Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Little point in leaving one of the most important organisations without a rudder while you look for an entire management team you think might be palatable.

If it's a temp position while the organisation is ripped apart and reassembled, fair enough. They can also tackle the, 'it was like that when I got here' Justice department right up to Ministerial level.
It's almost amusing that the Taoiseach believes the DOJ is not fit for purpose, like they just got the keys this morning. I'm sure he'll get right on it....

Odhinn

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If it's a temp position while the organisation is ripped apart and reassembled, fair enough. They can also tackle the, 'it was like that when I got here' Justice department right up to Ministerial level.
It's almost amusing that the Taoiseach believes the DOJ is not fit for purpose, like they just got the keys this morning. I'm sure he'll get right on it....

Whatever about Ms O'Sullivan, the fact is - and I can't over emphasise this - that Martin Callinan brooked absolutely no "disloyalty" whatsover. It follows that those that flourished near and under him are compromised.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

.....rather strange way of looking at it. A lot of these people were appointed and worked alongside O'Sullivan/Callinan. It's only logical they go.

Odhinn wrote: »

Whatever about Ms O'Sullivan, the fact is - and I can't over emphasise this - that Martin Callinan brooked absolutely no "disloyalty" whatsover. It follows that those that flourished near and under him are compromised.

Even if they have done nothing wrong? Guild by association? Yeah, that's a great message to instill into the force from the top down.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Even if they have done nothing wrong? Guild by association? Yeah, that's a great message to instill into the force from the top down.

The hierarchy threw the ordinary members under the bus regards the breath tests.
As it stand the problem is cronyism and protectionism. The whole shower need replacing if possible. There's no guilt as such, they are found sub par as an organisation and need a complete refit. How they treated McCabe shows it's an institutional issue not one or two bad apples.

Water John

Jim O'Callaghan is a Barrister and thus an insider, largely.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Even if they have done nothing wrong? Guild by association? Yeah, that's a great message to instill into the force from the top down.

They were active and flourished under martin callinan. This does indeed raise questions about them. He did not operate in a vaccum - he was not some office clerk in a cubicle whose actions were not aided and abetted by others. He dictated culture, and rewarded those who corresponded with his own values. The wider public is only beginning to see what those "values" are now.

Water John

Those cronies will most likely retire early when the wind blows a different way. That may be part of the thinking. Also, with the earlier retirement in the Guards, it leads to an accelerated turnover.

Odhinn

Water John wrote: »

Those cronies will most likely retire early when the wind blows a different way. That may be part of the thinking. Also, with the earlier retirement in the Guards, it leads to an accelerated turnover.

You'd hope so, but why depend on hope? Clean sweep is needed at this stage. It was enough of a disgrace that O'Sullivan got the job after him, I don't think anything else should be left to chance.

Seth Brundle

Looks like the DoJ don't want an outsider with these weak theories...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/civilian-might-not-be-regarded-as-real-garda-commissioner-1.3326602

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

They were active and flourished under martin callinan. This does indeed raise questions about them. He did not operate in a vaccum - he was not some office clerk in a cubicle whose actions were not aided and abetted by others. He dictated culture, and rewarded those who corresponded with his own values. The wider public is only beginning to see what those "values" are now.

Raise questions all you want but you're advocating they be forced out of their jobs with no cause and with no replacement. Aside from the moral and legal consequences of this, who do you suggest will run the organisation while the search for their replacements goes on?

kbannon wrote: »

Looks like the DoJ don't want an outsider with these weak theories...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/civilian-might-not-be-regarded-as-real-garda-commissioner-1.3326602

I doubt that'd be an issue. The office of the commissioner has basically been an arm of the government for the last while so it'd wouldn't be much of a change to just put a non-garda there. There would be an issue with their lack of knowledge and experience in actual policing but it's nothing that isn't already faced by the organisation when dealing things like procurement and things like that.

Seth Brundle

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I doubt that'd be an issue. The office of the commissioner has basically been an arm of the government for the last while so it'd wouldn't be much of a change to just put a non-garda there. There would be an issue with their lack of knowledge and experience in actual policing but it's nothing that isn't already faced by the organisation when dealing things like procurement and things like that.

I don't disagree with you.
What I'm reading between the lines is that the DoJ appear to want someone who from within the ranks and therefore someone they presumably already are familiar with.
Fear of change in St. Stephen's Green?

Captain Obvious

kbannon wrote: »

I don't disagree with you.
What I'm reading between the lines is that the DoJ appear to want someone who from within the ranks and therefore someone they presumably already are familiar with.
Fear of change in St. Stephen's Green?

It'll be the commission that selects them won't it though?

Water John

Once it was signalled that the force wasn't going to be split in two, this was the natural follow on.
As always, you largely dictate who gets the job, by the spec you write into the tender.

Seth Brundle

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It'll be the commission that selects them won't it though?

The Policing Authority interview the candidates and nominate their preference.
Still, the DoJ appear to be lobbying IMO!

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Raise questions all you want but you're advocating they be forced out of their jobs with no cause and with no replacement. Aside from the moral and legal consequences of this, who do you suggest will run the organisation while the search for their replacements goes on?



I doubt that'd be an issue. The office of the commissioner has basically been an arm of the government for the last while so it'd wouldn't be much of a change to just put a non-garda there. There would be an issue with their lack of knowledge and experience in actual policing but it's nothing that isn't already faced by the organisation when dealing things like procurement and things like that.

Woukd that give any creedence to Murphy and others claims of political policing?

Captain Obvious

kbannon wrote: »

The Policing Authority interview the candidates and nominate their preference.
Still, the DoJ appear to be lobbying IMO!

Sorry I meant the Authority not the Commission. Didn't they put forward Pat Leahy? They seem to be doing a good job of getting non-political candidates through.

Captain Obvious

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Woukd that give any creedence to Murphy and others claims of political policing?

Not in the way they were suggesting, no.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Not in the way they were suggesting, no.

If the commissioners office was basically an arm of the govt, it'd be kinda hard to separate them.

Captain Obvious

Rick Shaw wrote: »

If the commissioners office was basically an arm of the govt, it'd be kinda hard to separate them.

Murphy was blaming political interference on his arrest for the Jobstown thing. That's just nonsense. That kind of thing is always going to be investigated locally. The political interference with policing in Ireland is all down to opitcs and statistics.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Raise questions all you want but you're advocating they be forced out of their jobs with no cause and with no replacement. Aside from the moral and legal consequences of this, who do you suggest will run the organisation while the search for their replacements goes on?

Clear outs of high level management are common when there is regime change at the top. A phased removal and series of promotions will ensure the place trundles on.

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

Clear outs of high level management are common when there is regime change at the top. A phased removal and series of promotions will ensure the place trundles on.

"Hey guys, we're going to sack you all because you knew the previous boss. If you could all stay in your positions from which you can already safely retire from while we find someone else to replace you that'd be great."

Let's leave aside, for the minute, the legality or morality of it. After you've removed anyone with Garda experience from the top management positions, who is going to help the new management step into the role? What effect on the rest of the staff do you think screwing over the top management and cutting off promotion from the lower tiers will have? There's already an issue in the rank and file from all the experienced people that jumped ship when they changed the pension rules a few years back.

I get it, you want to treat it like some regular company but it is nothing at all like that. It's a vital organisation that cannot be simply turned on its head because you'd like to start over.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

"Hey guys, we're going to sack you all because you knew the previous boss. If you could all stay in your positions from which you can already safely retire from while we find someone else to replace you that'd be great."

Let's leave aside, for the minute, the legality or morality of it. After you've removed anyone with Garda experience from the top management positions, who is going to help the new management step into the role? What effect on the rest of the staff do you think screwing over the top management and cutting off promotion from the lower tiers will have? There's already an issue in the rank and file from all the experienced people that jumped ship when they changed the pension rules a few years back.

I get it, you want to treat it like some regular company but it is nothing at all like that. It's a vital organisation that cannot be simply turned on its head because you'd like to start over.

It's done all over the world, in policing and military organisations. You evidently haven't come across it, however thats neither here nor there.

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

It's done all over the world, in policing and military organisations. You evidently haven't come across it, however thats neither here nor there.

Neither have I, do you have a link to an example? I know it has happened a couple of times in China all right, Mugabe got rid of a few as well, as did the various Kims in North Korea, but other than that, which OECD countries have had a purge of senior policing and military officials?

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

It's done all over the world, in policing and military organisations. You evidently haven't come across it, however thats neither here nor there.

It being done somewhere else does not mean it would work here. Can you say what country's example you would wish to follow if we were to go that way?

Captain Obvious

blanch152 wrote: »

Neither have I, do you have a link to an example? I know it has happened a couple of times in China all right, Mugabe got rid of a few as well, as did the various Kims in North Korea, but other than that, which OECD countries have had a purge of senior policing and military officials?

Turkey?

blanch152

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Turkey?

That is right. Erdogan even wanted to bring back the death penalty to deal with errant military officials.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-coup-erdogan-government-death-penalty-restore-attempted-istanbul-ankara-latest-dead-a7140391.html

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Neither have I, do you have a link to an example? I know it has happened a couple of times in China all right, Mugabe got rid of a few as well, as did the various Kims in North Korea, but other than that, which OECD countries have had a purge of senior policing and military officials?

It happens in Ireland every four years or so. Sometimes intermittently. Why we had a second in command replaced only the other week. Didn't some Garda lad who spoke up get moved to traffic?
When a new regime comes in or the current feels the need for a shuffle all the top positions in government are up for grabs, including their cronies and administrative side kicks. This isn't saying the previous position holders where all criminals or all incompetent, simply somebody in charge feels a change would be better.
I do not see why the Garda should be any different especially with the revelations of incompetence and cronyism.

Bringing in North Korea etc. is base level distraction. Varadkar was only slagging off the DOJ the other week, mind he left Flanagan in situ...I suppose he's moved on to something else by now, people who don't rake the grass after cutting it or that.
Doing nothing to tackle health because hands are tied, unions something something is tired, but don't the government have authority in some areas? Maybe the PBP LA's are blocking it? The commie scallywags.

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

Neither have I, do you have a link to an example? I know it has happened a couple of times in China all right, Mugabe got rid of a few as well, as did the various Kims in North Korea, but other than that, which OECD countries have had a purge of senior policing and military officials?

Reductio ab absurdam - I refer you to Matt Barretts post. Change of staff at the top is necessary to change the culture. My question is why are you defending the very people who allowed Callinan function as he did?

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

Reductio ab absurdam - I refer you to Matt Barretts post. Change of staff at the top is necessary to change the culture.

No it isn't. Change of directions and orders is all that's needed. The staff at the top only need to be replaced if they cannot do that.

Odhinn wrote: »

My question is why are you defending the very people who allowed Callinan function as he did?

Nobody has defended the government as far as I can see.

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

Reductio ab absurdam - I refer you to Matt Barretts post. Change of staff at the top is necessary to change the culture. My question is why are you defending the very people who allowed Callinan function as he did?

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It happens in Ireland every four years or so. Sometimes intermittently. Why we had a second in command replaced only the other week. Didn't some Garda lad who spoke up get moved to traffic?
When a new regime comes in or the current feels the need for a shuffle all the top positions in government are up for grabs, including their cronies and administrative side kicks. This isn't saying the previous position holders where all criminals or all incompetent, simply somebody in charge feels a change would be better.
I do not see why the Garda should be any different especially with the revelations of incompetence and cronyism.
.

Can I refer you both to what Odhinn said:

Odhinn wrote: »

Clear outs of high level management are common when there is regime change at the top. A phased removal and series of promotions will ensure the place trundles on.

He wasn't talking about a sideways move here or there, he wasn't talking about a top man being replaced, he wasn't talking about the changing of political appointments.

He was clearly talking about a complete clear out of high level management, and that this is common across the world. Yet neither of you have produced a single example.

Neither have any of you been able to demonstrate why it is a good idea that a new government could fire the top management of the permanent public service and replace it with their own stooges. You only need to look at Trump to see what a bad idea that is, or to imagine Martin Ferris, Minister for Justice appointing his good republican friend the Shlab as Garda Commissioner.

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

...............

Neither have any of you been able to demonstrate why it is a good idea that a new government could fire the top management of the permanent public service and replace it with their own stooges. .............

...probably because neither of us has suggested that happen. A clear out of those who prospered under callinan, replaced by whoever is next in line and who is unassociated with either him or O'Sullivan.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

...

Neither have any of you been able to demonstrate why it is a good idea that a new government could fire the top management of the permanent public service and replace it with their own stooges. You only need to look at Trump to see what a bad idea that is, or to imagine Martin Ferris, Minister for Justice appointing his good republican friend the Shlab as Garda Commissioner.

It's about replacing a system where Garda stoogies are let fester and any decent Garda hounded should they speak up.
I know we except crony appointments from Fine Gael, but maybe with some transparency we might see less cronyism?
Your argument suggests we don't already have a Fine Gael 'we look after our own' culture. That's pretty naive. Look how Varadkar backed O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald? An incompetent former minister in my view. And how Flanagan, another incompetent in my view, sits in office. I suppose all the personal drivers where already looked after.

A complete change of the top levels is within the capabilities and right of the Department of Justice and Government. I know we're concerned about hurting feelings here, but that's life. If a company is incompetent and rife with corruption and cronyism the shareholders kick up until the board are removed. However, this is far more serious.

James Brown

Odhinn wrote: »

...probably because neither of us has suggested that happen. A clear out of those who prospered under callinan, replaced by whoever is next in line and who is unassociated with either him or O'Sullivan.

It's about looking to fix what is broken and others supplying reasons why we can't or shouldn't.

It's always 'can't' or 'it could be worse' if we even tried, with Fine Gael as we let things rot and fester.

Water John

I don't think we need to look as far as NK. Radical cultural change was implemented in NI police force, just next to us.
No need to reinvent the wheel.

Seth Brundle

Odhinn wrote: »

...probably because neither of us has suggested that happen. A clear out of those who prospered under callinan, replaced by whoever is next in line and who is unassociated with either him or O'Sullivan.

So sack people because they were of a particular rank but not necessarily because of anything they did or did not do?
You see nothing wrong with that approach?
If you worked there, would you be ambitious enough to earn promotions or would you hold back just in case your boss was ever displaced meaning you would be too?

Captain Obvious

Odhinn wrote: »

...probably because neither of us has suggested that happen. A clear out of those who prospered under callinan, replaced by whoever is next in line and who is unassociated with either him or O'Sullivan.

How many people do you think are in Garda management?

Water John wrote: »

I don't think we need to look as far as NK. Radical cultural change was implemented in NI police force, just next to us.
No need to reinvent the wheel.

That's exactly what they did though. A new police force. And I don't think the two can really be compared. The RUC where a part military organisation who didn't represent half the population.

James Brown

Captain Obvious wrote: »

How many people do you think are in Garda management?



That's exactly what they did though. A new police force. And I don't think the two can really be compared. The RUC where a part military organisation who didn't represent half the population.

Isn't the problem the Garda aren't seen as just, fair or fit for purpose and there's nothing being done? I would suggest that's a big problem and essentially leaving it lie is criminal in itself.

Odhinn

kbannon wrote: »

So sack people because they were of a particular rank but not necessarily because of anything they did or did not do?
You see nothing wrong with that approach?
If you worked there, would you be ambitious enough to earn promotions or would you hold back just in case your boss was ever displaced meaning you would be too?

The brutal facts are that nobody could have risen under callinan if they weren't on-board with his methods. As a result they're complicit one way or the other. We aren't talking about just a bad attitude to clerical work here.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

How many people do you think are in Garda management?

Theres about 40 odd chief superintendents afaik. Any of them associated with O'Sullivan/Callinan have to go.

Seth Brundle

Odhinn wrote: »

The brutal facts are that nobody could have risen under callinan if they weren't on-board with his methods. As a result they're complicit one way or the other. We aren't talking about just a bad attitude to clerical work here.

Do you want to answer all of the questions in my post now?

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Isn't the problem the Garda aren't seen as just, fair or fit for purpose and there's nothing being done? I would suggest that's a big problem and essentially leaving it lie is criminal in itself.

I don't believe that's true. It's a very general statement. I've had very good dealing with the garda as have many others. It is hardly a shoot in the barrel response that will solve the problems within that organisation.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't believe that's true. It's a very general statement. I've had very good dealing with the garda as have many others. It is hardly a shoot in the barrel response that will solve the problems within that organisation.

Your statement is anecdotal. I'm referencing the breath tests, the penalty points removals, the treatment of McCabe.

Individual Garda are people. We get good and bad. It has nothing to do with the broader public perception or my comments based on the recorded actions of the force.

Captain Obvious

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Isn't the problem the Garda aren't seen as just, fair or fit for purpose and there's nothing being done?

No, I don't think so.

Odhinn wrote: »

Theres about 40 odd chief superintendents afaik. Any of them associated with O'Sullivan/Callinan have to go.

How do you establish this association?

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Your statement is anecdotal. I'm referencing the breath tests, the penalty points removals, the treatment of McCabe.

Individual Garda are people. We get good and bad. It has nothing to do with the broader public perception or my comments based on the recorded actions of the force.

Maybe but your own post suggested that they were all inclusive in some kind of corruption or other and I don't believe that to be true. There are about 10K of them according to another poster.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe but your own post suggested that they were all inclusive in some kind of corruption or other and I don't believe that to be true. There are about 10K of them according to another poster.

We've been talking about the organisation. I thought that was implied. If it were not systemic there wouldn't be a problem. Equally bizarre is having a Taoiseach who will slag off the DoJ but not lay any responsibility on his ministers past or present.

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We've been talking about the organisation. I thought that was implied. If it were not systemic there wouldn't be a problem.

I don't believe its systemic.

James Brown

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't believe its systemic.

The breath tests, written off penalty points and treatment of McCabe would suggest otherwise.

Odhinn

kbannon wrote: »

So sack people because they were of a particular rank but not necessarily because of anything they did or did not do?
You see nothing wrong with that approach?

A loaded question which ignores the specific nature of the situation. It would not be possible to rise to a high rank under callinan without his approval. This would require some level of complicity with his 'methods'. |Already we've had a case where a chief superintendent submitted false testimony to a government inquiry. There's been mutiple briefings by other high ranking officers against whistleblowers, and thats only whats in the public realm.

kbannon wrote: »

If you worked there, would you be ambitious enough to earn promotions or would you hold back just in case your boss was ever displaced meaning you would be too?

Again, this mistakes the situation for something that can arise in an office with an ordinary boss. There was nothing ordinary about martin callinan, his methods or demands.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

How do you establish this association?

.....there are records, obviously.

tayto lover

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The breath tests, written off penalty points and treatment of McCabe would suggest otherwise.

No it wouldn't.