Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Is willfully concealing evidence of an investigation a crime? I'm not sure. Does it depend on if you are involved or does it carry if you have information could assist but do not bring it forward? Also, if you are the head of the organisation running an investigation and you are impeding it by not giving full disclosure, is that a thing? He could always pull a Francis and say he kinda knew but didn't really or a Charlie with the knew but didn't think it was important. He'll be grand.

Is a priest required to divulge what they hear in the confessional box?

If a Garda sees a bank robbery taking place at the same time as he sees his best friend illegally crossing the road, is he required after he stops the bank robbery to take action against his best friend with the knowledge of the crime that he has?

If I see you tossing an empty Coke bottle on the ground in Croke Park, am I committing a crime by not reporting you?

I would guess that having knowledge of a crime isn't a crime unless you are actively involved in aiding and abetting the crime at the time it happens. Somehow I doubt whether Harris had active knowledge over 40 years ago of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Is a priest required to divulge what they hear in the confessional box?

If a Garda sees a bank robbery taking place at the same time as he sees his best friend illegally crossing the road, is he required after he stops the bank robbery to take action against his best friend with the knowledge of the crime that he has?

If I see you tossing an empty Coke bottle on the ground in Croke Park, am I committing a crime by not reporting you?

I would guess that having knowledge of a crime isn't a crime unless you are actively involved in aiding and abetting the crime at the time it happens. Somehow I doubt whether Harris had active knowledge over 40 years ago of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

The priest analogy is bizarre.

I wasn't sure if Garda had a sworn duty to assist in an investigation by forwarding any pertinent information.

I can see him keeping knowledge of an investigation he is responsible for quiet, therefore hampering that investigation, being a conflict of interest of sorts. In the least showing he's the wrong man for the job anyway. Or he could give hints like 'you're getting warmer...no colder...ice cold' I suppose.

tayto lover

blanch152 wrote: »

Is a priest required to divulge what they hear in the confessional box?

If a Garda sees a bank robbery taking place at the same time as he sees his best friend illegally crossing the road, is he required after he stops the bank robbery to take action against his best friend with the knowledge of the crime that he has?

If I see you tossing an empty Coke bottle on the ground in Croke Park, am I committing a crime by not reporting you?

I would guess that having knowledge of a crime isn't a crime unless you are actively involved in aiding and abetting the crime at the time it happens. Somehow I doubt whether Harris had active knowledge over 40 years ago of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

AH Jaysus Blanch the Garda deals with the robbery first but then deals with the Garda. I think Garda members must act on a crime they know about.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

AH Jaysus Blanch the Garda deals with the robbery first but then deals with the Garda. I think Garda members must act on a crime they know about.

Sadly in talk regarding the government, MoJ or Garda Commissioner saving face, some would argue none of them are even beholden to the lowest basic levels of common or garden civic duty of the everyday citizenry.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sadly in talk regarding the government, MoJ or Garda Commissioner saving face, some would argue none of them are even beholden to the lowest basic levels of common or garden civic duty of the everyday citizenry.

Are you saying no Garda has a basic level of civic duty?

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Are you saying no Garda has a basic level of civic duty?

No, not at all. I honestly don't see how you came to that conclusion. I'm saying some people will not even attribute the expectation of a common sense of civic duty to folk if it'll suit their argument.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

No, not at all. I honestly don't see how you came to that conclusion. I'm saying some people will not even attribute the expectation of a common sense of civic duty to folk if it'll suit their argument.

Ridiculous misrepresentation.

Somebody put forward the idea that it is illegal for a Garda not to take action on any crime that they see and that they must take subsequent action. I pointed out the silly nature of that.

To give another very simple example, every Garda in Dublin must see at least 200 illegal actions by cyclists every day - do they take action on every single one?

I am delighted that the ridiculous court case was summarily dismissed. I can't remember which poster first put it up here, but how anyone thought it would get anywhere is beyond me. Now, the new Commissioner can get on with his job once he takes up office.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Ridiculous misrepresentation.

Somebody put forward the idea that it is illegal for a Garda not to take action on any crime that they see and that they must take subsequent action. I pointed out the silly nature of that.

To give another very simple example, every Garda in Dublin must see at least 200 illegal actions by cyclists every day - do they take action on every single one?

I am delighted that the ridiculous court case was summarily dismissed. I can't remember which poster first put it up here, but how anyone thought it would get anywhere is beyond me. Now, the new Commissioner can get on with his job once he takes up office.

I don't think anyone thought it would succeed. I don't even think it was taken to succeed. This is a prelude to how this stint will go. He is undermined before he begins.
Nice work by the government.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think anyone thought it would succeed. I don't even think it was taken to succeed. This is a prelude to how this stint will go. He is undermined before he begins.
Nice work by the government.

Case dismissed, hardly undermined.

An abuse of the court system to take a case just for show.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Case dismissed, hardly undermined.

An abuse of the court system to take a case just for show.

A hell of a lot of people are disconcerted about his suitability. I would say very undermined.
Not an auspicious beginning to have your appointment challenged and your history pored over by all and sundry.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A hell of a lot of people are disconcerted about his suitability. I would say very undermined.
Not an auspicious beginning to have your appointment challenged and your history pored over by all and sundry.

You mean a handful of posters on here, and a couple of Sinn Fein politicians in the real world?

Hardly amounts to a hell of a lot of people or all and sundry.


Edit: Forgot to say that any appointment of a new Garda Commissioner should disconcert at least some people.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You mean a handful of posters on here, and a couple of Sinn Fein politicians in the real world?

Hardly amounts to a hell of a lot of people or all and sundry.

I read all the disconcerting stuff in our main newspapers. It is out there now. The dice is loaded, lets see how it rolls.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I read all the disconcerting stuff in our main newspapers. It is out there now. The dice is loaded, lets see how it rolls.

All of the "disconcerting stuff" was reporting on the unsubstantiated rubbish that was summarily dismissed by the High Court. Court reporting isn't passing judgment.

I haven't seen a single national newspaper editorial that didn't welcome him.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

All of the "disconcerting stuff" was reporting on the unsubstantiated rubbish that was summarily dismissed by the High Court. Court reporting isn't passing judgment.

I haven't seen a single national newspaper editorial that didn't welcome him.

Editorial and reportage are different things.

Can't remember the last time I read an editorial actually. Tedious enough sorting out the chaff in the journalism and deciding what is fact as well as trying to figure out our esteemed editors agendas.

The facts of who this man is and what he is bringing to the job are out there.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Editorial and reportage are different things.

Can't remember the last time I read an editorial actually. Tedious enough sorting out the chaff in the journalism and deciding what is fact as well as trying to figure out our esteemed editors agendas.

The facts of who this man is and what he is bringing to the job are out there.

No, Francie, the "facts" that were put out there by those taking the court case were summarily dismissed. End of.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

No, Francie, the "facts" that were put out there by those taking the court case were summarily dismissed. End of.

No. The challenge to his appointment was dismissed.
The facts remain as revealed. This man has a track record and it is in the public domain now.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No. The challenge to his appointment was dismissed.
The facts remain as revealed. This man has a track record and it is in the public domain now.

They weren't facts. They were allegations made as part of a court case.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

They weren't facts. They were allegations made as part of a court case.

So are all allegations made in all court cases untrue solely because the court dismissed them?

That would undermine the arguments of a few posters here in other matters.

The court dismissed the challenge to his appointment for the reason YOU posted earlier in the thread.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So are all allegations made in all court cases untrue solely because the court dismissed them?

That would undermine the arguments of a few posters here in other matters.

The court dismissed the challenge to his appointment for the reason YOU posted earlier in the thread.

They are allegations, up to you to prove them to be facts. As I said already, apart from a crank that took a court case, a handful of Sinn Fein politiciains who quickly shut up and a few posters on here, nobody appears to have a problem with his appointment.

Even the Belfast Newsletter has welcomed it.

FrancieBrady

blanch142 wrote:

They are allegations, up to you to prove them to be facts. As I said already, apart from a crank that took a court case, a handful of Sinn Fein politiciains who quickly shut up and a few posters on here, nobody appears to have a problem with his appointment.

Even the Belfast Newsletter has welcomed it.

Read some of the newspaper comment and groups concerned about this man's independence expressing problems (that you say are the preserve of SF and posters on here) and you will see concerns based on the facts of this man's career heretofore.

you can claim all you like that everyone (bar some posters here and SF) has welcomed this appointment but that clearly isn't the case.





https://www.businesspost.ie/opinion/garda-chief-appointment-potentially-puts-state-risk-423825

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/analysis-garda-commissioner-appointment-like-man-city-signing-the-man-utd-manager-852174.html

https://relativesforjustice.com/rfj-responds-to-appointment-of-new-garda-commissioner/

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Read some of the newspaper comment and groups concerned about this man's independence expressing problems (that you say are the preserve of SF and posters on here) and you will see concerns based on the facts of this man's career heretofore.

you can claim all you like that everyone (bar some posters here and SF) has welcomed this appointment but that clearly isn't the case.





https://www.businesspost.ie/opinion/garda-chief-appointment-potentially-puts-state-risk-423825

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/analysis-garda-commissioner-appointment-like-man-city-signing-the-man-utd-manager-852174.html

https://relativesforjustice.com/rfj-responds-to-appointment-of-new-garda-commissioner/

Read the Examiner article, couldn't access the Sunday Business Post one as behind a paywall.

Didn't see any real concern there. Describing the security issue as fascinating isn't really expressing concern. Can't see any support for your position there.

Relatives for Justice are a lobby group, can't really see any independent judgment coming from them. You can add them to my very short list of concerned people.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Read the Examiner article, couldn't access the Sunday Business Post one as behind a paywall.

Didn't see any real concern there. Describing the security issue as fascinating isn't really expressing concern. Can't see any support for your position there.

Relatives for Justice are a lobby group, can't really see any independent judgment coming from them. You can add them to my very short list of concerned people.

'Independent judgement'?


I can see why their experiences in dealing with this man would not concern somebody who has shown no interest in finding out what one side in the conflict/war did here. But they are very worrying to some all the same. Has a government with a track record of fabulously messing up this appointment, messed up again?

We shall see how he performs, but I stick to my assertion that he is off to the worst of starts...or pre-starts.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Ridiculous misrepresentation.

Somebody put forward the idea that it is illegal for a Garda not to take action on any crime that they see and that they must take subsequent action. I pointed out the silly nature of that.

To give another very simple example, every Garda in Dublin must see at least 200 illegal actions by cyclists every day - do they take action on every single one?

I am delighted that the ridiculous court case was summarily dismissed. I can't remember which poster first put it up here, but how anyone thought it would get anywhere is beyond me. Now, the new Commissioner can get on with his job once he takes up office.

Thankfully we live in a world were many people will do the decent and correct thing even if not legally required to do so. If only more politicians were in that number.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Thankfully we live in a world were many people will do the decent and correct thing even if not legally required to do so. If only more politicians were in that number.

Here is a Minister doing the decent and correct thing:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/hes-an-irishman-not-an-outsider-justice-minister-rejects-concerns-about-new-garda-chief-37268913.html?utm_source=outbrain_top_drawer&utm_medium=outbrain&utm_campaign=Outbrain%20On%20Site

When asked if Mr Harris had secured his Irish passport to date the minister said: "Drew Harris is an Irishman.

"He served with distinction in Northern Ireland in very difficult circumstances, saw first hand the Troubles on the island of Ireland with the loss of his father."

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Here is a Minister doing the decent and correct thing:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/hes-an-irishman-not-an-outsider-justice-minister-rejects-concerns-about-new-garda-chief-37268913.html?utm_source=outbrain_top_drawer&utm_medium=outbrain&utm_campaign=Outbrain%20On%20Site

When asked if Mr Harris had secured his Irish passport to date the minister said: "Drew Harris is an Irishman.

"He served with distinction in Northern Ireland in very difficult circumstances, saw first hand the Troubles on the island of Ireland with the loss of his father."

Willie Frazer is an Irishman too, as anyone born on the island is.

That wasn't the question the minister was asked though.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Here is a Minister doing the decent and correct thing:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/hes-an-irishman-not-an-outsider-justice-minister-rejects-concerns-about-new-garda-chief-37268913.html?utm_source=outbrain_top_drawer&utm_medium=outbrain&utm_campaign=Outbrain%20On%20Site

When asked if Mr Harris had secured his Irish passport to date the minister said: "Drew Harris is an Irishman.

"He served with distinction in Northern Ireland in very difficult circumstances, saw first hand the Troubles on the island of Ireland with the loss of his father."

Sidestepping and avoiding the question yeah?

Like Francie, Flanagan wasn't asked if he was an Irishman, anyone born on the island of Ireland can consider themselves an Irish man or woman.

Personally I think it's irreverent what passport he has, but what's up with Flanagan avoiding the question

FrancieBrady

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Sidestepping and avoiding the question yeah?

Like Francie, Flanagan wasn't asked if he was an Irishman, anyone born on the island of Ireland can consider themselves an Irish man or woman.

Personally I think it's irreverent what passport he has, but what's up with Flanagan avoiding the question

Who stipulated that he should have an Irish passport anyway?
You are correct, it would mean very little.

Seth Brundle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Willie Frazer is an Irishman too, as anyone born on the island is.

That wasn't the question the minister was asked though.

Is the nationality of the person an issue here?
IMO it was simply a snide way of checking if he would be loyal to the job.

FrancieBrady

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Is the nationality of the person an issue here?
IMO it was simply a snide way of checking if he would be loyal to the job.

Well it seems it was the Government namely Leo Varadkar, who made it an issue, and then the minister refused to answer the question when asked. Odd.

The Government later confirmed Mr Harris was a dual Irish-British citizen by virtue of being born in the North and that he had applied for an Irish passport.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/my-focus-is-on-keeping-people-of-ireland-safe-says-next-garda-commissioner-drew-harris-472418.html

Tbf, his nationality shouldn't be an issue, & I don't believe it is.
AGS actually need a lot more non nationals as members.
I think the issue most people have is the fact that his career to now has been in the ruc & psni.
And the problems that may bring