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Should another Garda Commissioner resign?
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I included McCabe in a list with Taylor and Callinan as people who had questions over their evidence. That isn't ignoring serious issues relating to others.
There is an awful lot of preciousness around if someone questions McCabe at all.
When you mention McCabe in the same sentence as Callinan while talking about questionable evidence you are damn sure people will get "precious " .
Still waiting for you to provide that questionable evidence BTW.0 -
Captain Obvious wrote: »it certainly isn't accurate to say he was 100% correct in everything he said. And what 180 PULSE incidents are you referring to? He leaked the details of thousands of FCPS cancellations. What about those? Most of them were legitimate cancellations. Why aren't you counting them? I'd agree with a claim that he was right more often than not but your sticking to this 97.4% figure is silly.
I have never claimed he was accurate 100% of the time, it was *only* 97.4% which is pretty stunning accuracy IMO giving the remaining 2.6% were allegations that could not be proven, mainly because senior management in AGS would not co-operate with the OHiggins inquiry, just as they are doing their best now not to co-operate with the Charleton one. Maybe it would be better if we could focus on how even now senior management in AGS are trying to hoodwink the Judge and the Irish taxpayer rather than having to focus on how good an investigator McCabe is? I mean I would rather be talking about that but some people on this thread want to blacken the name of McCabe at any chance they get, perhaps because it deflects from the serious deficiencies in AGS. There are people here with skin in the game so to speak.
re:180 Pulse cases- there were over 1,000 but OHiggins said he didnt have the time to go through all of them. So a sample of 180 were selected. Furthermore nor did McCabe "leak" details of FCPS to the media, he gave them as evidence to TDs as allowed under the 2005 Garda Act, which incidentally was written into the statute books by his barrister Michael McDowell. So if youve a problem with that I suggest take it up with his legal advisor McDowell and he will oblige in educating you in the matter rather than allowing you to make unfounded allegations of leaking against his client.There is an awful lot of preciousness around if someone questions McCabe at all.
Lol this coming from the lad who has slurred McCabes character and is not able to back it up with evidence. You have done it in other threads on this matter too, it is quite the running theme for you.
Furthermore you said yesterday that Alan Shatter did nothing wrong except for him "taking his eye off the Gardai". Given his job as Minister for Justice was to keep his eye on the Gardai and he failed in that regard your own logic shows us that he did everything wrong. If only your hero could have listened to Wallace and Daly he might still have a job, as it stands now he is bumming around south Dublin writing his pervy novels. Winning bigly, eh :rolleyes:0 -
I have never claimed he was accurate 100% of the time, it was *only* 97.4% which is pretty stunning accuracy
Are you deliberately missing the point? The figure of 97.4% you keep mentioning is nonsense. It's completely based on the stuff you think is relevant only.IMO giving the remaining 2.6% were allegations that could not be proven, mainly because senior management in AGS would not co-operate with the OHiggins inquiry, just as they are doing their best now not to co-operate with the Charleton one. Maybe it would be better if we could focus on how even now senior management in AGS are trying to hoodwink the Judge and the Irish taxpayer rather than having to focus on how good an investigator McCabe is? I mean I would rather be talking about that but some people on this thread want to blacken the name of McCabe at any chance they get, perhaps because it deflects from the serious deficiencies in AGS. There are people here with skin in the game so to speak.
We would have moved on but you keep attacking posters in the most hypocritical fashion whenever they give an opinion you don't like. Feel free to simply not reply to the topics you no longer wish to engage with.re:180 Pulse cases- there were over 1,000 but OHiggins said he didnt have the time to go through all of them. So a sample of 180 were selected.
Again another case of you simply using your own goalposts. The commission said in relation to those records that there were issues with them but did not agree with McCabes classification of them as corrupt or evidence of wrongdoing.Furthermore nor did McCabe "leak" details of FCPS to the media, he gave them as evidence to TDs as allowed under the 2005 Garda Act, which incidentally was written into the statute books by his barrister Michael McDowell. So if youve a problem with that I suggest take it up with his legal advisor McDowell and he will oblige in educating you in the matter rather than allowing you to make unfounded allegations of leaking against his client.
I never mentioned the media or McCabe leaking stuff to the media. You added that yourself.0 -
Captain Obvious wrote: »Are you deliberately missing the point? The figure of 97.4% you keep mentioning is nonsense. It's completely based on the stuff you think is relevant only.
Nope Captain, it is based on the allegations McCabe brought to the OHiggins commission and that OHiggins made judgements on. I am not sure what part of that is not clear because I have made my calculation as clear as day. Here is it again -
Allegations of malpractice in Baileboro =12
Allegations of malpractice on Pulse = 180
Allegations Vs Callinan & 2 x Assistant Commissioners = 3
Total allegations =195
Total found to be true =191
Total found to be unproven =4
Are you taking issue with OHiggins judgements or why is it you are calling the above into question, they are OHiggins figures, not mine and they are all there in his report
Link pleaseAgain another case of you simply using your own goalposts. The commission said in relation to those records that there were issues with them but did not agree with McCabes classification of them as corrupt or evidence of wrongdoing.]
I never mentioned the media or McCabe leaking stuff to the media. You added that yourself.
You said he leaked thousands of FCP notices, to whom were you referring, you need to back up your assertions with evidence because leaked is a very loaded term and it seems to me that you are suggesting illegality, please clarify0 -
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Nope Captain, it is based on all the allegations McCabe brought to the OHiggins commission, go back and read the report, it is all there for you
Have you read the O'Higgins report? There are a number of instances where O'Higgins finds issues with the incidents but does not agree with McCabes specific allegations. This goes back to the other posters reference to him being unreliable as a witness.Link please12.63 The commission’s criticisms should not be taken as an indication that An Garda Síochána should operate an inflexible rule of prosecuting every minor infraction. The commission understands the use of a transparent, intelligible system of discretion as a tool of effective policing.
12.64 In many of the incidents complained of in the ”dossier”, Sergeant McCabe contended that either the incident is evidence of corruption or that the narrative was updated in a manner which was corrupt. This specific aspect of the complaints seems to be based on the fact that after the PULSE printouts were seized at the Hillgrove Hotel many of them were returned to the division from which they had emanated.
12.65 The contention that the decision to return a number of the PULSE incidents to the Cavan / Monaghan Division to be updated was itself corrupt is not correct. It is clear that the decision to return the 624 incidents was a decision taken in good faith by Deputy Commissioner Rice on the basis of a view that the infirmity in the incidents was that they were not up to date. It is difficult to know whether a different course
may have been adopted if Chief Superintendent Sheridan was taken through the 282 PULSE incidents directly by Sergeant McCabe as was originally envisaged. This did not come to pass for the reasons outlined above.
12.66 Further, the commission rejects the suggestion that updating the incidents was itself corrupt.
So the physical information was correct but he exaggerated what it meant. It's not saying he deliberately tried to mislead.You said he leaked thousands of FCP notices, to whom were you referring, you need to back up your assertions with evidence because leaked is a very loaded term and it seems to me that you are suggesting illegality, please clarify
I didn't suggest illegality. Again something added by you. If you have an issue with the word "leaked" then replace it with whatever you wish if it makes you feel better.0 -
Nope Captain, it is based on the allegations McCabe brought to the OHiggins commission and that OHiggins made judgements on. I am not sure what part of that is not clear because I have made my calculation as clear as day. Here is it again -
Allegations of malpractice in Baileboro =12
Allegations of malpractice on Pulse = 180
Allegations Vs Callinan & 2 x Assistant Commissioners = 3
Total allegations =195
Total found to be true =191
Total found to be unproven =4
Are you taking issue with OHiggins judgements or why is it you are calling the above into question, they are OHiggins figures, not mine and they are all there in his report
Link please
You said he leaked thousands of FCP notices, to whom were you referring, you need to back up your assertions with evidence because leaked is a very loaded term and it seems to me that you are suggesting illegality, please clarify
I am going to be pedantic to show up the limitation of your mathematical construct:
Allegations of malpractice in Baileboro =12
Allegations of malpractice on Pulse = 1000
Allegations Vs Callinan & 2 x Assistant Commissioners = 3
Total allegations =1015
Total found to be true =191
Total found to be unproven =824
Accuracy Percentage = 18.81%
That figure of 18.8% is as valid as your figure of 94% or 97% or whatever. They all are based on differing assumptions and can all claim to be accurate.
Being realistic, you could treat the Pulse allegation as 1 allegation. This would give:
Allegations of malpractice in Baileboro =12
Allegations of malpractice on Pulse = 1
Allegations Vs Callinan & 2 x Assistant Commissioners = 3
Total allegations =16
Total found to be true =12
Total found to be unproven =4
75% score for McCabe, now that is probably the most accurate representation of all. Someone who tells the truth, but is prone to exaggeration, leaving question marks over their evidence.
At the end of the day, I am not disputing the conclusions of the O'Higgins Commission, but just as that Commission did not believe every word out of McCabe's mouth, neither do I.0 -
Was Callinan asked about the 2 senior Gardaí he sent to frame McCabe in Mullingar by doing the "our word against his" line - until McCabe produced the tape of the meeting?0
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There are core problems within An Garda. Likely the state wouldn't be aware, (if MoJ's and the state of the DoJ are to be believed) if not for McCabe and others. Elements at varying levels where either unaware or complicit.
McCabe's reputation only pertains to how far reaching this corruption is and if there were a smear campaign against him for blowing the whistle.
Just feel that needs mentioning. It's beginning to read like if McCabe's evidence is found even partially wanting, 'there's nothing to see here, move along'.
There's a lot to see and we have McCabe to thank.0 -
My honest opinion: Callinan is f*cked. Whether or not he actually did the things he's being accused of, he is now essentially having to attack the testimonies of multiple witnesses to this enquiry. If it was his word against McCabe's, that'd be one thing, but McCabe has now been backed up on several different fronts and Callinan is essentially having to look like he's desperately lashing out against the turning tide in trying to deflect and defend himself.
Unless the tribunal takes a rather extraordinary turn, Callinan is going down. I find it highly likely that they'll report something to the effect of "while we have no evidence one way or another as to the veracity of the accusations levelled against him, it is clear that Callinan foistered and presided over an utterly toxic managerial atmosphere at the highest levels of AGA, a toxic atmosphere which filtered down to his colleagues and subordinates". In other words, we can't prove that he did this or that as alleged, but we're satisfied that he was an almighty douchebag of a boss and that this had knock on effects as to how his immediate subordinates in upper management ran the organisation as a whole.
That's my two cents anyway. No proof of specific allegations, but ample evidence that he was the absolute worst sort of "horrible boss", and plenty of evidence that this was a major factor in how the rest of the force operated under his appalling ideology and leadership.0 -
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Nettle Soup wrote: »Was Callinan asked about the 2 senior Gardae sent to frame McCabe in Mullingar by doing the "our word against his" line - until McCabe produced the tape of the meeting?
Seems that's a strategy he's clinging dearly to.Earlier, Mr Callinan denied suggesting that Fianna Fail TD John McGuinness has invented evidence against the former garda commissioner.
Mr Callinan said he absolutely refuted the ‘crazy and very serious allegations’ made by Deputy McGuinness when he said the Commissioner told him Sergeant McCabe had abused his own children.
Mr Callinan said Deputy McGuinness had a duty as a public representative to report the allegations earlier.
The former commissioner found himself in the uncomfortable position that his recollection of conversations with five men is different from their own.
Oh and there's this part.Mr Callinan has denied directing Superintendent Taylor to smear the garda whistleblower - and there is no evidence of such a campaign, other than the testimony of the former garda press officer.
Missing phones and 10 x bags of shredded papers though.0 -
I think Callinan is in big trouble. He on his own and there are loads of people circling him like wolves around an injured deer. Too many things went against him and it's mostly his own words that are being used to damn him.0
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Johnny Dogs wrote: »Seems that's a strategy he's clinging dearly to.
Oh and there's this part.
Missing phones and 10 x bags of shredded papers though.
Several laptops too.
It may boil down to; Bertie is a free man, but would you let him look after your pension? I can't see Callinan getting a legal roasting of any description. The state, in my view, will not allow as big a domino to fall. There's not enough miles between the next domino, (O'Sullivan, various MoJ's?) and the current government to let that happen. We'll be given recommendations and he'll go lie down on his fat state pension.0 -
I am going to be pedantic to show up the limitation of your mathematical construct:
Allegations of malpractice in Baileboro =12
Allegations of malractice on Pulse = 1000
Allegations Vs Callinan & 2 x Assistant Commissioners = 3
Total allegations =1015
Total found to be true =191
Total found to be unproven =824
Accuracy Percentage = 18.81%
That is not being pedantic blanch, that is delibritely going out of your way to be inaccurate. The 824 allegations you have listed as unproven were never unproven, they were never even tested in the first place because OHiggins said the volume was too big for the Commission and their resources and time constraints it was under. You simply cannot include allegations that were never even tested. My calculation is simple AND accurate in that it takes account of all allegations tested that were tested by OHiggins, it doesnt get any simpler than that really.Being realistic, you could treat the Pulse allegation as 1 allegation. This would give:
Allegations of malpractice in Baileboro =12
Allegations of malpractice on Pulse = 1
Allegations Vs Callinan & 2 x Assistant Commissioners = 3
Total allegations =16
Total found to be true =12
Total found to be unproven =4
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Again you are down the road of crunching numbers in such a way to make them less accurate to suit your agenda of trying to call the credibility of McCabe into question.
At no time did the OHiggins Commission treat the 180 cases of Pulse malpractice as one investigation, there were 180 separate investigations into the 180 allegations. McCabe got all of them right which is showed up both an astoinishing level of malpractice in the Gardai but also how bang on the money he has been. I know this aint what you wanna hear but these are the facts of what happened at OHiggins and no amount of number twisting from you is going to change that, he was correct 97.4% of the time, suck it up instead of behaving so salty with your grieving over Shatter.0 -
So you're saying the Tribunal will give a corrupt finding based on what the "state" wants?Matt Barrett wrote: »The state, in my view, will not allow as big a domino to fall. There's not enough miles between the next domino, (O'Sullivan, various MoJ's?) and the current government to let that happen. We'll be given recommendations and he'll go lie down on his fat state pension.0 -
Again you are down the road of crunching numbers in such a way to make them less accurate to suit your agenda of trying to call the credibility of McCabe into question.
At no time did the OHiggins Commission treat the 180 cases of Pulse malpractice as one investigation, there were 180 separate investigations into the 180 allegations. McCabe got all of them right which is showed up both an astoinishing level of malpractice in the Gardai but also how bang on the money he has been. I know this aint what you wanna hear but these are the facts of what happened at OHiggins and no amount of number twisting from you is going to change that, he was correct 97.4% of the time, suck it up instead of behaving so salty with your grieving over Shatter.
now you are just making up your own conclusions. I posted the relevant parts of the O'Higgins report and you are straight up ignoring them.Seth Brundle wrote: »So you're saying the Tribunal will give a corrupt finding based on what the "state" wants?
That's why these things tend to be a waste of time.0 -
Seth Brundle wrote: »So you're saying the Tribunal will give a corrupt finding based on what the "state" wants?
I think what is being suggested is that the state will find what it finds, but the repercussions (due to the possible deliberate lack of evidence) will be minimal to those involved.0 -
Matt Barrett wrote: »Several laptops too.
It may boil down to; Bertie is a free man, but would you let him look after your pension? I can't see Callinan getting a legal roasting of any description. The state, in my view, will not allow as big a domino to fall. There's not enough miles between the next domino, (O'Sullivan, various MoJ's?) and the current government to let that happen. We'll be given recommendations and he'll go lie down on his fat state pension.
It's an opportunity for the State to completely reform An Garda Siochana. Will it take it, probably not. With other crises ongoing, homelessness, HSE and Public Health Service to name but 2, the State will just carry on as before, not wanting another added to the list.0 -
Seth Brundle wrote: »So you're saying the Tribunal will give a corrupt finding based on what the "state" wants?
No. I'm saying the weight of the state, the deep pockets of the tax payer, may be used to ensure it's played down and nobody is held to account in any meaningful way, 'Nothing to see here' etc.0 -
Did they play this video to Callinan yet?
Pretty clear.0 -
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Nettle Soup wrote: »Did they play this video to Callinan yet?
Pretty clear.
It's like you going in to report a crime and the Garda on the desk telling you your lack of faith in your fellow country men is disgusting.
Between, not being aware, aware but not giving due importance and not believing any impropriety was possible, what's clear so far is a lot of high ranking people, by their own admission, were not very good at their jobs, despite any 'full confidence' to the contrary.0 -
O'Sullivan:Ms O'Sullivan again said that she could not recall receiving the Tusla notification of the false rape allegation against Sgt McCabe.
However, she said she accepted the evidence of her private secretary that she noted the correspondence.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0529/966743-disclosures-tribunal-osullivan/
How do you get to be a senior figure in law enforcement if you can't recall rape allegations against a high profile whistle blower in an organisation you head? It's not credible.0 -
Philip Boucher Hayes was refreshingly forthright on the matter of Martin callinan at the tribunal.
I'm doubtful of the merits of his complaint about having set questions to ask the commissioner.
Surely part of his and Rtes job as a broadcaster is not to cowtow to this nonsense0 -
That is not being pedantic blanch, that is delibritely going out of your way to be inaccurate. The 824 allegations you have listed as unproven were never unproven, they were never even tested in the first place because OHiggins said the volume was too big for the Commission and their resources and time constraints it was under. You simply cannot include allegations that were never even tested. My calculation is simple AND accurate in that it takes account of all allegations tested that were tested by OHiggins, it doesnt get any simpler than that really.
Again you are down the road of crunching numbers in such a way to make them less accurate to suit your agenda of trying to call the credibility of McCabe into question.
At no time did the OHiggins Commission treat the 180 cases of Pulse malpractice as one investigation, there were 180 separate investigations into the 180 allegations. McCabe got all of them right which is showed up both an astoinishing level of malpractice in the Gardai but also how bang on the money he has been. I know this aint what you wanna hear but these are the facts of what happened at OHiggins and no amount of number twisting from you is going to change that, he was correct 97.4% of the time, suck it up instead of behaving so salty with your grieving over Shatter.
Even if we accept your premise for a moment, and to be clear, I don't accept it, the Commission did not conclude that McCabe was right in all 180 cases. Here are some extracts from the Report:
"In many of the incidents complained of in the ”dossier”, Sergeant McCabe contended that either the incident is evidence of corruption or that the narrative was updated in a manner which was corrupt. This specific aspect of the complaints seems to be based on the fact that after the PULSE printouts were seized at the Hillgrove Hotel many of them were returned to the division from which they had emanated. "
"The contention that the decision to return a number of the PULSE incidents to the Cavan / Monaghan Division to be updated was itself corrupt is not correct"
......."Further, the commission rejects the suggestion that updating the incidents was itself corrupt"
So, even in relation to the 182 incidents, the Commission did not uphold everything that McCabe said. That also doesn't account for the fact that out of 1,000 incidents that he was claiming corruption on, McCabe picked that 182 for a subsequent complaint to the Taoiseach. He would hardly pick out the best cases, would he?
You really need to read the whole chapter to get an indication of what the Commission found.0 -
THE CHAIRMAN OF the Disclosures Tribunal has said it is not conceivable based on the evidence he has heard so far that journalists were negatively briefed about whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe by senior garda officers.
http://www.thejournal.ie/charleton-tribunal-day-92-4066953-Jun2018/
Seems Dave Taylor is about as believable as Keith Harrison.0 -
Captain Obvious wrote: »http://www.thejournal.ie/charleton-tribunal-day-92-4066953-Jun2018/
Seems Dave Taylor is about as believable as Keith Harrison.
Looking that way, the problem with discredited whistleblowers like Harrison and Taylor is that they do an injustice to real whistleblowers. Even McCabe's propensity to exaggerate has done whistleblowing some harm.
A real pity because a creditable whistleblowing process is vitally important for society. If all it attracts are cranks and miscreants then it is a real problem.0 -
I'd say Callinan referring to it as 'disgusting' might have put a few off. Not to mention the smear campaign, (however deep or broad, yet to be decided).
The state should repeatedly thank McCabe.0 -
Looking that way, the problem with discredited whistleblowers like Harrison and Taylor is that they do an injustice to real whistleblowers. Even McCabe's propensity to exaggerate has done whistleblowing some harm.
A real pity because a creditable whistleblowing process is vitally important for society. If all it attracts are cranks and miscreants then it is a real problem.
Are you having a laugh?!0 -
Looking that way, the problem with discredited whistleblowers like Harrison and Taylor is that they do an injustice to real whistleblowers. Even McCabe's propensity to exaggerate has done whistleblowing some harm.
A real pity because a creditable whistleblowing process is vitally important for society. If all it attracts are cranks and miscreants then it is a real problem.
Are you saying McCabe is not a credible whistleblower and perhaps his treatment was somehow justifiable?
Perhaps the propensity to try to totally discredit him led to exaggeration sometimes due to the frustration he must have felt.
The system of trying to discredit whistleblowers is the real problem here, the necessity to preserve the sanctity of the almost infallibility of the force has shown the upper management in their true light here IMO, people capable of destroying a man and his family by falsification of character, and some still buy it and try to sell it as somehow justifiable by still trying to infer discredit on the man!
Unbelievable really.0 -
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You might even say disgusting.The system of trying to discredit whistleblowers is they real problem here, the necessity to preserve the sanctity of the almost infallibility of the force has shown the upper management in their true light here IMO, people capable of destroying a man and his family by falsification of character, and some still buy it and try to sell it as somehow justifiable by still trying to infer discredit on the man
Unbelievable really.0
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