Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

RustyNut

Auguste Comte wrote: »

There is a basic requirement to protect sensitive data, intelligence and the security of the state. Allowing communication devices to disappear to God knows where falls well outside this requirement.

We are not talking about school kids we are dealing with the people responsible for our safety and security and that of the state. They shouldn't need to have every little thing in writing in order to behave responsibly. As far as anyone now knows Danny K might well be sitting in his Dubai apartment surfing whatever data it was possible for him to harvest from these devices.

To answer your question the incompitanc or whatever is going on starts at the very top and permeates down from there imo.

My fiver is on whatever.

Muahahaha

Captain Obvious wrote:

I get what you are saying. Is there any info on when the phones were requested from the Gardaí?

You would have to trove back through the Tribunals documents to find that out. However the Tribunal began Feb 2017 and the first 6 months approx was dedicated to gathering statements & evidence so I would imagine the barristers for the Tribunal asked for the phones during that period.

In any case Charleston's initial appeal to the public and to all state bodies was to provide any and all evidence they had relating to the Terms of Reference- so the Tribunals barristers should not even have needed to ask for the phones which were clearly a central part of Taylor's allegations which he made in his protected disclosure in October 2016.

Charleston himself has gone on record in the media more than once saying that he is not happy with how certain people have been cooperating with his inquiry. As we already know Francis Fitzgerald fell on her sword over this very fact.

James Brown

I've always dodged taking a company credit card or phone over the years.
You've to jump through hoops to be reimbursed and justify each spend. Rightly, but it's too much hassle.
Then there's the phones; you've to account for the bill, 'why did you call that number, that's not a company number?' The bill is scrutinised and again, fair enough, but it's not worth the hassle.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Ah would you stop. If there's no requirement on you to do something that's not a loophole.

It's about credibility. We've had a finance minister kept his money in his wardrobe. Nothing wrong with that.
These are the law and order leaders of the country not a few lads cutting corners in the local county council maintenance depot.
Should we be hiring people with more professionalism and higher standards maybe? I mean these innocent things could be misconstrued as nefarious...by any reasonable on looker.

****EDIT

Seems they do keep logs and records of some phones. Very inconsistantly mind;

The chief superintendent who conducted a criminal investigation into Superintendent David Taylor has told the Disclosures Tribunal that an analysis of his phone showed a pattern of him disclosing unauthorised information to journalists.

The tribunal heard that a phone confiscated from Supt Taylor showed 11,000 contacts with journalists in a four-month period after he had been transferred from the Garda Press Office.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0508/960949-disclosures-tribunal/

Someone cynical might think they were cherry picking rather than had a clear followed procedure.

tayto lover

Is the Tribunal on today lads?

emo72

tayto lover wrote: »

Is the Tribunal on today lads?

Sure is. Following on broadsheet Twitter.

Captain Obvious

tayto lover wrote: »

Is the Tribunal on today lads?

It is. Supt Taylor sounds leakier than out national water infrastructure.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It is. Supt Taylor sounds leakier than out national water infrastructure.

By the shenanigans of paperless contracts, shredding, and missing phones, it's good that someone saw fit to have a record of things. Handy they had his phone records mind
O'Sullivan was fond of the journalist too.

blanch152

Anyone catch the apology on Prime Time tonight?

I was only half-listening but it seemed to me that the two gardai in Mullingar who interviewed McCabe got a fulsome apology from Prime Time.

James Brown

The Disclosures Tribunal has heard that no evidence has been found on various phones, devices and Garda IT systems to support the allegation of a senior Garda smear campaign against whistleblower Sergeant Maurice McCabe
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0510/962537-disclosures-tribunal/

Does it mean anything either way with 12 of 15 phones missing?

Nine out of eleven laptops have also not been found

The Jack and Jill foundation must be flying.

Nettle Soup

The Tribunal essentially gave the Gardaí time to cover their tracks.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Does it mean anything either way with 12 of 15 phones missing?



The Jack and Jill foundation must be flying.

Interesting contradiction.


From RTE

The inquiry has previously heard that 12 of 15 phones of interest have gone missing.
These include all three phones used by Supt Taylor while he was in the press office.

From The Journal

Elaine Strachan of the FSNI told the Tribunal that she examined three telephones which had been used by Supt Taylor,

So were the phones located?

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Interesting contradiction.


From RTE






From The Journal





So were the phones located?

So they looked at the phones, but don't have them or the recorded contents? I wonder who that benefits? Surely they were also given to the Jack and Jill Foundation?

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So they looked at the phones, but don't have them or the recorded contents? I wonder who that benefits? Surely they were also given to the Jack and Jill Foundation?

Well it seems they'd been fully forensically examined before disposal.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Interesting contradiction.


From RTE




From The Journal





So were the phones located?

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but doesn't look like a contradiction to me.

The RTE article says the following.

The inquiry has previously heard that 12 of 15 phones of interest have gone missing.

These include all three phones used by Supt Taylor while he was in the press office.

So the phones he was using whilst in the press office had gone missing.

The journal article says the following though.

No evidence to support Taylor’s allegation was found on any of three phones which were used by Taylor between September 2014 and May 2015, after he was reassigned from the press office.

Taylor was shifted to traffic in mid 2014 from the press office.

It looks like they were examining phones he used between Sept 14 and May 15. Long after he left the press office.

Isn't Taylor claiming he was instructed to smear McCabe whilst in the press office?

They're looking in the wrong places by the looks of things.

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but doesn't look like a contradiction to me.

The RTE article says the following.



So the phones he was using whilst in the press office had gone missing.

The journal article says the following though.


Taylor was shifted to traffic in mid 2014 from the press office.

It looks like they were examining phones he used between Sept 14 and May 15. Long after he left the press office.

Isn't Taylor claiming he was instructed to smear McCabe whilst in the press office?

They're looking in the wrong places by the looks of things.

So he had three state phones in the press office and three in the 9 months he was in traffic? That's a bit ridiculous.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I've a lot of respect for the frontline rank and file members but you'd have to wonder what kind of clowns got into senior leadership positions over the years.

It must be demoralising for the average guard on the street to be led by muppets.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So he had three state phones in the press office and three in the 9 months he was in traffic? That's a bit ridiculous.

Agreed. It's a wonder why some phones were found and others lost. Was it random or purposeful?
How you mislay several laptops is an even more of a ludicrous affair. They don't slip between couch cushions.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So he had three state phones in the press office and three in the 9 months he was in traffic? That's a bit ridiculous.

I'm not a member of the Force, so am not too familiar with the ins and outs of certain aspects of it, but could it be that within whatever traffic unit Taylor was assigned to, there may have been 'communal' phones, of which he has access to them at any point during the time frames mentioned above?

Ridiculous isn't the word though, it seems the top brass had indeed been granted more than ample time to cover tracks, lose some evidence, or shred other evidence.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Agreed. It's a wonder why some phones were found and others lost. Was it random or purposeful?
How you mislay several laptops is an even more of a ludicrous affair. They don't slip between couch cushions.

It seems I was right earlier on what happened to the phones.

An Apple iPhone 4 which had been used by O’Sullivan, and was given to her son,

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It seems I was right earlier on what happened to the phones.

She gave a state, tax payer paid for phone to her son? Was it one she had bought herself? Did the son pass it to Williams?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

She gave a state, tax payer paid for phone to her son? Was it one she had bought herself? Did the son pass it to Williams?

Depreciation on phones would be over 3 years at most, so any phone older than three years is worth zero to the taxpayer.

givyjoe

blanch152 wrote: »

Depreciation on phones would be over 3 years at most, so any phone older than three years is worth zero to the taxpayer.

Do you really believe that any 3 year old iPhone is worth zero?

blanch152

givyjoe wrote: »

Do you really believe that any 3 year old iPhone is worth zero?

According to this 2003 circular, it is five years:

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/finance/2003/30.pdf

There may be a more recent circular.

Captain Obvious

blanch152 wrote: »

According to this 2003 circular, it is five years:

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/finance/2003/30.pdf

There may be a more recent circular.

Interesting note from that

Disposal of unwanted equipment should be carried out in the most financially advantageous manner possible, including minimising storage and removal costs. As IT equipment tends to lose market value rapidly, disposal should take place as soon as possible, once a decision to replace the equipment has been made.

You'd think there would be an overall department to handle that.

James Brown

Do we know when she gave her son our phone? Was it a year old, 2?

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Interesting note from that


You'd think there would be an overall department to handle that.

You would think the leading law and order authorities would be able to keep track of tax payer funded equipment.

Maybe the Westies or Kinahans and Hutches stole them? I mean nobody knows.

RustyNut

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Do we know when she gave her son our phone? Was it a year old, 2?


Maybe the Westies or Kinahans and Hutches stole them? I mean nobody knows.

Just as long as The Hon Mr Justice Peter Charleton doesn't get them then all is good in the Garda hood, apparently.

James Brown

RustyNut wrote: »

Just as long as The Hon Mr Justice Peter Charleton doesn't get them then all is good in the Garda hood, apparently.

I feel for the rank and file, (and society). It seems only a certain caliber of Garda gets ahead and my impression is it's not a great environment if you try improve things for the state and your fellow members. Keeping everything in house feeds this kind of thing. It's ironic that it seems even in the Garda there seems to be a code of silence, despite the good speaking up may do.

Seth Brundle

Former Garda press officer was ‘ordered’ to brief against McCabe

Giving evidence to the tribunal for the first time, Supt Dave Taylor said he was told that when talking to journalists he was to “drop into the conversation” that Sgt McCabe had been the subject of a sex abuse allegation some years earlier, and “revenge” against the force was his “driving force”.

At the time Mr Callinan was getting “deeply frustrated” that the penalty points issue that had been raised by Sgt McCabe was “not abating, it was growing and growing all the time, Supt Taylor said. It was reflecting badly on An Garda Síochána,” and badly on Mr Callinan.

Supt Taylor said he was told by Mr Callinan that any time the penalty points issue was mentioned to journalists, he was to say “well there is a backstory here”.

...

Asked if he believed the instructions he had received were improper, Supt Taylor said it had to be understood that An Garda Síochána is a “disciplined force”. If the Garda Commissioner gave you a direct order, you acted on it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/former-garda-press-officer-was-ordered-to-brief-against-mccabe-1.3494606

Muahahaha

Should be a fun day at the Tribunal on Thursday, both Shatter and Callinan are due to appear. Shatter is under questioning in the morning and then Callinan in the afternoon. After that Callinan faces another four full days in the dock and then Noirin herself is being recalled to see if her memory has improved since the last outing.

Remarkably Thursday at the Tribunal will see one former justice minister directly question another former justice minister under the direction of a judge(a first I believe). Hopefully McDowell will tear Shatter a new one, there is certainly no love lost between the two of them. Nor with Shatter and Maurice McCabe, in the words of the confidential recipient Oliver Connolly to McCabe in 2014 "I’ll tell you something Maurice and this is just personal advice to you. If Shatter thinks your screwing him, you’re finished.... If Shatter thinks it’s you, if he thinks or is told by the Commissioner or the Gardaí here’s this guy again trying another route trying to put pressure on, he’ll go after you”

It will be also interesting to find out to what extent did Callinan screw over Shatter. We already have an admission from the alleged hot shot lawyer Gerald Kean that he was completely tricked by Callinan into smearing the name of Maurice McCabe on the Marian Finucane radio show, a defamation that resulted in a 180k payout to McCabe and John Wilson from RTE.

Will it be the case that Shatter (another lawyer) was also completely tricked by Callinan into believing the tall tales designed to smear McCabe? Because if it does turn out to be the case then that means Callinan played Shatter like a fiddle and he fell for the trick hook line and sinker. Shatter ultimately paid for it with his job as Minister for Justice, a role he coveted since the start of his political life in 1981. Yet when he finally got there some 30 years later he lasted only two years in the job before Enda Kenny plunged a knife in his back and fired him. And all of this happened while Mick Wallace and Clare Daly were shouting across the Dail chamber telling Shatter that McCabe was an honest man and he needed to take a closer look at what Garda Commissioner Callinan was up to. Shatter was warned time and time again by Wallace and Daly but his arrogance would not allow him to listen. If only he did, he might still be Minister for Justice rather than being roundly humiliated. I wonder how he feels about his buddy Callinan now in the cold light of day?

Thursday will tell all and ought to be interesting

Just wondering are witnesses compelled to attend?
Is it like a summons?
What happens if a witness doesn't show up?