Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 2:51pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You expect a police force to be run by reminders on a phone?

It seems he wants Gardaí to ignore the JLO process completely just so they can say they did something.

Muahahaha · 20-01-2019 3:19pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Not their fault you're putting your own interpretation on it.

Tell us then your interpretation on it and how it squares with the statements of Drew Harris and Joesphine Feehily. If you're claiming they have got it all wrong and individual Gardai do not have any responsibility for progressing their cases then you might explain that in depth.

Also if you are claiming this as some sort of systems break down how then did the majority of the force not face the same problems? 25% of the force have been earmarked for investigation for inaction of prosecuting crime. The majority of the force seemed to manage the system just fine but this cohort couldnt match them.

blanch152 wrote: »

You expect a police force to be run by reminders on a phone?

Well its pretty clear that some Gardai were not following up on their cases which then became statute barred. If they find that task difficult then there is plenty of tools and technology available for any employee to make their tasks streamlined and ensure that cock ups like this don't happen. People in the private sector use these tools day in day out. If you're not using them then you're behind the curve. It doesnt take a genius to create a simple spreadsheet with reminders of specific events built in to it, this is basic stuff in any workplace. And if they have an aversion to using simple technology then theres another way- keep a diary and write notes under the date by which prosecutions must be followed up. Rocket science it ain't.

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 3:33pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Tell us then your interpretation on it and how it squares with the statements of Drew Harris and Joesphine Feehily. If you're claiming they have got it all wrong and individual Gardai do not have any responsibility for progressing their cases then you might explain that in depth.

Both of them seem to recognise that it was a system failure.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Also if you are claiming this as some sort of systems break down how then did the majority of the force not face the same problems? 25% of the force have been earmarked for investigation for inaction of prosecuting crime. The majority of the force seemed to manage the system just fine but this cohort couldnt match them.

Plenty of possibilities there. The most obvious being that the others weren't involved in prosecuting juveniles or that the juveniles they dealt with were accepted by the JLO scheme.

Muahahaha · 20-01-2019 4:25pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Both of them seem to recognise that it was a system failure.

Can you link to where they say it was a systems failure? Harris said that it was due to Garda inaction and not following up on their cases. If its a system failure why is he setting up an investigation into malpractice by some members of the Gardai?

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 4:51pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can you link to where they say it was a systems failure? Harris said that it was due to Garda inaction and not following up on their cases. If its a system failure why is he setting up an investigation into malpractice by some members of the Gardai?

It's in your own quote above. Presumably the enquiry is to identify any which were not as a result of the overall issue.

Muahahaha · 20-01-2019 5:18pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's in your own quote above. Presumably the enquiry is to identify any which were not as a result of the overall issue.

Again where did Harris and Feehily say it was a systems failure, can you specifically link those words leaving their lips.

blanch152 · 20-01-2019 5:18pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Well its pretty clear that some Gardai were not following up on their cases which then became statute barred. If they find that task difficult then there is plenty of tools and technology available for any employee to make their tasks streamlined and ensure that cock ups like this don't happen. People in the private sector use these tools day in day out. If you're not using them then you're behind the curve. It doesnt take a genius to create a simple spreadsheet with reminders of specific events built in to it, this is basic stuff in any workplace. And if they have an aversion to using simple technology then theres another way- keep a diary and write notes under the date by which prosecutions must be followed up. Rocket science it ain't.

You would be the first to complain about data protection breaches if a single Garda put a single detail about a case on his private phone.

I don't think you understand a single thing about the restrictions in the way that the public service, and particularly the Gardai, has to operate.

Muahahaha · 20-01-2019 5:42pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You would be the first to complain about data protection breaches if a single Garda put a single detail about a case on his private phone.

I don't think you understand a single thing about the restrictions in the way that the public service, and particularly the Gardai, has to operate.

So a pen and a diary are of no use now?

And how was it the other members of the force were able to navigate the system whereas this cohort were not?

And maybe you might explain these restrictions in the public service that allow rapists and violent criminals to get off scot free?

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 6:09pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Again where did Harris and Feehily say it was a systems failure, can you specifically link those words leaving their lips.

Post 1845, your post above. You quote Feehily saying "escaping justice because the system forgets about them".

Muahahaha wrote: »

So a pen and a diary are of no use now?

And how was it the other members of the force were able to navigate the system whereas this cohort were not?

And maybe you might explain these restrictions in the public service that allow rapists and violent criminals to get off scot free?

You still seem to be having difficulty grasping the process. You cannot proceed without authorisation from the JLO. It doesn't matter how many reminders or diary entries you have. The prosecution needs to be authorised, first by the JLO, then by the DPP. If the Garda does not receive a notice to prosecute from the JLO he will naturally assume the case has been dealt with by them because he can do nothing else.

McMurphy · 20-01-2019 6:57pm

Why are people ignoring the big elephant in the corner?

It's all very well blaming "system failures" etc.

If this were merely a case of systems failing, why did Drew Harris have to publicly apologise to the victims of these crimes, calling it a "humiliating professional failure" for the force.

An even bigger elephant is the fact that a good few members have already been disciplined for their failings here.

20-01-2019 8:18pm

Because it is a failure for the force.
The new system & methods that were brought in to the jlo programme, clearly didn't work.
& it seems to have taken years for the force to deal with that. So obviously that is a failure for the force.
& in relation to the 25% of the force being involved, perhaps only 25 % of the force have any dealings with juvenile offenders.

Muahahaha · 20-01-2019 9:54pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Post 1845, your post above. You quote Feehily saying "escaping justice because the system forgets about them".

So she doesnt say there was a systems failure, she said the system forgets about the children, a system which is operated by Gardai. Feehily has been clear at where blame is to be apportioned-

The performance issue which we are examining today relates to children who were deemed unsuitable for the programme and for whom there was no follow up and no consequences

You still haven't linked to where Drew Harris said it was a systems failure as per your claim. I've only heard him put the blame at the inaction of some Gardai who didn't follow up on their cases. If he said there was a systems failure then link it, otherwise correct the record.

You still seem to be having difficulty grasping the process. You cannot proceed without authorisation from the JLO. It doesn't matter how many reminders or diary entries you have. The prosecution needs to be authorised, first by the JLO, then by the DPP. If the Garda does not receive a notice to prosecute from the JLO he will naturally assume the case has been dealt with by them because he can do nothing else.

What is it they say about the word assume? There's your failure right there, Gardai assuming that their case has come to a close but they don't have a piece of paper in their hand telling them as much. Until they do then you cannot assume anything. This is real basic stuff in any kind of workplace, you don't try to second guess what other people are doing. The only way to be certain is to go and find out.

In any case in a significant amount of cases the JLO did go back to the arresting Garda and told them that the child was not suitable for the Juvenille Diversion Program. So even after Garda were told this fact they still sat on their hands and didn't proceed to prosecute.

The report will show that no action at all was taken on a significant number of cases which were returned by JLOs as ineligible for the programme.

In September, TheJournal.ie reported how a teenager – who later became a suspect in the violent death of a man – avoided potential criminal prosecution at least eight times because of the issues experienced in the youth referral system.

If the JLO is going back to the arressting officer who then does nothing then this isn't a systems failure as you are claiming Captain, this is sheer incompetence.

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 10:18pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

So she doesnt say there was a systems failure, she said the system forgets about the children, a system which is operated by Gardai. Feehily has been clear at where blame is to be apportioned-

You still haven't linked to where Drew Harris said it was a systems failure as per your claim. I've only heard him put the blame at the inaction of some Gardai who didn't follow up on their cases. If he said there was a systems failure then link it, otherwise correct the record.

We just disagree on what they both mean. You think Garda inaction refers to the investigating member, I think it refers to to organisation. We'll just have to wait for the final figures to see who was correct.

Muahahaha wrote: »

What is it they say about the word assume? There's your failure right there, Gardai assuming that their case has come to a close but they don't have a piece of paper in their hand telling them as much. Until they do then you cannot assume anything. This is real basic stuff in any kind of workplace, you don't try to second guess what other people are doing. The only way to be certain is to go and find out.

Except it wouldn't matter because without the notification they cannot proceed. They did what they were required. If they were not notified to go any further then that's not their fault. Simple as. If there was an issue with notifying Gardaí to proceed then that was a failing in the system.

Muahahaha wrote: »

In any case in a significant amount of cases the JLO did go back to the arresting Garda and told them that the child was not suitable for the Juvenille Diversion Program. So even after Garda were told this fact they still sat on their hands and didn't proceed to prosecute.

Where are you getting that from?

Muahahaha wrote: »

If the JLO is going back to the arressting officer who then does nothing then this isn't a systems failure as you are claiming Captain, this is sheer incompetence.

I never claimed otherwise.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 12:10am

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Except it wouldn't matter because without the notification they cannot proceed. They did what they were required. If they were not notified to go any further then that's not their fault. Simple as. If there was an issue with notifying Gardaí to proceed then that was a failing in the system.

Where are you getting that from?

I never claimed otherwise.

But the report said a significant amount of Gardai did get the notification from the JLO yet they didnt proceed to the prosecution stage:-

The report will show that no action at all was taken on a significant number of cases which were returned by JLOs as ineligible for the programme.

https://www.thejournal.ie/youth-referral-report-audit-garda-4444216-Jan2019/

Do you now agree that there was incompentence at play here on behalf of some Gardai? How else can you explain them being told by the JLO to proceed to prosectuion and then them not doing it. You can't explain that away by systems failure, the individual Gardai who didnt perform their job as expected are the ones who are responsible here.

Plus the Junior Liason Officers (JLOs) themselves are specially trained Gardai who deal with youth crime. If you're claiming that the arresting officers weren't getting notifications then that problem is on the JLOs which is still on the Gardai.

drunkmonkey · 21-01-2019 12:43am

The Sunday times had it some of these went on to murder people.
Next page had over 4,000 still not signed up to code of conduct.

Captain Obvious · 21-01-2019 9:47am

Muahahaha wrote: »

But the report said a significant amount of Gardai did get the notification from the JLO yet they didnt proceed to the prosecution stage:-

https://www.thejournal.ie/youth-referral-report-audit-garda-4444216-Jan2019/

Do you now agree that there was incompentence at play here on behalf of some Gardai? How else can you explain them being told by the JLO to proceed to prosectuion and then them not doing it. You can't explain that away by systems failure, the individual Gardai who didnt perform their job as expected are the ones who are responsible here.

Plus the Junior Liason Officers (JLOs) themselves are specially trained Gardai who deal with youth crime. If you're claiming that the arresting officers weren't getting notifications then that problem is on the JLOs which is still on the Gardai.

Surely that depends on how the notification was done doesn't it? Why was this not an issue befo9re the change in system and how has it been suddenly fixed with a change in system?

FreudianSlippers · 21-01-2019 10:41am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its pretty shocking stuff that over 3,000 victims of crime have not got justice and nor will they ever due to the statute of limitations.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 4:23pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

IT reported it as well as the problem possibly extending into the adult criminal justice system

It is doubtful whether any of the crimes could now be prosecuted; most are statute barred and the others would be contaminated by the poor way they have been handled so far.

And now Josephine Feehily is concerned the same problem – of suspects for crimes escaping justice because the system forgets about them – is happening in the adult criminal justice system.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/drew-harris-honeymoon-abruptly-ended-by-humiliating-youth-crime-debacle-1.3761981

iirc this situation has been known about since 2014 and was happening before then. So because prosecutions weren't taken within the statute of limitations they can never be taken now

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Surely that depends on how the notification was done doesn't it? Why was this not an issue befo9re the change in system and how has it been suddenly fixed with a change in system?

What do you mean "how the notification was done"? This isn't rocket science- the garda junior liason officer goes to the arresting garda and says X child is not suitable for the juvenile diversion program. The child has shown zero remorse, refuses to apologise to the victims of his crime and won't engage with probation services. Therefore proceed to prosecution with the DPP. Arresting garda has the notification but then doesn't proceed with prosecution to the DPP. This happens in hundreds if not thousands of cases.

Like these two Gardai are in the same Garda station. Is it that much to ask that they communicate properly and ensure that whatever the outcome the junior liason officer decides is acted upon and followed up? If individual members don't take responsibility for doing what they are supposed to do (as has been reported) then thats on them, shouting systems failure is nothing more than deflection.

Also you still havent linked to where Drew Harris said this was a systems failure as per your claim yesterday. I never heard words of that ilk leave his mouth and none of the media seems to have reported it either, can you link to where he said it.

FreudianSlippers · 21-01-2019 4:28pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

IT reported it as well as the problem possibly extending into the adult criminal justice system

Honestly, that's silly reporting - summary offences are very unlikely to be rejected by the JLO under the Juvenile Diversion Programme's own criteria. That means the vast majority (if not all) were indictable offences and thus cannot be statute barred.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 4:37pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Honestly, that's silly reporting - summary offences are very unlikely to be rejected by the JLO under the Juvenile Diversion Programme's own criteria. That means the vast majority (if not all) were indictable offences and thus cannot be statute barred.

Im no lawyer but is there not a statute of limitiations on being charged with a crime and the service of a summons? i.e. the Gardai have six months to serve you, if they don't they are out of time.

The above reporting by the IT comes from what Drew Harris said at the Policing Authority last Thursday- he was asked by the board could these 3,000+ cases be now prosecuted and he said only a tiny amount of them, the vast majority of these criminals are going to get off scot free. Presumably he is not acting on the hoof and he got that instruction from the DPP.

Captain Obvious · 21-01-2019 4:38pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

IT reported it as well as the problem possibly extending into the adult criminal justice system

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/drew-harris-honeymoon-abruptly-ended-by-humiliating-youth-crime-debacle-1.3761981

iirc this situation has been known about since 2014 and was happening before then. So because prosecutions weren't taken within the statute of limitations they can never be taken now

What do you mean "how the notification was done"? This isn't rocket science- the garda junior liason officer goes to the arresting garda and says X child is not suitable for the juvenile diversion program. The child has shown zero remorse, refuses to apologise to the victims of his crime and won't engage with probation services. Therefore proceed to prosecution with the DPP. Arresting garda has the notification but then doesn't proceed with prosecution to the DPP. This happens in hundreds if not thousands of cases.

Like these two Gardai are in the same Garda station. Is it that much to ask that they communicate properly and ensure that whatever the outcome the junior liason officer decides is acted upon and followed up? If individual members don't take responsibility for doing what they are supposed to do (as has been reported) then thats on them, shouting systems failure is nothing more than deflection.

Also you still havent linked to where Drew Harris said this was a systems failure as per your claim yesterday. I never heard words of that ilk leave his mouth and none of the media seems to have reported it either, can you link to where he said it.

You talk about these things like the way you would do them is how they are done. First of all, there isn't a JLO in every station. Second, the local ones may not have been the ones to make the decisions. Third, verbal notification cannot be produced in court or shown to the DPP. Also, do you mean juvenile when you say junior?

Harris released a statement calling it an individual and organisational failure. You are assuming he meant the arresting Garda was to blame and the system was fine. I don't think that is the correct reading of his statement.

FreudianSlippers · 21-01-2019 4:39pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Im no lawyer but is there not a statute of limitiations on being charged with a crime and the service of a summons? i.e. the Gardai have six months to serve you, if they don't they are out of time.

The above reporting by the IT comes from what Drew Harris said at the Policing Authority last Thursday- he was asked by the board could these 3,000+ cases be now prosecuted and he said only a tiny amount of them, the vast majority of these criminals are going to get off scot free. Presumably he is not acting on the hoof and he got that instruction from the DPP.

6 month limit for summary offences (usually if not always District Court things like speeding, fines, etc.) and no limit for indictable offences.
See: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/classification_of_crimes_in_criminal_cases.html

Likely the inability to prosecute is due to chain of evidence issues resulting from elapsed time as opposed to a legal impediment to act.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 5:05pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You talk about these things like the way you would do them is how they are done. First of all, there isn't a JLO in every station. Second, the local ones may not have been the ones to make the decisions. Third, verbal notification cannot be produced in court or shown to the DPP. Also, do you mean juvenile when you say junior?

Id be pretty surprised if there isnt a JLO in the stations that are at focus here, we are not talking about stations with 3 or 4 Gardai, more like 50+. Irresspective of that if a JLO issues a notification (and Gardai have envelopes and free internal postal service) and the arressting officer doesnt act upon the notification then what do you say? Is it still a systems failure or is the individual Garda who didnt do his job to blame? I mean there is no accounting for someone who just doesnt do the job they are supposed to do.

Harris released a statement calling it an individual and organisational failure. You are assuming he meant the arresting Garda was to blame and the system was fine. I don't think that is the correct reading of his statement.

So he didn't say systems failure as you claimed yesterday. Individual and Organisational failure- i.e. the failure to organise the system properly, a task undertaken by Gardai and the failure of individual Gardai to work within the system properly. It all comes back to human beings who are Gardai at the end of the day. Systems failure makes it sound like an IT problem prevented them from doing their jobs. That simply is not the case. And nor was it the case for the majority of Gardai who managed to do their job correct and right.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Likely the inability to prosecute is due to chain of evidence issues resulting from elapsed time as opposed to a legal impediment to act.

Whatever the reason 3,000 odd victims of crime won't be seeing any justice for what happened to them. This includes a victim of rape and several of violent crime. And now it looks like the same problem is going to rear its head in the adult criminal justice system which has considerably more crimes committed that the juvenille system. If its as bad in the adult system and you extrapolate it is conceivable we are looking at 10,000 to 20,000 more crimes that were never prosecuted. Time will tell but this is serious stuff that was going on under Callinans and O'Sullivans watch.

blanch152 · 21-01-2019 5:17pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Id be pretty surprised if there isnt a JLO in the stations that are at focus here, we are not talking about stations with 3 or 4 Gardai, more like 50+. Irresspective of that if a JLO issues a notification (and Gardai have envelopes and free internal postal service) and the arressting officer doesnt act upon the notification then what do you say? Is it still a systems failure or is the individual Garda who didnt do his job to blame? I mean there is no accounting for someone who just doesnt do the job they are supposed to do.

So he didn't say systems failure as you claimed yesterday. Individual and Organisational failure- i.e. the failure to organise the system properly, a task undertaken by Gardai and the failure of individual Gardai to work within the system properly. It all comes back to human beings who are Gardai at the end of the day. Systems failure makes it sound like an IT problem prevented them from doing their jobs. That simply is not the case. And nor was it the case for the majority of Gardai who managed to do their job correct and right.

Whatever the reason 3,000 odd victims of crime won't be seeing any justice for what happened to them. This includes a victim of rape and several of violent crime. And now it looks like the same problem is going to rear its head in the adult criminal justice system which has considerably more crimes committed that the juvenille system. If its as bad in the adult system and you extrapolate it is conceivable we are looking at 10,000 to 20,000 more crimes that were never prosecuted. Time will tell but this is serious stuff that was going on under Callinans and O'Sullivans watch.

When did rape and violent crime become summary offences?

Did I miss something in the Dail?

21-01-2019 5:29pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Id be pretty surprised if there isnt a JLO in the stations that are at focus here, we are not talking about stations with 3 or 4 Gardai, more like 50+. Irresspective of that if a JLO issues a notification (and Gardai have envelopes and free internal postal service) and the arressting officer doesnt act upon the notification then what do you say? Is it still a systems failure or is the individual Garda who didnt do his job to blame? I mean there is no accounting for someone who just doesnt do the job they are supposed to do.

So he didn't say systems failure as you claimed yesterday. Individual and Organisational failure- i.e. the failure to organise the system properly, a task undertaken by Gardai and the failure of individual Gardai to work within the system properly. It all comes back to human beings who are Gardai at the end of the day. Systems failure makes it sound like an IT problem prevented them from doing their jobs. That simply is not the case. And nor was it the case for the majority of Gardai who managed to do their job correct and right.

Whatever the reason 3,000 odd victims of crime won't be seeing any justice for what happened to them. This includes a victim of rape and several of violent crime. And now it looks like the same problem is going to rear its head in the adult criminal justice system which has considerably more crimes committed that the juvenille system. If its as bad in the adult system and you extrapolate it is conceivable we are looking at 10,000 to 20,000 more crimes that were never prosecuted. Time will tell but this is serious stuff that was going on under Callinans and O'Sullivans watch.

You really don't know what you are talking about!
One JLO per division usually, maybe per district in busier areas. Busier areas mean more workload for the jlo, so far more chance that these offences took place in the busier stations.
Envelopes delivered to members? Do you think that is anyway to inform a member whether the juvenile is included in the scheme of should be charged? No, clearly these notifications have to be official or else how would we know they took place?
Their are official chanels these things go through. If there wasn't, sure couldn't every guard in the country claim they hadn't been notified??

And lastly, summary offences would be statute barred after 6 months, but other serious offences are not. They can, & I'm sure will be prosecuted now. So you can stop worrying about the thousands of victims of crimes, they will, I'm sure, see justice done.

Captain Obvious · 21-01-2019 5:46pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Id be pretty surprised if there isnt a JLO in the stations that are at focus here, we are not talking about stations with 3 or 4 Gardai, more like 50+. Irresspective of that if a JLO issues a notification (and Gardai have envelopes and free internal postal service) and the arressting officer doesnt act upon the notification then what do you say? Is it still a systems failure or is the individual Garda who didnt do his job to blame? I mean there is no accounting for someone who just doesnt do the job they are supposed to do.

That's correct. If a Garda received a notification through the correct channels on time and did not proceed then he will have to explain why. Of course there are plenty of legitimate reasons why. Those that were lazy should be disciplined. Some apparently already have.

Muahahaha wrote: »

So he didn't say systems failure as you claimed yesterday. Individual and Organisational failure- i.e. the failure to organise the system properly, a task undertaken by Gardai and the failure of individual Gardai to work within the system properly. It all comes back to human beings who are Gardai at the end of the day. Systems failure makes it sound like an IT problem prevented them from doing their jobs. That simply is not the case. And nor was it the case for the majority of Gardai who managed to do their job correct and right.

But if the system relies on a particular individual to do something and they don't do it through no fault of their own then that is a system failure. And you seem to be ignoring that the issues arose after the JLO system was moved to PULSE.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 5:49pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Envelopes delivered to members? Do you think that is anyway to inform a member whether the juvenile is included in the scheme of should be charged? No, clearly these notifications have to be official or else how would we know they took place?
Their are official chanels these things go through. If there wasn't, sure couldn't every guard in the country claim they hadn't been notified??

Well when the investigation begins no doubt thats what some Gardai will be claiming. After all we already know that they were marking their cases as solved when clearly they were not.

bubbly as you've knowledge of this maybe you might explain the notification system in detail, a step plan of how it works would be good here. Because I am still not buying this as a systems failure when human error is flashing brightly. Both Feehily and Harris have said that individual members of the Gardai were not following up on their cases as they were supposed to do.

And lastly, summary offences would be statute barred after 6 months, but other serious offences are not. They can, & I'm sure will be prosecuted now. So you can stop worrying about the thousands of victims of crimes, they will, I'm sure, see justice done.

But the summary offences are the majority here so yes, there are thousands of victims of crime who will never see justice. Harris said this last Thursday and apologised to all of them as well as saying he is going to write letters of apology too. On the serious crimes who knows? Its been reported the passage of time has corrupted the chain of evidence. A good defence solicitor would have a field day with that in the courts, the chain of evidence has to be beyond rapproach.

FreudianSlippers · 21-01-2019 6:22pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Whatever the reason 3,000 odd victims of crime won't be seeing any justice for what happened to them. This includes a victim of rape and several of violent crime. And now it looks like the same problem is going to rear its head in the adult criminal justice system which has considerably more crimes committed that the juvenille system. If its as bad in the adult system and you extrapolate it is conceivable we are looking at 10,000 to 20,000 more crimes that were never prosecuted. Time will tell but this is serious stuff that was going on under Callinans and O'Sullivans watch.

I'm genuinely not here to defend the AGS on this issue - I don't think the Commissioner is either. I'm simply saying that it's premature to say what the failure was until there is an investigation.

I'd question why a rape and violent crimes are sent to the JLO in the first place, but I'd be very concerned if these were somehow unable to be prosecuted given they are absolutely not statute barred.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 6:40pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm genuinely not here to defend the AGS on this issue - I don't think the Commissioner is either. I'm simply saying that it's premature to say what the failure was until there is an investigation.

I'd question why a rape and violent crimes are sent to the JLO in the first place, but I'd be very concerned if these were somehow unable to be prosecuted given they are absolutely not statute barred.

ah yeah its clear that Harris is out to clean up the mess left to him by Callinan and O'Sullivan, a task that should have begun in 2014 if we didn't have to endure the three year sh1tshow of O'Sullivans tenure.

Regards prematurity- they've held an internal investigation and the results of that were discusssed by Harris and Feehily at the Policing Authority last Thursday. From what he said individual Gardai did not follow up on their cases as they were obliged to do. He is now considering bringing disciplinary proceedings against the members concerned. That sounds to me like Harris has made his mind up on what went wrong here and where he laying the blame.

Again I would also say that the majority of Gardai navigated the system and did their job to competently here. It is not the entire rank and file who are subject to investigation, only about 30% of them. It seems some Gardai did their job correctly and others did not.

Captain Obvious · 21-01-2019 6:40pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Well when the investigation begins no doubt thats what some Gardai will be claiming. After all we already know that they were marking their cases as solved when clearly they were not.

Again, you are ignorant to the system and are making assumptions based on that ignorance. Individual Gardaí don't decide to mark a case "solved". An incident is automatically marked "detected" when a suspect offender is nominated.

Muahahaha wrote: »

bubbly as you've knowledge of this maybe you might explain the notification system in detail, a step plan of how it works would be good here. Because I am still not buying this as a systems failure when human error is flashing brightly. Both Feehily and Harris have said that individual members of the Gardai were not following up on their cases as they were supposed to do.

Which doesn't really make sense. A direction from the JLO should come through the Superintendent and the Sergeant and be logged on a correspondence register in the district office. A failure to respond would elicit automated reminders from the register. If it was a matter of the Garda simply ignoring it then the whole chain of command in the station would have been ignoring it too.

Muahahaha wrote: »

But the summary offences are the majority here so yes, there are thousands of victims of crime who will never see justice. Harris said this last Thursday and apologised to all of them as well as saying he is going to write letters of apology too. On the serious crimes who knows? Its been reported the passage of time has corrupted the chain of evidence. A good defence solicitor would have a field day with that in the courts, the chain of evidence has to be beyond rapproach.

The majority of summary cases will have to be traffic and public order related. The only common ones I can think of off hand that would involve a victim are simple assault and failing to pay a taxi fare. If this isn't the case then it sounds more like they are choosing not to pursue some indictable offences due to the time passed.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 6:50pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's correct. If a Garda received a notification through the correct channels on time and did not proceed then he will have to explain why. Of course there are plenty of legitimate reasons why. Those that were lazy should be disciplined. Some apparently already have.

Fair enough Captain. But what other legitimate reasons could explain why a Garda didn't proceed once a notification is given?

But if the system relies on a particular individual to do something and they don't do it through no fault of their own then that is a system failure. And you seem to be ignoring that the issues arose after the JLO system was moved to PULSE.

But again how could they not carry a task out and it be through no fault of their own? I get that Gardai are snowed under in paperwork but that is the nature of the job, it can't be used as an excuse for not doing it correctly.

blanch152 · 21-01-2019 6:59pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

ah yeah its clear that Harris is out to clean up the mess left to him

You never answered my question earlier about whether the "big red flag" around Harris was now gone?

On the rest of your post, do have links to the transcripts of what they said or just to newspaper reports?

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 7:02pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Again, you are ignorant to the system and are making assumptions based on that ignorance. Individual Gardaí don't decide to mark a case "solved". An incident is automatically marked "detected" when a suspect offender is nominated.

The IT reported it differently, they used the word Garda to denote individual members

However, despite falling between the cracks, all of the cases were counted as “detected”, or solved, by the Garda. That means the force must now amend the official crime data again.

So which is it? The IT is reporting what happened and was said at last Thursdays meeting in the Policing Authority.

Which doesn't really make sense. A direction from the JLO should come through the Superintendent and the Sergeant and be logged on a correspondence register in the district office. A failure to respond would elicit automated reminders from the register. If it was a matter of the Garda simply ignoring it then the whole chain of command in the station would have been ignoring it too.

So the notification goes JLO-Super-Sergeant-Arresting Garda and reminiders are built into the Pulse system if it is not actioned upon. The arresting Garda and all his superiors are getting reminders which sounds like a decent system to me, they can't be expected to remember every single detail of all their cases and when they have to be progressed. Now assuming that the entire chain of command wasn't to blame then how did it fall down? Or is there blame at Super level for just ignoring the reminders and telling rank & file to do likewise?

Captain Obvious · 21-01-2019 7:27pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Fair enough Captain. But what other legitimate reasons could explain why a Garda didn't proceed once a notification is given?

The first thing to remember is that the JLO doesn't direct a prosecution as such. They just refuse access to the Juvenile Diversion program. Once that is done then a case has to proceed as normal. A direction to prosecute must be obtained from the DPP. The proof required to refer to the program is a lot less than the proof required to prosecute. It's not clear from what I've read how this was factored in to the investigation. So in the absence of that information I'd have to consider a refusal by the DPP to prosecute as one of the reasons.

Aside from that, you have to consider situations where a victim does not want to proceed once they were made aware a JLO was refused and they would be required to attend court. There is also the possibility the suspect fled the jurisdiction or could not be located or died. Likewise the Garda could have retired or died (Garda suicide rate is 7 times national average). The Garda could have been transferred outside the division. In these cases an investigation is supposed to be transferred to another Garda but this may not have happened.

Muahahaha wrote: »

But again how could they not carry a task out and it be through no fault of their own? I get that Gardai are snowed under in paperwork but that is the nature of the job, it can't be used as an excuse for not doing it correctly.

That's because you look at a Garda like a case manager. Investigating Gardaí are given specific tasks to do. Prepare a file and send it on to JLO or for directions from DPP. Then await further instruction. You think the Garda should be chasing after the file to find out it's progress. Some Gardaí will do that. Personally I don't believe this is the job of the Garda. They've done their part by investigating and preparing a file and sending it through the correct channels. If it comes back to them they'll do more. If it doesn't they won't.

Muahahaha wrote: »

The IT reported it differently, they used the word Garda to denote individual members

So which is it? The IT is reporting what happened and was said at last Thursdays meeting in the Policing Authority.

The IT is incorrect. Whether you believe it is the Garda's choice or not they are still incorrect as Gardaí do not personally do the task, a person in a call centre does.

Muahahaha wrote: »

So the notification goes JLO-Super-Sergeant-Arresting Garda and reminiders are built into the Pulse system if it is not actioned upon. The arresting Garda and all his superiors are getting reminders which sounds like a decent system to me, they can't be expected to remember every single detail of all their cases and when they have to be progressed. Now assuming that the entire chain of command wasn't to blame then how did it fall down? Or is there blame at Super level for just ignoring the reminders and telling rank & file to do likewise?

The way you describe it is the system now. All through PULSE. Before that it was done through paper notifications and a local correspondence register the Garda had no access to.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 7:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You never answered my question earlier about whether the "big red flag" around Harris was now gone?

On the rest of your post, do have links to the transcripts of what they said or just to newspaper reports?

Thats because to be honest it didnt deserve an answer blanch.I have never disputed the competency of Harris as leader of a police service, it was clear he had a successful career in the RUC/PSNI. What I did dispute was the fact there were 14 other candidates who applied for the job of Commissioner and had no doubt that that number contained people who were equally competent as Harris but who didnt carry the baggage from the Troubles & MI5 that Harris did.

I wasn't the only one to raise that point- the Crime & Security branch within the Gardai who are responsible for threats to the State raised it too as did articles in the media. No amount argument can negate the fact that Harris has a lifelong duty to keep MI5 intelligence secrets which include the who was responsible Dublin and Monaghan bombings, which murdered 33 Irish citizens and injured 300 more. It would take an extraordinary level of naievty to think that Harris does not know who planted those bombs, you would also have to cliaim that MI5 are incompetent too not to know. And no amount of argument can negate that his knowledge of those loyalist terrorists who planted the three bombs is a direct conflict of interest to his duty as Garda Commissioner. I said Harris taking the bull by the horns is to be commended but that doesnt mean that he wss the only person of that 15 candidate shortlist who could have done so, to suggest otherwise is illogical thinking.

In any case Harris is cleaning up the mess of O'Sullivan, someone who you have gone to great lenghts to defend on here before, even to the point of saying she did nothing wrong in the Templemore fraud scandal despite her hands being all over it. This latest scandal happened on her watch, she assumed the post of Commissioner in 2014 which was also the year the Garda Inspectorate raised the issue. But it took Harris to actually do anything about it. O'Sullivan was in situ three years and not a jot was said be her. Harris is in situ 5 months and he is tackling the problem head on. So how to you square that off with the performance of O'Sullivan now?

Captain Obvious · 21-01-2019 8:09pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats because to be honest it didnt deserve an answer blanch.I have never disputed the competency of Harris as leader of a police service, it was clear he had a successful career in the RUC/PSNI. What I did dispute was the fact there were 14 other candidates who applied for the job of Commissioner and had no doubt that that number contained people who were equally competent as Harris but who didnt carry the baggage from the Troubles & MI5 that Harris did.

I wasn't the only one to raise that point- the Crime & Security branch within the Gardai who are responsible for threats to the State raised it too as did articles in the media. No amount argument can negate the fact that Harris has a lifelong duty to keep MI5 intelligence secrets which include the who was responsible Dublin and Monaghan bombings, which murdered 33 Irish citizens and injured 300 more. It would take an extraordinary level of naievty to think that Harris does not know who planted those bombs, you would also have to cliaim that MI5 are incompetent too not to know. And no amount of argument can negate that his knowledge of those loyalist terrorists who planted the three bombs is a direct conflict of interest to his duty as Garda Commissioner. I said Harris taking the bull by the horns is to be commended but that doesnt mean that he wss the only person of that 15 candidate shortlist who could have done so, to suggest otherwise is illogical thinking.

In any case Harris is cleaning up the mess of O'Sullivan, someone who you have gone to great lenghts to defend on here before, even to the point of saying she did nothing wrong in the Templemore fraud scandal despite her hands being all over it. This latest scandal happened on her watch, she assumed the post of Commissioner in 2014 which was also the year the Garda Inspectorate raised the issue. But it took Harris to actually do anything about it. O'Sullivan was in situ three years and not a jot was said be her. Harris is in situ 5 months and he is tackling the problem head on. So how to you square that off with the performance of O'Sullivan now?

The situation was tackled over a year ago. The performance and accountability system was brought in way before Harris and it has addressed many of the failings in the system that has led to these kind of issues.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 8:11pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So in the absence of that information I'd have to consider a refusal by the DPP to prosecute as one of the reasons.

It is indeed but it is outside the main body of reasons given on Thursday, I'll link below

Aside from that, you have to consider situations where a victim does not want to proceed once they were made aware a JLO was refused and they would be required to attend court. There is also the possibility the suspect fled the jurisdiction or could not be located or died. Likewise the Garda could have retired or died (Garda suicide rate is 7 times national average). The Garda could have been transferred outside the division. In these cases an investigation is supposed to be transferred to another Garda but this may not have happened.

Again all the above are valid reasons why prosecutions didnt proceed. But they are out of the main body of what is being examined here.
The information sheet is here http://www.policingauthority.ie/Website/PA/PolicingAuthorityWeb.nsf/page/IAHD-B8HHQD13234717-en/$File/Youth%20Diversion%20Programme%20Referral%20Statistics.pdf

The headline figure that they are investigating is cases that were Not appropriately progressed (to final conclusion) due to Garda inaction 7,894 Page 2 of the info sheet says that these 7,894 cases had referrals but were not acted upon by Gardai. That figure of 7,894 excludes such reasons as the DPP not directing to prosectute, the defendant going on the run, etc. Its a straight 7,894 cases not actioned upon or concluded properly.

That's because you look at a Garda like a case manager. Investigating Gardaí are given specific tasks to do. Prepare a file and send it on to JLO or for directions from DPP. Then await further instruction. You think the Garda should be chasing after the file to find out it's progress. Some Gardaí will do that. Personally I don't believe this is the job of the Garda. They've done their part by investigating and preparing a file and sending it through the correct channels. If it comes back to them they'll do more. If it doesn't they won't.

Well maybe thats the crux of the problem? Some Gardai are going the extra mile and following up their cases and other Gardai are not. And we end up in this situation where thousands of crimes go unpunished. If so then that is a failure of management but individual Gardai must also take responsibility for their own performance.

The IT is incorrect. Whether you believe it is the Garda's choice or not they are still incorrect as Gardaí do not personally do the task, a person in a call centre does.

I presume you are talking about the Garda Information Service (GIS?). Surely the civilians in the call centre only have the authority to update the Pulse system at the behest of an individual Garda who tells them to mark the crime off as solved?

Captain Obvious · 21-01-2019 8:32pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

It is indeed but it is outside the main body of reasons given on Thursday, I'll link below

Again all the above are valid reasons why prosecutions didnt proceed. But they are out of the main body of what is being examined here.
The information sheet is here http://www.policingauthority.ie/Website/PA/PolicingAuthorityWeb.nsf/page/IAHD-B8HHQD13234717-en/$File/Youth%20Diversion%20Programme%20Referral%20Statistics.pdf

The headline figure that they are investigating is cases that were Not appropriately progressed (to final conclusion) due to Garda inaction 7,894 Page 2 of the info sheet says that these 7,894 cases had referrals but were not acted upon by Gardai. That figure of 7,894 excludes such reasons as the DPP not directing to prosectute, the defendant going on the run, etc. Its a straight 7,894 cases not actioned upon or concluded properly.

As far as I can tell that is what they found from their own investigation. I think those numbers will change after each Garda is individually contacted.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Well maybe thats the crux of the problem? Some Gardai are going the extra mile and following up their cases and other Gardai are not. And we end up in this situation where thousands of crimes go unpunished. If so then that is a failure of management but individual Gardai must also take responsibility for their own performance.

Punished for not going beyond your required duty? Don't think that would survive a legal challenge.

Muahahaha wrote: »

I presume you are talking about the Garda Information Service (GIS?). Surely the civilians in the call centre only have the authority to update the Pulse system at the behest of an individual Garda who tells them to mark the crime off as solved?

Like I said, they mark it automatically as detected when a suspect offender is nominated. As far as I am aware this has to be done before a referral can be sent.

Muahahaha · 21-01-2019 8:45pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

As far as I can tell that is what they found from their own investigation. I think those numbers will change after each Garda is individually contacted.

Harris said the numbers will change as it is a fliud investigation, but even if they halved we would still be talking of 4,000 odd cases that didnt get prosecuted due to Garda inaction

Punished for not going beyond your required duty? Don't think that would survive a legal challenge.

But surely Gardai following up on their own cases is their required duty? And it is the required duty of Sergeants and Supers above them to make sure they do so. Harris is saying it as a result of inaction, he seems to be of the belief that Gardai must follow up on their case load.

It very easy for a Garda just to shrug their shoulders and say "thats not my job" but if they don't do it then nobody will and what we end up with is this mess where criminals are getting off scot free. There has to be accountability for them not seeing their cases to conclusion, otherwise why are they even in the job? Is morale really that low that members are just saying fcuk it and not doing their job? If so it is a sad state of affairs imo.

Captain Obvious · 21-01-2019 8:51pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Harris said the numbers will change as it is a fliud investigation, but even if they halved we would still be talking of 4,000 odd cases that didnt get prosecuted due to Garda inaction

I'm sure we'll found out why in time.

Muahahaha wrote: »

But surely Gardai following up on their own cases is their required duty? And it is the required duty of Sergeants and Supers above them to make sure they do so. Harris is saying it as a result of inaction, he seems to be of the belief that Gardai must follow up on their case load.

It very easy for a Garda just to shrug their shoulders and say "thats not my job" but if they don't do it then nobody will and what we end up with is this mess where criminals are getting off scot free. There has to be accountability for them not seeing their cases to conclusion, otherwise why are they even in the job? Is morale really that low that members are just saying fcuk it and not doing their job? If so it is a sad state of affairs imo.

You keep saying it's their job. A persons duties have to be laid out in writing somewhere. If they want to make it part of the job then do so officially.

BaronVon · 21-01-2019 10:10pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Again I would also say that the majority of Gardai navigated the system and did their job to competently here. It is not the entire rank and file who are subject to investigation, only about 30% of them. It seems some Gardai did their job correctly and others did not.

I would argue that 30% of the total Garda force would be the vast majority of Gardaí who would be coming into contact with juvenile offenders. There are plenty of Guards in offices, specialised units, traffic units, detective units etc, who would very rarely deal with juvenile offenders. The vast majority of juvenile offenders would be dealt with by response and patrol units, i.e. the regular unit. So if you were to take that percentage as a percentage of regular units, I would expect it to be exceeding at least 70% of regular unit members.

Therefore, IMO, it would definitely be a systems failure. No doubt there were some individual failures too.

With regards the fact the crimes were marked as detected, in order to benefit from the JLO system, the juvenile has to admit the offence. If he admits the offence to the guard in the station, I think it's fair to say the offence was detected. If the investigating guard was then never notified that the juvenile was unsuitable for the JLO system, then he would not know that he needed to change the detection status of the case.

22-01-2019 12:48am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Well when the investigation begins no doubt thats what some Gardai will be claiming. After all we already know that they were marking their cases as solved when clearly they were not.

bubbly as you've knowledge of this maybe you might explain the notification system in detail, a step plan of how it works would be good here. Because I am still not buying this as a systems failure when human error is flashing brightly. Both Feehily and Harris have said that individual members of the Gardai were not following up on their cases as they were supposed to do.

But the summary offences are the majority here so yes, there are thousands of victims of crime who will never see justice. Harris said this last Thursday and apologised to all of them as well as saying he is going to write letters of apology too. On the serious crimes who knows? Its been reported the passage of time has corrupted the chain of evidence. A good defence solicitor would have a field day with that in the courts, the chain of evidence has to be beyond rapproach.

When a member invrstigates a crime, & they identify a juvenile is an offender of that crime, then it is marked as a detected crime. Because it is.
they have solved the crime, as such.
That juvenile may or may not be included in the jlo system.
The way the system is now, which is different to before pulse, means that every single offender has to be considered for a caution.
Previously there was a system, where a juvenile was already identified as not suitable for the system.
Now, every single juvenile arested, has to be included for every single crime.
This has resulted in every single juvenile offender being referred for every single crime .
This has resulted in all JLO officers having a much larger workload.
By the time they go through all crimes by juveniles, there may be some crimes statue barred. & by the time individual Gardai are notified, there may be some crimes that are statue barred.
Any serious crimes, however, Will not be statute barred & those juveniles can still be charged.

Official notification comes through the channels, the jlo sends paperwork to the superintendent office, where it is recorded, it then goes to the sergeant, where it is recorded, then to the individual Garda.

blanch152 · 22-01-2019 10:25am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Harris said the numbers will change as it is a fliud investigation, but even if they halved we would still be talking of 4,000 odd cases that didnt get prosecuted due to Garda inaction

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its pretty shocking stuff that over 3,000 victims of crime have not got justice and nor will they ever due to the statute of limitations.

3,000 or 4,000, your number keeps changing.

At least your posts appear to have cleared up the issue that summary crimes, the ones that are statute barred, normally don't have victims and have dropped the victim references.

blanch152 · 22-01-2019 10:33am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats because to be honest it didnt deserve an answer blanch.I have never disputed the competency of Harris as leader of a police service, it was clear he had a successful career in the RUC/PSNI. What I did dispute was the fact there were 14 other candidates who applied for the job of Commissioner and had no doubt that that number contained people who were equally competent as Harris but who didnt carry the baggage from the Troubles & MI5 that Harris did.

I wasn't the only one to raise that point- the Crime & Security branch within the Gardai who are responsible for threats to the State raised it too as did articles in the media. No amount argument can negate the fact that Harris has a lifelong duty to keep MI5 intelligence secrets which include the who was responsible Dublin and Monaghan bombings, which murdered 33 Irish citizens and injured 300 more. It would take an extraordinary level of naievty to think that Harris does not know who planted those bombs, you would also have to cliaim that MI5 are incompetent too not to know. And no amount of argument can negate that his knowledge of those loyalist terrorists who planted the three bombs is a direct conflict of interest to his duty as Garda Commissioner. I said Harris taking the bull by the horns is to be commended but that doesnt mean that he wss the only person of that 15 candidate shortlist who could have done so, to suggest otherwise is illogical thinking.

In any case Harris is cleaning up the mess of O'Sullivan, someone who you have gone to great lenghts to defend on here before, even to the point of saying she did nothing wrong in the Templemore fraud scandal despite her hands being all over it. This latest scandal happened on her watch, she assumed the post of Commissioner in 2014 which was also the year the Garda Inspectorate raised the issue. But it took Harris to actually do anything about it. O'Sullivan was in situ three years and not a jot was said be her. Harris is in situ 5 months and he is tackling the problem head on. So how to you square that off with the performance of O'Sullivan now?

Your post betrays a complete misunderstanding of procedures around conflicts of interest.

A conflict of interest in relation to the Monaghan bombing (should one exist, we only have your theory to rely on, I don't accept there is necessarily as big a conflict of interest as you speculate) doesn't in any way prevent his appointment as Commissioner. It may prevent him being active on that investigation, if his knowledge is as you say it is (and is anything more than scuttlebutt and gossip) but you hardly want him to spend his time reading forensic reports from 40 years ago, do you?

Conflicts of interest have to be declared, no more. I have made statements to the Gardai in relation to a number of crimes over the last few decades. Some of them remain unresolved. Does that mean that my knowledge of those crimes, and who I believe perpetrated them prevents me from ever being Garda Commissioner? There are lots of other reasons why I won't be Garda Commissioner but information on crimes isn't one.

Once a conflict of interest is declared, appropriate precautions around that particular issue, and only that issue, have to be taken. It doesn't affect anything else a public servant does.

Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

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