Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

(1) A campaign is organised - there has been little evidence presented so far that there was any organised campaign against McCabe, other than from Taylor, who has changed his story multiple times. There has been evidence (conflicting) that things were said about McCabe, but no evidence that this was organised or pre-meditated.

(2) For a campaign to be a smear campaign, those making the allegations have to know that the allegations they were spreading were definitively untrue. Again, there has been no evidence presented to demonstrate that Callinan or others alleged to have spread rumours about McCabe definitively knew those allegations were untrue.

So while we have evidence that some things were said about McCabe, we are a long way from being able to say with any confidence that there was a smear campaign.

Yes there is. Callinan happened to say things about McCabe and there was a Norman Wisdom type chain of occurrences that simply happened to relate to McCabe? Not credible.

No they don't. A smear campaign is smearing a persons name. A police professional spreading unproven rumour is smearing, untrue or not. In, fact even if true, unprofessional and actively smearing. Get up the yard.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

How I am closing down a discussion by suggesting alternative scenarios?

You have been definitively stating there was a smear campaign, when there has been insufficient evidence to prove that so far. That is closing down the discussion, refusing to allow alternate views.

You may well be right, the judge might conclude that way. However, you are premature in stating it so clearly. I am not taking a position one way or the other, I am posing open questions.

In my view, not definitively. More chaff?
It's not believable nor credible to me that you don't know what constitutes smearing a persons name. So I asked why you would seem to be fudging. FYI: you seem to be taking a strong position against Taylor and to an extent McCabe. Just so you know.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I disagree. It looks to me and them that Callinan was eluding to the press office. That would back Talyor, to an extent.

That would be the most circumstantial of evidence.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It doesn't matter. He spread unproven accusations and rumour in an effort to smear McCabe. unbecoming of a human, let alone a supposed law and order professional.

There is a very big difference between spreading something you think is true and spreading something you know is not. One involves deliberate deception.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yes. Do you believe no Garda had any involvement in any smear campaign, it was just Callinan?

I don't see any evidence of other Gardaí smearing McCabe at the direction or with the encouragement of Callinan

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It appears to me some folk in a public and professional capacity are bias and actively fighting for one side over another. Not sure how that relates to my 'argument'.

It looks to me like you are making ad hominem attacks on people who are arguing against you in an attempt to paint their arguments as mostly bias.

Annd9

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That would be the most circumstantial of evidence.





There is a very big difference between spreading something you think is true and spreading something you know is not. .

Like many other people I simply can not understand this argument . How can the HEAD of our police force "think" a crime is true and then spread it around ? I'm sure a simple check of his computer would have shown it was totally unfounded .

Everything can not be down to simple negligence and bad practice.

blanch152

Annd9 wrote: »

Like many other people I simply can not understand this argument . How can the HEAD of our police force "think" a crime is true and then spread it around ? I'm sure a simple check of his computer would have shown it was totally unfounded .

Everything can not be down to simple negligence and bad practice.

Well, Tusla had sent the Gardai a false report about McCabe, if Callinan checked his computer, is that what he might have found?

That is if he could check his computer. One thing you are forgetting is data protection. Callinan probably can't check every file.

It is a strange situation but data protection may actually promote whispering campaigns because it has reduced the number of people able to check out facts for themselves (again this is a generic statement, not related to McCabe/Callinan before I am wrongly accused of bias by a biased poster).

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

That is if he could check his computer. One thing you are forgetting is data protection. Callinan probably can't check every file.

So he couldn't check but content to repeat the allegation?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yes there is. Callinan happened to say things about McCabe and there was a Norman Wisdom type chain of occurrences that simply happened to relate to McCabe? Not credible.

No they don't. A smear campaign is smearing a persons name. A police professional spreading unproven rumour is smearing, untrue or not. In, fact even if true, unprofessional and actively smearing. Get up the yard.

You are making conclusions there, and you are entitled to have that opinion. I am not disputing your right to hold that opinion.

Equally, as I am pointing out (in my opinion), your opinion is questionable because it is based on making logical leaps that the Tribunal has yet to establish. Those logical leaps are credible which makes you entitled to your opinion, but there are other credible alternatives as well, which makes other opinions credible too. Being as definitive as you are, is at best premature, and at worst wrongly damning.

I am only pointing out the other credible alternatives in the interests of open debate, not stating them as my opinion, as I am awaiting the judge's conclusion.

I have already set out what a smear campaign consists of. Your statements do not meet that test.

As for "Get up the yard", not suitable for a response, other than to note the level of debate.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So he couldn't check but content to repeat the allegation?

I am not saying that definitively, I am offering an alternative explanation.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That would be the most circumstantial of evidence.

That's why it's not proof of anything so. I take it I'm allowed a take on it though?

Captain Obvious wrote: »

There is a very big difference between spreading something you think is true and spreading something you know is not. One involves deliberate deception.

Both are putting someones reputation is a bad light. Again, it was unproven. Callinan knew this, so that would not make it 'true' in any legal sense and a law and order professional knows better than spreading unproven accusations and gossip, especially with the intent of putting McCabe in a bad light. Callinan wasn't doing a public service.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I don't see any evidence of other Gardaí smearing McCabe at the direction or with the encouragement of Callinan



It looks to me like you are making ad hominem attacks on people who are arguing against you in an attempt to paint their arguments as mostly bias.

I am asking, at this point, do we need further proof there was a smear campaign? IMO it's been shown Callinan had intent to damage McCabe's reputation and other members were engaged in a similar practice.
So IMO, it was either a case of Callinan working to smear McCabe in a vacuum with others doing so on their own or there was a move from on top down to smear McCabe. Either not very good for An Garda and both show a smear campaign being carried out, IMO.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

As for "Get up the yard", not suitable for a response, other than to note the level of debate.

I apologise. I meant to say I don't find your line of questioning believable or genuine.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, Tusla had sent the Gardai a false report about McCabe, if Callinan checked his computer, is that what he might have found?

For all we know, If Callinan had of checked his computer, he might have found that he instructed Tusla to file the report.

I'm not saying he did,( before the usuals head off for the report button)...

What I am saying though, is that I do not believe the spiel about an admin error.

And the way the story has unravelled, nothing would surprise me from the cesspit within the phoenix park. :cool:

Annd9

Was the reopening of the tusla file not after the DPP had dismissed the original case ? It's outrageous to think Callinan did not have access to that information.

James Brown

Annd9 wrote: »

Was the reopening of the tusla file not after the DPP had dismissed the original case ? It's outrageous to think Callinan did not have access to that information.

I would suggest their was a smear campaign from the bottom up. As McCabe's allegations and accusations began to go up a level, so too did the smear campaign. By the time Callinan became aware of McCabe he'd already suffered locally and at mid-level, Callinan was probably the last one to get involved. The idea that O'Sullivan wasn't aware isn't credible to me.
Disclaimer: These are my opinions and not proven fact.

Seth Brundle

An outsider has been offered the role...

The Government has agreed the appointment of Drew Harris as the next Garda Commissioner at a salary of €250,000.

Mr Harris, who is currently the Deputy Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, was chosen following the appointment process run by the Public Appointment Service.

Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan confirmed Mr Harris will take up the position in September, following the retirement of acting commissioner Donal O’Cualain.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/psni-deputy-chief-constable-drew-harris-appointed-garda-commissioner-1.3544241

First 'outsider' to head up An Garda Síochána as Drew Harris takes Commissioner role
Mr Harris is current deputy chief constable of the PSNI
His father was killed by the IRA in 1989

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/first-outsider-to-head-up-an-garda-sochna-as-drew-harris-takes-commissioner-role-37051089.html

Sierra Oscar

Interesting appointment. Sinn Féin had major issues with him in his role with the PSNI. He has an intelligence background and much of his career has been focused on combating the IRA, he is a career police officer and began service under the RUC. His own father was murdered by the IRA.

It'll be great for enhancing co-operating between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána. That's certainly needed. If we are serious about a united Ireland happening in the medium term then we need to start thinking about how we integrate policing north and south.

Owryan

Definitely not a "safe" choice. Hopefully he is able to get to grips with the role and can do something about repairing the damaged reputation that the GS currently has.

golfball37

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Interesting appointment. Sinn Féin had major issues with him in his role with the PSNI. He has an intelligence background and much of his career has been focused on combating the IRA, he is a career police officer and began service under the RUC. His own father was murdered by the IRA.

It'll be great for enhancing co-operating between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána. That's certainly needed. If we are serious about a united Ireland happening in the medium term then we need to start thinking about how we integrate policing north and south.

It’s certainly not an appointment ff will like either, despite what is officially said from mount street

James Brown

I think it's good. We need an outsider with few if any links to current members or ministers. I hope he brings in a team of his own to oversee overhauling. They could do with a few book keepers while they're at it.

I would welcome an outsider into the role, someone who could bring a completely different approach to the job & force.
I don't know why the PSNI are always held up like the best police force in the world because they changed name, uniform & brought in some quotas.

I will give him a chance but he is still too close if you ask me.

Muahahaha

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Looks like the Dept of Justice are testing the water for another in-house choice.

Top garda in Dublin tipped to take over as Commissioner

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-garda-in-dublin-tipped-to-take-over-as-commissioner-37025721.html


Hopefully he proves me wrong (if he gets it) but currently I think it would be completely the wrong choice!

So it seems the cynic in me might have been correct- it looks like security correspondent Tom Brady only wrote that article where he stated that "Mr Leahy is being widely talked about in political circles as the favourite for the top job" because he has his head stuck far up the holes of AGS in the Park. It would be par for the course for Tom Brady who is basically a mouthpiece for whatever AGS want him to report. A PSNI appointment will not suit the likes of Tom Brady, Paul Reynolds or Paul Williams whose entire careers depends on Garda leaks from the Park.

In any case I would give this appointment a cautious welcome. AGS is in bad need of reform and Drew Harris is coming from a force that has undergone perhaps the biggest reform program seen in any police force in the world. So hopefully he knows what he is at. I would also hope that he gets to appoint at least two or three of his own people because I have no doubt that there are dark forces in operation in the Park who will not be impressed by this appointment and will go out of their way to sabotage any reform of AGS.

James Brown

Be nice if the DoJ and Minister of Justice took an interest too.

tayto lover

I hear the new man is very good friends with the last number of Commissioners.
I wonder if that is true? Time will tell and I'll wait and see how he gets on and if he'll make any radical changes.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

I hear the new man is very good friends with the last number of Commissioners.
I wonder if that is true? Time will tell and I'll wait and see how he gets on and if he'll make any radical changes.

Where did you hear that? Any where in the media you can link to?

FTA69

At the time this character was working in the intelligence section of the RUC they were an utterly discredited sectarian force up to their necks in collusion with Loyalists, including Loyalist groups who murdered citizens of this state.

Utter treachery appointing this man as a Garda commissioner but nothing would surprise me when Fine Gael are involved to be honest.

Seth Brundle

FTA69 wrote: »

At the time this character was working in the intelligence section of the RUC they were an utterly discredited sectarian force up to their necks in collusion with Loyalists, including Loyalist groups who murdered citizens of this state.

Utter treachery appointing this man as a Garda commissioner but nothing would surprise me when Fine Gael are involved to be honest.

:rolleyes:

FTA69

Seth Brundle wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Yeah collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries in the murder of Irish citizens is a big eye-roll alright isn't it?

Seth Brundle

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries in the murder of Irish citizens is a big eye-roll alright isn't it?

What evidence anywhere is there that he was involved in collusion?

tayto lover

Miami Massacre survivors not happy with this either.

Muahahaha

tayto lover wrote: »

I hear the new man is very good friends with the last number of Commissioners.
I wonder if that is true? Time will tell and I'll wait and see how he gets on and if he'll make any radical changes.

Not sure about good friends but Id imagine that he knows Callinan and OSullivan fairly well with the co-operation that takes place between AGS and PSNI. Also senior police across Europe go to invite only conferences on security and policing so they definitely meet up with their equivalents from other jurisdictions at least once a year.

FTA69

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What evidence anywhere is there that he was involved in collusion?

I never said he was personally colluding with Loyalists I said he was involved in a force that was.