Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

Ordinary members of the public doing their job as gardai and tusla officials are fair game for the likes of Wallace, Daly and Doherty,........

Sorry, but could you substantiate that remark?

blanch152

Muahahaha wrote: »

I am just interested into why Harrisons allegation the facilitation of iheroin dealing by a Garda dectective in Athlone was completely overlooked by Fine Gael when they framed the terms of reference?

Are you saying Harrison was lying about this episode? If he was then why did Fine Gael / Dept.of Justice / An Gardai not have it included in the terms of reference.

Trafficking of heroin by Gardai has already happened. Would you not think that investigating another instance of this should be a priority for any Minister of Justice ?

No, why would we indulge someone who has already been found by a Tribunal to be a sinister version of Walter Mitty?

I mean, I could make all sorts of allegations about all sorts of people - does that mean there should be a Tribunal everytime someone alleges something?

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

Sorry, but could you substantiate that remark?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/the-tds-who-backed-keith-harrison-36372197.html

"Mick Wallace TD raised Gda Harrison's case in January, and later said: "As soon as Keith Harrison put his head above the parapet, he got barraged from all angles by the hierarchy of the force, which had not changed its spots.""

"Clare Daly asked: "Harrison, a member of the Garda? Senior management pressured his girlfriend into making a complaint against him. He had to go to the High Court to stop an action against him..."

"Pearse Doherty was raising matters relating to Garda Harrison. "Garda Keith Harrison claims that as a result of arresting a member of the drugs unit in Athlone for drunk driving, that Garda management maliciously set out targeting him, while the arrested garda was afforded protection by Garda management."

The people that Doherty, Daly and Wallace are maliciously maligning in those quotes are ordinary members of the public working in Tusla and the Gardai, doing honest jobs every day and they deserve at least the courtesy of an apology but if those politicians have any decency in them, those honest hardworking public officials deserve a lot more than that.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

No, why would we indulge someone who has already been found by a Tribunal to be a sinister version of Walter Mitty?

I mean, I could make all sorts of allegations about all sorts of people - does that mean there should be a Tribunal everytime someone alleges something?

So FG decided on this before a Tribunal took place?

Sounds par for the course that.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So FG decided on this before a Tribunal took place?

Sounds par for the course that.

I find it absolutely incredible that anyone is giving Gda Harrison any credibility following the release of that Tribunal report.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I find it absolutely incredible that anyone is giving Gda Harrison any credibility following the release of that Tribunal report.

We are talking about something that was decided on before the tribunal took place.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are talking about something that was decided on before the tribunal took place.

Yes, Gda Harrison had some detailed accusations about how he was treated himself as well as some even more fantastical accusations about Athlone.

The government decided to leave the fantasy Athlone ones out of the ToRs, which of course doesn't prevent them being added at a later stage. So they saved the State some money.

Unless of course, you are now suggesting, in the light of the Tribunal report on the Harrison module, and the credibility that he still has, that the Athlone accusations should now be added to the ToRs. That would be an incredible bizarre conclusion to reach.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Unless of course, you are now suggesting, in the light of the Tribunal report on the Harrison module, and the credibility that he still has, that the Athlone accusations should now be added to the ToRs. That would be an incredible bizarre conclusion to reach.

Just a question, but you from Athlone blanch?

Water John

The Athlone Branch of FG?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, Gda Harrison had some detailed accusations about how he was treated himself as well as some even more fantastical accusations about Athlone.

The government decided to leave the fantasy Athlone ones out of the ToRs, which of course doesn't prevent them being added at a later stage. So they saved the State some money.

Unless of course, you are now suggesting, in the light of the Tribunal report on the Harrison module, and the credibility that he still has, that the Athlone accusations should now be added to the ToRs. That would be an incredible bizarre conclusion to reach.

I'm wondering, like others, how they managed to decide they were 'fantastical' without an investigation.
Could you possibly deal with that? Without hindsight.

Water John

Some politicians have excellent olifactory skills. They can sniff out, what is true and what is not true, without having to investigate it. Great savings to the public purse.

Hitman3000

Water John wrote:

The Athlone Branch of FG?

No John I was genuinely curious as is he/she from Athlone. It's my home town and I know some of the crap that has gone down with the guards there. Harrison is.. well I won't say but there is another whistle blower based there has genuine issues.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Just a question, but you from Athlone blanch?

Water John wrote: »

The Athlone Branch of FG?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm wondering, like others, how they managed to decide they were 'fantastical' without an investigation.
Could you possibly deal with that? Without hindsight.

Water John wrote: »

Some politicians have excellent olifactory skills. They can sniff out, what is true and what is not true, without having to investigate it. Great savings to the public purse.

Well obviously, our friends Daly, Wallace and Doherty's olifactory skills let them down this time as they tied themselves to a charlatan and a liar in Garda Harrison.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Well obviously, our friends Daly, Wallace and Doherty's olifactory skills let them down this time as they tied themselves to a charlatan and a liar in Garda Harrison.

Considering the behaviour of FG meps last week, the independents can still claim the high moral ground. Btw you didn't answer my question, are you from Athlone?

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Considering the behaviour of FG meps last week, the independents can still claim the high moral ground. Btw you didn't answer my question, are you from Athlone?

I don't have to answer any questions about my personal life outside of boards.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Well obviously, our friends Daly, Wallace and Doherty's olifactory skills let them down this time as they tied themselves to a charlatan and a liar in Garda Harrison.

Why do you hate politicians doing their jobs?
They may have been proved wrong in this case but they clearly have done incredible work in others.
Governmental incompetence has led to debilitating mistrust of garda management, and rather than wanting to fix that you seem to want to denigrate the only avenues available too call them to account.
That is not the mark of a democrat.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

I don't have to answer any questions about my personal life outside of boards.

Of course you don't, so by your silence though I can assume you haven't a clue about what went on in Athlone but wish to use Harrison as a stick to beat Ind TD's with.

Hitman3000

FrancieBrady wrote:

Why do you hate politicians doing their jobs? They may have been proved wrong in this case but they clearly have done incredible work in others. Governmental incompetence has led to debilitating mistrust of garda management, and rather than wanting to fix that you seem to want to denigrate the only avenues available too call them to account. That is not the mark of a democrat.

He/She only hates certain TD's doing their jobs.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why do you hate politicians doing their jobs?
They may have been proved wrong in this case but they clearly have done incredible work in others.
Governmental incompetence has led to debilitating mistrust of garda management, and rather than wanting to fix that you seem to want to denigrate the only avenues available too call them to account.
That is not the mark of a democrat.

They didn't do their job in this case. This wasn't something simple like forgetting a few emails. They abused Tusla officials and Gardai from a privileged position in the Dail based on false information. Shouldn't they resign?

Water John

Just to correct the record. Emails were, not forgotten but deliberately withheld from a Tribunal of the State, set up by Parliament.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

They didn't do their job in this case. This wasn't something simple like forgetting a few emails. They abused Tusla officials and Gardai from a privileged position in the Dail based on false information. Shouldn't they resign?

Can you cite those occasions of abuse? As an aside you are familiar with Dail privilege. The FG minister mislead the Dail not the same thing.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

He/She only hates certain TD's doing their jobs.

Not at all.

Our friends Daly, Wallace and Doherty have been shown to be badly mistaken about Garda Harrison, their accusations against Alan Shatter have been thrown out by court after court.

They remind of the old phrase that if you throw enough ****, some of it will stick. There is no discernment, there is no filtering, there is a default view that anyone who is a public servant, especially a public servant in a management position is wrong. Thankfully this Tribunal has shown them up for what they are - a group of left-wing whingers with no good to say about anyone.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Can you cite those occasions of abuse? As an aside you are familiar with Dail privilege. The FG minister mislead the Dail not the same thing.

Yes, I am familiar with Dail privilege.

It allows charlatans in the Dail to throw around false accusations, to make highbrow statements that are built on foundations of sand, to generally accuse and abuse public officials without fear of reprisal.

Those public officials falsely accused by Daly, Wallace and Doherty have had their good name vindicated and the very least they are owed is an apology. It is astonishing that some people on here defend this situation.

Water John

I think somebody should give you a copy of Mick Clifford's book for Christmas, Blanch. If you have any humanity, you will see how people can be terribly wronged, by the State.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

They didn't do their job in this case. This wasn't something simple like forgetting a few emails. They abused Tusla officials and Gardai from a privileged position in the Dail based on false information. Shouldn't they resign?

Their job is to call to account. The Dail system is adversarial. They accuse and the government defend even if it is indefensible. And I don't have to provide examples of this government defending the indefensible before allowing an investigation or tribunal.
That is how the system works.
You'll be looking for barristers to apologise for doing their jobs next.

This is not really a sustainable way to take the focus off FG blanch. It reeks of hypocrisy.

blanch152

Water John wrote: »

Just to correct the record. Emails were, not forgotten but deliberately withheld from a Tribunal of the State, set up by Parliament.

That is an accusation, it is not a fact.

It is a matter for the Tribunal to decide.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Their job is to call to account. The Dail system is adversarial. They accuse and the government defend even if it is indefensible. And I don't have to provide examples of this government defending the indefensible before allowing an investigation or tribunal.
That is how the system works.
You'll be looking for barristers to apologise for doing their jobs next.

This is not really a sustainable way to take the focus off FG blanch. It reeks of hypocrisy.

It isn't their job to maliciously and falsely accuse public officials of wrongdoing. They went well over the top on this one, it wasn't just a case of calling people to account, it was a lot more than that, and in the rush to get front page headlines, those TDs did the State a disservice.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Those public officials falsely accused by Daly, Wallace and Doherty have had their good name vindicated and the very least they are owed is an apology. It is astonishing that some people on here defend this situation.

What public officials? the TD's you despise so much are also the only ones who supported M McCabe.

Water John

Along with the left winger John McGuinness PAC Chairman.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It isn't their job to maliciously and falsely accuse public officials of wrongdoing. They went well over the top on this one, it wasn't just a case of calling people to account, it was a lot more than that, and in the rush to get front page headlines, those TDs did the State a disservice.

TD's in grandstanding shocker?

There job is to bring issues before the Dail and call to account.
If you don't like opposition doing their job, dictatorship is your only option.

blanch152

Water John wrote: »

I think somebody should give you a copy of Mick Clifford's book for Christmas, Blanch. If you have any humanity, you will see how people can be terribly wronged, by the State.

Of course, people can be terribly wronged by the State. Those officials falsely and maliciously accused by Garda Harrison are a clear example of those who have been terribly wronged by agents of the State in the form of those who agreed to have a Tribunal in response to the weasel words of Daly and Wallace. There was no evidence.

http://www.thejournal.ie/utter-nonsense-keith-harrison-3726590-Nov2017/

"One such instance is Harrison’s account of his relationship with Sergeant David Durkin.
Harrison said that a serious level of malice had built up towards him at Donegal Garda Station. Justice Charleton said that “he ascribes this to the oversight of Sergeant Durkin, saying that he would treat other gardaí differently to him and that ‘as the months went on there was always a hostile reception’ where he was discriminated against by not being offered overtime”.
The tribunal is satisfied that this is nonsense…. He [Durkin] was put in the unfortunate position of having Garda Keith Harrison under his command. He did absolutely nothing wrong and all of the allegations of Garda Keith Harrison are rejected.
‘Not reliable’"


Is Sergeant David Durkin going to get an apology from the huckster in a pink shirt?

"“Chief Superintendent Sheridan would have been perfectly entitled to have called him ‘underhanded’ and ‘deceitful’,” the judge said."

Wow, just wow.

"Unequivocally, confidently, and often brutally, Mr Justice Charleton has dismissed the claims made by Garda Keith Harrison.
“All of the allegations… are entirely without validity,” he said."

http://www.thejournal.ie/disclosures-keith-harrison-report-3726521-Nov2017/


"Justice Peter Charleton continues:
There is another side to this. The allegations which they made must have taken a considerable emotional toll on several of the multiple persons accused by them of very serious misconduct.
It is appropriate here to exonerate everyone in social services and in policing accused by them of discreditable conduct.
That is the only possible conclusion to the tribunal’s enquiry. It is also amply corroborated by the supporting evidence analysed in this report.
The Tribunal chairman is critical of Garda Harrison’s behaviour and claims throughout the report, describing some of his claims against his garda colleagues as “nonsense”."

Where is the apology for the emotional toll on several of the multiple persons accused of very serious misconduct? Where is the apology to all of those exonerated by the Tribunal?

It is time that the likes of Wallace, Daly and Doherty learn that their ranting and raving in the Dail has real victims and that there are consequences to that.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Where is the apology for the emotional toll on several of the multiple persons accused of very serious misconduct? Where is the apology to all of those exonerated by the Tribunal?

They were exonerated by the Tribunal, so other than trying to score points off certain TD's what's your issue?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Of course, people can be terribly wronged by the State. Those officials falsely and maliciously accused by Garda Harrison are a clear example of those who have been terribly wronged by agents of the State in the form of those who agreed to have a Tribunal in response to the weasel words of Daly and Wallace. There was no evidence.

http://www.thejournal.ie/utter-nonsense-keith-harrison-3726590-Nov2017/

"One such instance is Harrison’s account of his relationship with Sergeant David Durkin.
Harrison said that a serious level of malice had built up towards him at Donegal Garda Station. Justice Charleton said that “he ascribes this to the oversight of Sergeant Durkin, saying that he would treat other gardaí differently to him and that ‘as the months went on there was always a hostile reception’ where he was discriminated against by not being offered overtime”.
The tribunal is satisfied that this is nonsense…. He [Durkin] was put in the unfortunate position of having Garda Keith Harrison under his command. He did absolutely nothing wrong and all of the allegations of Garda Keith Harrison are rejected.
‘Not reliable’"


Is Sergeant David Durkin going to get an apology from the huckster in a pink shirt?

"“Chief Superintendent Sheridan would have been perfectly entitled to have called him ‘underhanded’ and ‘deceitful’,” the judge said."

Wow, just wow.

"Unequivocally, confidently, and often brutally, Mr Justice Charleton has dismissed the claims made by Garda Keith Harrison.
“All of the allegations… are entirely without validity,” he said."

http://www.thejournal.ie/disclosures-keith-harrison-report-3726521-Nov2017/


"Justice Peter Charleton continues:
There is another side to this. The allegations which they made must have taken a considerable emotional toll on several of the multiple persons accused by them of very serious misconduct.
It is appropriate here to exonerate everyone in social services and in policing accused by them of discreditable conduct.
That is the only possible conclusion to the tribunal’s enquiry. It is also amply corroborated by the supporting evidence analysed in this report.
The Tribunal chairman is critical of Garda Harrison’s behaviour and claims throughout the report, describing some of his claims against his garda colleagues as “nonsense”."

Where is the apology for the emotional toll on several of the multiple persons accused of very serious misconduct? Where is the apology to all of those exonerated by the Tribunal?

It is time that the likes of Wallace, Daly and Doherty learn that their ranting and raving in the Dail has real victims and that there are consequences to that.

Dail business allows for this. A TD has to be allowed to take an issue they believe in and pursue it. That is why we have 'Dail privilege'.
How else would this whole issue have come to this? A huge service to the state.

And maybe, like a lot of people, Wallace etc believed the burden of proof had been satisfied.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

They were exonerated by the Tribunal, so other than trying to score points off certain TD's what's your issue?

It is quite simple. The government was rightly held to account over Garda McCabe and the likes of Leo Varadkar was fulsome in his multiple apologies for his treatment.

It behoves Wallace, Daly and Doherty to follow suit in apologising to Durkin et al.

Of course, expecting the likes of Wallace (didn't pay his taxes or his workers' pensions) or Doherty (supported Garda-killers) to do the right and decent thing may well be a very forlorn hope, but I would expect that the denziens of boards would at least expect that of them.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It is quite simple. The government was rightly held to account over Garda McCabe and the likes of Leo Varadkar was fulsome in his multiple apologies for his treatment.

It behoves Wallace, Daly and Doherty to follow suit in apologising to Durkin et al.

Of course, expecting the likes of Wallace (didn't pay his taxes or his workers' pensions) or Doherty (supported Garda-killers) to do the right and decent thing may well be a very forlorn hope, but I would expect that the denziens of boards would at least expect that of them.

After the last two weeks, something tells me the McCabe family would find the lipservice apologies a tad hollow.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

It behoves Wallace, Daly and Doherty to follow suit in apologising to Durkin et al.

Why, despite what you wish they acted in good faith. When was the last time a FGer could be accused of the same?

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Why, despite what you wish they acted in good faith. When was the last time a FGer could be accused of the same?

Well, that's the thing, Frances Fitzgerald acted in good faith, so did Alan Shatter and Enda Kenny, but they don't get a pass from you, do they?

gizmo555

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, that's the thing, Frances Fitzgerald acted in good faith ...

She knew the Garda Commissioner was going to attack Maurice McCabe's character at the O'Higgins inquiry on the basis of allegations of child sex abuse that she and the Commissioner were fully aware were unfounded. She did nothing about this, but was simultaneously making public statements about how much she and the Commissioner valued Sgt McCabe's service to the country. And that's acting in "good faith"? If you say so ...

Seth Brundle

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, that's the thing, Frances Fitzgerald acted in good faith, so did Alan Shatter and Enda Kenny, but they don't get a pass from you, do they?

Ara would you stop! It's getting boring now.
She acted with no concern at all for McCabe. The only person she looked to defend and protect was NOS when everyone else saw that she should go.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

Well, that's the thing, Frances Fitzgerald acted in good faith, so did Alan Shatter and Enda Kenny, but they don't get a pass from you, do they?

Fitzgerald acted in good faith? You joking right?
Shatter acted in good faith when he shared confidential information about a political rival.
Kenny acted in good faith with the outrageous story he told the Dail about the advice he gave Zappone regarding her meeting with McCabe.
You are a seriously deluded individual. Pointless engaging further with you only to say your comments are more suited to the Journal tbh.

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Hitman and Walter John, play the ball not the man

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, that's the thing, Frances Fitzgerald acted in good faith, so did Alan Shatter and Enda Kenny, but they don't get a pass from you, do they?

Hopefully that's for the authorities, (is there any point actually?) to decide. In fact Fine Gael have destroyed or at least presided over the destruction of the public concept or belief in impartial, transparency regarding the state and it's role in law, decency and fair play. Well done the law and order party.

She forgot very important information and for the period she remembered, did nothing regarding it. At best she's forgetful and very bad at her job.
If there's any semblance of justice, we'll see an investigation with teeth into all the players.

Odhinn

"The Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan has asked the Policing Authority to begin the process for the selection and appointment of a new permanent Garda Commissioner."
"It will be an open competition with no restrictions on the nationality of the candidate.

Mr Flanagan said that policing experience, while desirable, would not be an essential requirement."
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1212/926913-process-begins-to-find-new-garda-commissioner/

Certainly the cynical might say that experience would be a hindrance, given the way things are done here.

Seth Brundle

With a salary of €250k (an increase on previously) I can't see too many people with relevant experience of running large enterprise organisations lining up, never mind someone who is willing to take on the corruption and rot within.
Bet the successful candidate comes from within!

Odhinn

kbannon wrote: »

With a salary of €250k (an increase on previously) I can't see too many people with relevant experience of running large enterprise organisations lining up, never mind someone who is willing to take on the corruption and rot within.
Bet the successful candidate comes from within!

Very dissapointing from the FF spokesperson on Justice this morning - didn't see the need for a clear out of top management, didn't see the need to remove the security responsibility from the Gardai - very conservative overall.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

Very dissapointing from the FF spokesperson on Justice this morning - didn't see the need for a clear out of top management, didn't see the need to remove the security responsibility from the Gardai - very conservative overall.

Maybe just being practical.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Maybe just being practical.

Not really. There's little point in grafting a new head on a diseased body.

James Brown

There's complaints about inefficiencies in health linked to bad policies, over staffing/pay etc. With the Garda we've recorded incompetence, fraudulent recordings, bad management of budgets, cronyism and on and on.

It's become very clear that the Garda is a politics heavy organisation. Like most things our politicians don't seem to want to make any big changes. Happy with a lick of paint and toothless investigation. Just complain about how bad the whole thing is, change nothing and move on.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

Not really. There's little point in grafting a new head on a diseased body.

Little point in leaving one of the most important organisations without a rudder while you look for an entire management team you think might be palatable.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Little point in leaving one of the most important organisations without a rudder while you look for an entire management team you think might be palatable.

.....rather strange way of looking at it. A lot of these people were appointed and worked alongside O'Sullivan/Callinan. It's only logical they go.