is a report from the Irish times talking about Gardai who were ready to perjure themselves at the O'Higgins inquiry until McCabe produced a tape. This is why I was asking did anything happen to these Gardai?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/allegations-over-mccabe-s-taped-meeting-with-garda%C3%AD-arose-from-inaccuracy-1.3350330

KaneToad

Floppybits wrote: »

Here is a report from the Irish times talking about Gardai who were ready to perjure themselves at the O'Higgins inquiry until McCabe produced a tape. This is why I was asking did anything happen to these Gardai?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/allegations-over-mccabe-s-taped-meeting-with-garda%C3%AD-arose-from-inaccuracy-1.3350330

Maybe if you read the article that you linked to, you might be better informed. Those guards you refer to have no case to answer, as outlined by tribunal judge.

Floppybits

KaneToad wrote: »

Floppybits wrote: »

Here is a report from the Irish times talking about Gardai who were ready to perjure themselves at the O'Higgins inquiry until McCabe produced a tape. This is why I was asking did anything happen to these Gardai?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/allegations-over-mccabe-s-taped-meeting-with-garda%C3%AD-arose-from-inaccuracy-1.3350330

Maybe if you read the article that you linked to, you might be better informed. Those guards you refer to have no case to answer, as outlined by tribunal judge.

Grand thanks for that, you are a superior being.

Frunchy

KingBrian2 wrote: »

She is doing a good job so no.

How did that work out?

blanch152

Floppybits wrote: »

Grand thanks for that, you are a superior being.

I think that it is amazing that there are posters ignoring the findings of the Tribunals. At the end of the day, two of the three whistleblowers were completely dismissed, and some of the accusations of the third were also dismissed. An awful lot of people were unfairly accused and subject to trial be media.

There is a lesson to be learned from all of that.

Whistleblowers have an important role to play. As such, their allegations need to be investigated. However, they often aren't in possession of the full facts, they may have agendas, and they may be making things up. Whether this should play out in public or not is a good question, given how many of the allegations were dismissed by the Tribunal.

It is certainly time for some of those who made political capital out of false allegations reflected more carefully on their part in all of this.

Edward M

I wonder how this will play out?
I hope they make him pay for his own defense.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-commissioner-seeks-to-reverse-callinan-s-legal-funding-1.3694024?mode=amp

James Brown

Edward M wrote: »

I wonder how this will play out?
I hope they make him pay for his own defense.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-commissioner-seeks-to-reverse-callinan-s-legal-funding-1.3694024?mode=amp

Only fair. If he wins he can recoup. His pension should be on the line.

Edward M

Just watched the first part of the McCabe documentary on RTE.
This is harrowing stuff.

McMurphy

Edward M wrote: »

Just watched the first part of the McCabe documentary on RTE.
This is harrowing stuff.

Never seen it myself, but the lads in after hours are up in arms about it. Something about off duty guards turning up at the scene of a suicide.

Locked.

In an unmarked car.

Apparently this is what started the whole thing, and it escalated from that.


Jesus.

Floppybits

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Never seen it myself, but the lads in after hours are up in arms about it. Something about off duty guards turning up at the scene of a suicide.

Locked.

In an unmarked car.

Apparently this is what started the whole thing, and it escalated from that.


Jesus.

Don't forget that one of the Gardai that turned up at the suicide drunk is also the father of Miss D who made the sexual assault allegation against McCabe, which was the file that the copy and paste error was made by Tusla.

Now all these are totally unconnected.