Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

tayto lover

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Who did?

How do you produce evidence that something was put in a bin for a charity?
You do not get a receipt.

Again i'm not taking their part on this but if something is gone then it's gone.

gizmo555

tayto lover wrote: »

How do you produce evidence that something was put in a bin for a charity?
You do not get a receipt.

Again i'm not taking their part on this but if something is gone then it's gone.

We're talking about phones used by two Garda Commissioners, heads of our police force, with responsibility for national security, counter-terrorism, and counter-intelligence.

An inability to trace and account for the disposal of their mobile phones is staggeringly incompetent information security - if it's true.

Captain Obvious

gizmo555 wrote: »

We're talking about phones used by two Garda Commissioners, heads of our police force, with responsibility for national security, counter-terrorism, and counter-intelligence.

An inability to trace and account for the disposal of their mobile phones is staggeringly incompetent information security - if it's true.

i haven't seen anyone claim they were competent.

tayto lover

gizmo555 wrote: »

We're talking about phones used by two Garda Commissioners, heads of our police force, with responsibility for national security, counter-terrorism, and counter-intelligence.

An inability to trace and account for the disposal of their mobile phones is staggeringly incompetent information security - if it's true.

I agree if it was compulsory to hand them back BUT it seems it was not.

gizmo555

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree if it was compulsory to hand them back BUT it seems it was not.

If it was not compulsory, it was equally incompetent. But I don't believe it's mere incompetence.

I guess it does sound stupid now, that official Garda phones would be handed over to charity.
But every station & Garda building in the country has Jack & Jill bags & boxes for old phones.
Everyone throws in old phones, I suppose if there wasn't an official hand back of phones, then it is reasonable to presume they could give them to charity.
The fact they don't have to hand them back in does sound crazy now.......

Muahahaha

So what happened the three phones seized from Dave Taylor, who alleged in his protected disclosure that they contained hundreds of texts which were a part of a smear campaign against Maurice McCabe.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ex-judge-requests-more-time-for-garda-whistleblower-case-1.2881210

At the core of both disclosures is the assertion that senior gardaí orchestrated what is described as a sustained campaign aimed at destroying the character and reputation of Sgt McCabe by spreading false, scurrilous and damaging allegations about him to journalists.

The disclosures claim that efforts to blacken Sgt McCabe’s name are confirmed by the contents of “hundreds of text messages” that allegedly were channelled through phones used by Supt Taylor, in some instances between officers senior in rank to him.

The aim of the campaign was to “bury McCabe” it is alleged. Central to the alleged campaign were three mobile phones used by Supt Taylor and which were seized by gardaí at the time of his arrest for allegedly leaking information to the media.

So are AGS seriously telling us that they arrested Dave Taylor, seized his three phones and then subsequently lost them/gave them to charity? I mean you would have to be pretty naive to believe that excuse, it is up there with the dog ate my homework :rolleyes:

Captain Obvious

Muahahaha wrote: »

So what happened the three phones seized from Dave Taylor, who alleged in his protected disclosure that they contained hundreds of texts which were a part of a smear campaign against Maurice McCabe.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ex-judge-requests-more-time-for-garda-whistleblower-case-1.2881210


So are AGS seriously telling us that they arrested Dave Taylor, seized his three phones and then subsequently lost them/gave them to charity? I mean you would have to be pretty naive to believe that excuse, it is up there with the dog ate my homework :rolleyes:

Assuming those aren't the three phones previously referred to, if they were state phones and no longer needed as evidence in the criminal investigation there would be no reason to retain them.

Muahahaha

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Assuming those aren't the three phones previously referred to, if they were state phones and no longer needed as evidence in the criminal investigation there would be no reason to retain them.

Yes there would. Dave Taylor made a protected disclosure in relation to the data on the three phones. Are you saying that Gardai making evidence disappear is best practice or something?

hatrickpatrick

Again, I honestly don't see why this isn't considered a criminal offence with associated jail time. Destruction of evidence, or negligent handling of evidence leading to its loss / destruction, should be the responsibility of a named member of the force in each Garda station, with criminal charges and penalties if this duty is not performed. End of.

Auguste Comte

tayto lover wrote: »

Brilliant for them and you BUT again if it wasn't the procedure then there was nothing stopping them from giving the phones to charity.

That would be one way to look at it, another would be that if there is no written procedure for the disposal of potentially sensitive equipment outside of the organisation then it shouldn't happen.

It's either gross incompetence or something much more sinister.

tayto lover

Auguste Comte wrote: »

That would be one way to look at it, another would be that if there is no written procedure for the disposal of potentially sensitive equipment outside of the organisation then it shouldn't happen.

It's either gross incompetence or something much more sinister.

But gross incompetence from who? There was no requirement.
I get it that it should be a requirement but it wasn't obviously. It needs to change but there's feck all that can be done about what happened.

Auguste Comte

tayto lover wrote: »

But gross incompetence from who? There was no requirement.
I get it that it should be a requirement but it wasn't obviously.

There is a basic requirement to protect sensitive data, intelligence and the security of the state. Allowing communication devices to disappear to God knows where falls well outside this requirement.

We are not talking about school kids we are dealing with the people responsible for our safety and security and that of the state. They shouldn't need to have every little thing in writing in order to behave responsibly. As far as anyone now knows Danny K might well be sitting in his Dubai apartment surfing whatever data it was possible for him to harvest from these devices.

To answer your question the incompitanc or whatever is going on starts at the very top and permeates down from there imo.

Nettle Soup

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know why. I know ours were given to charity as charities wrote to our firm looking for them.
We can all guess, suspect or even believe why they weren't kept in the garda but the fact is it's irrelevent now as it was not compulsory to keep them

There is zero evidence they were sent to a charity.

Do you also donate the SIM cards? They couldn't find those either.

Senior Gardaí lied about McCabe in an inquiry (O'Higgins). It was their word against his until he produced the tapes. If he had not produced the tapes he would now be ruined and this story would have died. And of course there is Tusla etc etc
So what makes you think they have stopped lying?
.

Nettle Soup

golfball37

Once again in Eire we fall back on what is legally ok even if it’s morally wrong.

The commissioners phone was no more put into a communal station basket and given to charity than shep ffs.

McMurphy

Muahahaha wrote: »

So are AGS seriously telling us that they arrested Dave Taylor, seized his three phones and then subsequently lost them/gave them to charity? I mean you would have to be pretty naive to believe that excuse, it is up there with the dog ate my homework :rolleyes:

This part is what's confusing me, I'm not a Garda, or a lawyer, and never been.arrester in my life either, so forgive me for not being up to speed on such matters.

However, I would have assumed if they arrested a supt, and seized his phones, that would indicate that they had reason to believe that these phones held something that couldnhave gotten either Taylor, AGS or both into a spot of bother, and the phones would have been considered evidence.


That evidence, (I would have thought) would have been stored somewhere safe in case it was later needed to protect both party's.

Either way, I find it highly unlikely that the top brass in AGS aren't completely aware of the exact fate of the phones.

However, I think it's safe to say Jack and Jill didn't get them.

Banana republic with a corrupt or incompetent police force.

Muahahaha

Johnny Dogs- you are correct- except there is one vital piece of information missing. The person who seized the three phones from Supt Dave Taylor was Chief Supt Jim McGowan who is none other than Noirin O Sullivans husband.

So when you say you find it highly unlikely that the top brass in AGS are not aware of the fate of the phones you would be absolutely correct. Dave Taylors protected disclosure specifically said that on those phones were hundreds of text messages to journalists, politicians and other Garda management which were part of a campaign to label Maurice McCabe as a kiddie fiddler. There was evidence on the phones that Noirin OSullivan was fully aware of this campaign. There was also evidence that she was fully aware that Paul Williams was interviewing Mrs.D and intending to print articles in relation to the sexual abuse allegations against McCabe that the DPP had already ruled null and void back in 2007. Then there is further evidence that Paul Williams employed Noirin OSullivans son (then a trainee Garda in Templemore) to be the videographer for the Mrs.D interviews.

So as you can see when Dave Taylor turned against Noirin it was essential that those three phones disappeared. If they did not then it is anyones guess how many of the top brass in the Park would have felt fall out from being associated with the smear campaign. The reverberations would have then carried into the media, Paul Williams and Paul Reynolds were certainly aware of the smear campaign and undoubtedly part of Dave Taylors negative briefings. And then onto Fine Gael themselves- how many TDs were part of Dave Taylors whispering campaign? Lets not forget Alan Shatter backed Callinan to the point he actually got sacked, it is now looking like Shatter believed the smear campaign which is why he had no problem with Callinan calling McCabe "disgusting". Varadkar and Martin have already testified at the Tribunal that they were aware of the "rumours" about McCabe so my guess is the whole of FG and FF knew about it and it all came from Dave Taylors phone, be it directly or indirectly.

So now you can see how important for everybody it was that those three phones went missing. The text messages on those phones had the potential to bring down a large part of Garda management, a number of crime journalists and perhaps even the government itself. Official Ireland needed those phones to disappear and disappear they did, all thanks to Noirin OSullivans husband, tis times like this that nepotism really pays dividends

Do we know that those 3 phones did disappear?

Muahahaha

bubblypop wrote: »

Do we know that those 3 phones did disappear?

Yes, reported widely in the media at the time

hatrickpatrick

Does anyone know if conspiracy to pervert the course of justice extends to tribunals and commissions of investigation, or if it strictly pertains only to formal court proceedings? If it was ever found that these phones were deliberately discarded, would that actually count as an offense given that they were related to tribunal proceedings and not a formal court case?

There may not be a clear cut answer on this, it could be one of those issues which isn't explicitly defined and has yet to be tested for precedent?

Captain Obvious

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yes there would. Dave Taylor made a protected disclosure in relation to the data on the three phones. Are you saying that Gardai making evidence disappear is best practice or something?

Gardaí don't retain evidence longer than required. They retain it for criminal investigations and that's it. It's always disposed of afterwards, often by auction or destruction.

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yes, reported widely in the media at the time

I can't find it?
I see they were seized at the time of his arrest, but can't see anywhere that says they are missing?

Muahahaha

Keep searching so bubblypop, I'm not making this up off my own bat. It was reported in all the main newspapers at the time

Edit- it is literally the second result on Google

Muahahaha

Captain Obvious wrote:

Gardaí don't retain evidence longer than required. They retain it for criminal investigations and that's it. It's always disposed of afterwards, often by auction or destruction.

Your posts show me that you clearly have no clue of the time lines of the Dave Taylor investigation and his protected disclosure. I think you need to read up on this before making wild stabs in the dark

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

Keep searching so bubblypop, I'm not making this up off my own bat. It was reported in all the main newspapers at the time

Edit- it is literally the second result on Google

No, not suggesting you are! Just can't find it is all. It's a surprise he didn't look for them back himself, after the investigation

Captain Obvious

Muahahaha wrote: »

Your posts show me that you clearly have no clue of the time lines of the Dave Taylor investigation and his protected disclosure. I think you need to read up on this before making wild stabs in the dark

I'm not sure how relevant it is. The question is whether Gardaí have some legal obligation or right to preserve evidence in relation to matters they are not investigating. I'm not aware of any such power or requirement.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I'm not sure how relevant it is. The question is whether Gardaave some legal obligation or right to preserve evidence in relation to matters they are not investigating. I'm not aware of any such power or requirement.

Whatever about obligations, they absolutely would have had the legal right to hold on to them, they were Garda phones to begin with.

Which brings us back to why they weren't retained by them, considering they arrested a supt and seized said phones from him.

You'd have thought that would have been as good a reason as any to keep them.

Muahahaha

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I'm not sure how relevant it is. The question is whether Gardaí have some legal obligation or right to preserve evidence in relation to matters they are not investigating. I'm not aware of any such power or requirement.

But they were investigating, thats why I said you need to understand the timelines instead of making stabs in the dark. Taylor made a protected disclosure which specifically mentioned the three phones. Thus the three phones were now evidence in not one but two investigations- one against Taylor and one against AGS & OSullivan. The phones were seized by Noirin OSullivans husband and Garda evidence at the Tribunal has been that they were lost, not that they were destroyed as evidence no longer required. Irrespective of that the internal Garda investigation into Dave Taylor did not conclude until January this year- long after the Tribunal had been established in February 2017.

OSullivan and her husband would have been well aware of the Terms of Reference of the Disclosures Tribunal (released on 27/2/17)

To investigate the allegation made in a Protected Disclosure under the Protected Disclosures Act 2014, on the 30th of September, 2016, by Superintendent David Taylor, wherein he alleges that he was instructed or directed by former Commissioner Martin Callinan and/or Deputy Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan, to contact the media to brief them negatively against Sergeant Maurice McCabe and in particular to brief the media that Sergeant McCabe was motivated by malice and revenge, that he was to encourage the media to write negatively about Sergeant McCabe, to the effect that his complaints had no substance, that the Gardaí had fully investigated his complaints and found no substance to his allegations and that he was driven by agendas.

To investigate the allegation of Superintendent Taylor in his Protected Disclosure, that he was directed to draw journalists’ attention to an allegation of criminal misconduct made against Sergeant McCabe and that this was the root cause of his agenda, namely revenge against the Gardaí.

So when Charleston released the above statement in Feb 17 Taylor was still under investigation by OSullivans husband in the Park. That investigation did not conclude until Jan 2018, a full 11 months after Judge Charleston had said he was investigating Dave Taylors protected disclosure involving the three phones. So given the above how and why did Dave Taylors three phones go missing? And what role did Noirin and her husband play in losing these phones?

Captain Obvious

Muahahaha wrote: »

But they were investigating, thats why I said you need to understand the timelines instead of making stabs in the dark. Taylor made a protected disclosure which specifically mentioned the three phones. Thus the three phones were now evidence in not one but two investigations- one against Taylor and one against AGS & OSullivan. The phones were seized by Noirin OSullivans husband and Garda evidence at the Tribunal has been that they were lost, not that they were destroyed as evidence no longer required. Irrespective of that the internal Garda investigation into Dave Taylor did not conclude until January this year- long after the Tribunal had been established in February 2017.

OSullivan and her husband would have been well aware of the Terms of Reference of the Disclosures Tribunal (released on 27/2/17)



So when Charleston released the above statement in Feb 17 Taylor was still under investigation by OSullivans husband in the Park. That investigation did not conclude until Jan 2018, a full 11 months after Judge Charleston had said he was investigating Dave Taylors protected disclosure involving the three phones. So given the above how and why did Dave Taylors three phones go missing? And what role did Noirin and her husband play in losing these phones?

I get what you are saying. Is there any info on when the phones were requested from the Gardaí?