Developing Limerick City as a counter balance to Dublin

zulutango

This has been touched on in a few threads, but it's such a radical proposition from a very esteemed former Secretary-General of the Department of Finance that I think it might warrant its own thread.

The question is, in the context of rapid changes in Ireland in the next few decades, could or should Limerick be developed as a counter-balance to Dublin?

Moran is clearly ambitious for Ireland and says that in order for it to compete on a world stage into the future, this kind of radical approach should be considered.

https://fora.ie/limerick-city-dublin-2723453-Apr2016/

johnnyryan89

It could and should really, something has to be done and Limerick would make the most sense to be that counter balance to Dublin. People of Cork wouldn't be too happy about it and parish pump politics would be the only reason why this wouldn't happen with Cork TD's wanting Cork to be developed as it already is the second city of Ireland and failing to see that developing Limerick as the second city strengthens the west as a whole. Would be great to see TD's, politicians and other high profile people from outside of Limerick in the areas like North Tipp, North Cork, Galway and Clare to push for something like this and any place which would benefit as a commuter town to Limerick.

Water John

Well the seat of Govn't does not need to be the most populated city.

Well you the know the quiz question as to the Capital of South Africa has three answers.

zulutango

Can we imagine a Limerick City of 600 - 700,000 people? What would it look like?

I'd imagine much of the development could be in the Docklands area, with many high rise apartment and office blocks. We should resist building in the suburbs, but if we must we should do it in high-rise clusters (rather than sprawl) so that public transport between these areas and the city is feasible. Speaking of public transport, a light rail similar to the LUAS could be workable if the population wasn't spread out thinly.

As a big city, Limerick would be a destination for tourism, and the obvious tourism potential is in the the Medieval and Georgian parts of the city. These would be closed (almost) completely to cars like many old European cities are, and many of the tourists would stay and shop in this part of Limerick. The high street solicitor and accountant would be pushed out to more suitable premises and the buildings of O'Connell Street and Catherine Street would be tastefully renovated to house restaurants, galleries, hotels, theatres, museums, etc.

That's how I imagine it anyway.

Mc Love

With regard the light rail system - there is a rail line that runs out to Raheen/Patrickswell which would work well if the city had the numbers you are talking about.

Closest it comes to Castletroy is probably the line by the parkway.

zulutango

Yep, there's good infrastructure there already. It would need to be two-way though. I think the existing line is just one track, but I'm sure it could be upgraded.

MrJones2013

I mentioned this on another post also but personally I think John Morans idea needs to be taken on board and at least discussed/debated at government level. We need to start planning for the future and a second urban centre would definetely help relieve the obvious stress Dublin is under at the moment.

zulutango wrote: »

Can we imagine a Limerick City of 600 - 700,000 people? What would it look like?

I'd imagine much of the development could be in the Docklands area, with many high rise apartment and office blocks. We should resist building in the suburbs, but if we must we should do it in high-rise clusters (rather than sprawl) so that public transport between these areas and the city is feasible. Speaking of public transport, a light rail similar to the LUAS could be workable if the population wasn't spread out thinly.

As a big city, Limerick would be a destination for tourism, and the obvious tourism potential is in the the Medieval and Georgian parts of the city. These would be closed (almost) completely to cars like many old European cities are, and many of the tourists would stay and shop in this part of Limerick. The high street solicitor and accountant would be pushed out to more suitable premises and the buildings of O'Connell Street and Catherine Street would be tastefully renovated to house restaurants, galleries, hotels, theatres, museums, etc.

That's how I imagine it anyway.

I would love to see this. I think the fact that Limerick has a grid system in the city centre already is very beneficial and although there is some Urban Sprawl at the moment it wouldn't be as much as there is in Cork. It would be great to see this sprawl kept to a minimum and a focus placed on building high rises in the city centre for both accommodation and also business purposes while still holding on to the Medieval and Georgian parts of the city.

Regarding the public transport the for me the obvious choice for an initial light rail line would be from Raheen Industrial Estate (you could look at using the South Court as a Park and Ride facility) in to the city centre and from the city centre out to UL (maybe as far as Finnegans and have this as a Park and Ride facility) with a suitable number of stops along each route (unlike the current bus routes which in some places are as little as 200m apart!).

I lived in Vancouver for a couple of years and lived in the downtown area, I loved it, my commute to work was an hour each way using public transport but it was worth it for the quality of life living in the city. There is a mentality among us Irish people regarding having our own house in a housing estate or on its own site, this is the norm for us as a nation while other nationalities are much more comfortable living in apartment bulidings and using the recreational areas in the city as their back garden. It would be nice to see a shift in this mentality and see an increase in the number of people living in the city centres but we can only achieve this by making the city more livable.

I know, I know, someone needs to wake me from my slumber

snotboogie

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

It could and should really, something has to be done and Limerick would make the most sense to be that counter balance to Dublin. People of Cork wouldn't be too happy about it and parish pump politics would be the only reason why this wouldn't happen with Cork TD's wanting Cork to be developed as it already is the second city of Ireland and failing to see that developing Limerick as the second city strengthens the west as a whole. Would be great to see TD's, politicians and other high profile people from outside of Limerick in the areas like North Tipp, North Cork, Galway and Clare to push for something like this and any place which would benefit as a commuter town to Limerick.

Cork has an economy three times the size of Limerick and has double the population, yet developing Cork as the second city would be "parish pump"?

Villa05

snotboogie wrote:

Cork has an economy three times the size of Limerick and has double the population, yet developing Cork as the second city would be "parish pump"?

Parish pump or not it won't go ahead because we don't do long term beneficial planning in ireland

Whether it be Cork or Limerick the idea makes sense

source

snotboogie wrote: »

Cork has an economy three times the size of Limerick and has double the population, yet developing Cork as the second city would be "parish pump"?

From what I can make out, Limerick is ideal here because of it's location. Once the motorways are built it will be around 45 minutes from both Cork and Galway.

The means developing Limerick would allow both Cork and Galway to benefit from having the amenities of a large city less than an hour away.

Developing Cork would be beneficial really only to Cork and Limerick. Pushing to develop Cork because it's currently bigger than Limerick would be parish pump politics.

Parish pump politics, for clarity, is putting your local needs before the regional or national needs. Developing Cork rather than Limerick would be parish pump politics because it would be done to keep Cork people happy instead of improving the entire western and southern portion of the country.

Avatar MIA

source wrote: »

From what I can make out, Limerick is ideal here because of it's location. Once the motorways are built it will be around 45 minutes from both Cork and Galway.

The means developing Limerick would allow both Cork and Galway to benefit from having the amenities of a large city less than an hour away.

Developing Cork would be beneficial really only to Cork and Limerick. Pushing to develop Cork because it's currently bigger than Limerick would be parish pump politics.

Parish pump politics, for clarity, is putting your local needs before the regional or national needs. Developing Cork rather than Limerick would be parish pump politics because it would be done to keep Cork people happy instead of improving the entire western and southern portion of the country.

Think you are looking at it with relatively Limerick centred eyes. Cork is relatively large looking after the south. If you want to develop anywhere it should be the west, and that means Galway.

snotboogie

source wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

Cork has an economy three times the size of Limerick and has double the population, yet developing Cork as the second city would be "parish pump"?

From what I can make out, Limerick is ideal here because of it's location. Once the motorways are built it will be around 45 minutes from both Cork and Galway.

The means developing Limerick would allow both Cork and Galway to benefit from having the amenities of a large city less than an hour away.

Developing Cork would be beneficial really only to Cork and Limerick. Pushing to develop Cork because it's currently bigger than Limerick would be parish pump politics.

Parish pump politics, for clarity, is putting your local needs before the regional or national needs. Developing Cork rather than Limerick would be parish pump politics because it would be done to keep Cork people happy instead of improving the entire western and southern portion of the country.

We live in Ireland, not in Russia. You can drive from Cork to Belfast in under four hours. Geographic convenience should be considered but it shouldn't be the only factor. Crucially getting Limerick to a level par with Cork would take a monumental effort. You are talking about tripling Limerick's economy and (at least) doubling the population. After all that effort we would be left with two small cities in Munster and still an all dominating Dublin. Cork currently isn't a viable counterbalance to Dublin, so having two Cork sized cities in Munster would achieve little. However adding even 50% to Cork's economy and population would create a genuine counterbalance to Dublin and you could do that much with less effort than it would take to completely overhaul Limerick.

How exactly is a good Limerick great for Connacht? At best it would be good for the counties in it's immediate environs (Clare and Tipp) but there is no evidence that a big city in Ireland does anything for counties outside of their immediate location. Look at Dublin, sure it's been great for Kildare and parts of Meath and Wicklow but outside of that Greater Dublin has some of the poorest and least developed locations in the country on it's borders. For instance a dominant Dublin has done nothing for the Midlands, which is by far the poorest region in the country with a GDP per capita of 20,000, compared to 31,000 in the much economically maligned Connacht region. So an absolutely dominant primate city in Dublin has done nothing for many of the counties in it's own province but a much smaller counterbalance city in Limerick will rise all boats across two provinces???

It is not Parish pump to suggest developing the second biggest city as a counterbalance, especially when the second biggest city is much, much bigger than the third city, particularly economically. Proximity to Galway (population 75k) doesn't cut it as the reason why Limerick should be chosen. As another poster has said, the West could be developed separately.

zulutango

Cork has a long, long way to go if it's to be a true counter balance to Dublin. Its advantage over Limerick is very small in that context. Then there's the fact that it's so far south that its sphere is more limited. If we're talking about having a single counter-balance (i.e. two major cities in Ireland) then it simply can't be Cork because of its peripheral location. If we're talking about building up two cities (which we're not) then there are stronger arguments to be made for Cork and Galway, with Limerick as a small mid-size city between the two. Snotboogie (compliments on your username!), you have to stop looking at current population distribution for this discussion, because we're talking about a major change to it such that the current distribution isn't relevant.

dave 27

Limerick has the infrastructure to build properly which is what is being looked at. Limerick does have it's fair share of sprawl but looking at Galway and cork they have far worse traffic than limerick because of the way limerick was developed. That and it's location and other things like the 2 ports believe it or not is a good reason to develop limerick

snotboogie

zulutango wrote: »

Cork has a long, long way to go if it's to be a true counter balance to Dublin. Its advantage over Limerick is very small in that context. Then there's the fact that it's so far south that its sphere is more limited. If we're talking about having a single counter-balance (i.e. two major cities in Ireland) then it simply can't be Cork because of its peripheral location. If we're talking about building up two cities (which we're not) then there are stronger arguments to be made for Cork and Galway, with Limerick as a small mid-size city between the two. Snotboogie (compliments on your username!), you have to stop looking at current population distribution for this discussion, because we're talking about a major change to it such that the current distribution isn't relevant.

The economic argument is more compelling, there is a GDP of 32 billion in the Cork region vs 11.4 billion in the Limerick region. Getting that 11.4 up to 32, would be an incredible task. Greater Dublin has a GDP of 72.4 billion. Getting Cork to 50 billion (a 50% increase) would create a genuine economic counterbalance. I don't see any feasible method of getting Limerick to 50 billion in the foreseeable future. It's a near 500% increase in the size of the economy vs a 50% increase in Cork. While a 50% increase is still huge and doesn't refute your point that Cork has a long way to go, to say it's advantage over Limerick is small is simply not true and a 500% increase vs a 50% increase proves this.

Straight Talker

The greater Cork metropolitan area has a population approaching 300,000 people.Cork is a city with a bigger population than both Limerick and Galway cities put together.Cork also has a stronger economy than Limerick and a more vibrant city centre.Cork also faces towards europe which is another advantage that strengthens it hand considerably with ferry links to France.I like Limerick a lot and i like the people there but i think this talk of Limerick being the most important Irish city after Dublin is pie in the sky stuff!

zulutango

Straight Talker wrote: »

The greater Cork metropolitan area has a population approaching 300,000 people.Cork is a city with a bigger population than both Limerick and Galway cities put together.Cork also has a stronger economy than Limerick and a more vibrant city centre.Cork also faces towards europe which is another advantage that strengthens it hand considerably with ferry links to France.I like Limerick a lot and i like the people there but i think this talk of Limerick being the most important Irish city after Dublin is pie in the sky stuff!

Well, as explained already on the thread, that's all fairly irrelevant.

We all know that Cork is the bigger city, currently bigger than both Limerick and Galway cities combined. That's neither here nor there when we're talking about developing an appropriate counter balance to the Dublin metropolitan area.

Straight Talker

zulutango wrote: »

Well, as explained already on the thread, that's all fairly irrelevant.

We all know that Cork is the bigger city, currently bigger than both Limerick and Galway cities combined. That's neither here nor there when we're talking about developing an appropriate counter balance to the Dublin metropolitan area.

I respect your opinions but i Cork think is already much further down the road in terms of being the appropriate counter balance to Dublin than Limerick.Limerick does not face towards Europe which is a significant disadvantage.

zulutango

Straight Talker wrote: »

I respect your opinions but i Cork think is already much further down the road in terms of being the appropriate counter balance to Dublin than Limerick.Limerick does not face towards Europe which is a significant disadvantage.

In terms of freight shipping?

snotboogie

zulutango wrote: »

Straight Talker wrote: »

The greater Cork metropolitan area has a population approaching 300,000 people.Cork is a city with a bigger population than both Limerick and Galway cities put together.Cork also has a stronger economy than Limerick and a more vibrant city centre.Cork also faces towards europe which is another advantage that strengthens it hand considerably with ferry links to France.I like Limerick a lot and i like the people there but i think this talk of Limerick being the most important Irish city after Dublin is pie in the sky stuff!

Well, as explained already on the thread, that's all fairly irrelevant.

We all know that Cork is the bigger city, currently bigger than both Limerick and Galway cities combined. That's neither here nor there when we're talking about developing an appropriate counter balance to the Dublin metropolitan area.

But you are just saying it's irrelevant, you haven't explained why it is irrelevant. Other than Limerick is closer to Galway, I haven't seen any argument with any merit as to why you would choose Limerick over Cork.

zulutango

snotboogie wrote: »

But you are just saying it's irrelevant, you haven't explained why it is irrelevant. Other than Limerick is closer to Galway, I haven't seen any argument with any merit as to why you would choose Limerick over Cork.

I'm not sure how many times this has to be explained, and I'm getting weary of it to be honest.

Forget about current population spread. Let's talk about Ireland having two major cities. One is Dublin, which will push on 2 million or more in the coming decades. Now, the one to balance that (the counter-balance), where should that go? We're talking something of similar size in terms of population and economy. Where is the best place to put that? Do we put it down on the southern coast in a peripheral location where there is currently a small city? Or is there a better place?

Villa05

Straight Talker wrote:

I respect your opinions but i Cork think is already much further down the road in terms of being the appropriate counter balance to Dublin than Limerick.Limerick does not face towards Europe which is a significant disadvantage.

It faces the US, majority of our trade is with UK and USA
Land is much cheaper in Limerick
Are there geographical barriers to expanding Cork/Galway. Flooding etc
Existing airport is adequate to serve increased population

snotboogie

zulutango wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

But you are just saying it's irrelevant, you haven't explained why it is irrelevant. Other than Limerick is closer to Galway, I haven't seen any argument with any merit as to why you would choose Limerick over Cork.

I'm not sure how many times this has to be explained, and I'm getting weary of it to be honest.

Forget about current population spread. Let's talk about Ireland having two major cities. One is Dublin, which will push on 2 million or more in the coming decades. Now, the one to balance that (the counter-balance), where should that go? We're talking something of similar size in terms of population and economy. Where is the best place to put that? Do we put it down on the southern coast in a peripheral location where there is currently a small city? Or is there a better place?

There is no substance in what you are saying.

Forget about current population spread

Why? Why should we do this? You really think that we should forget that Cork has somewhere between double and treble the population of Limerick? Why should we do that? You also completely ignore the even more jarring economic argument

Let's talk about Ireland having two major cities. One is Dublin, which will push on 2 million or more in the coming decades. Now, the one to balance that (the counter-balance), where should that go?

You are just restating the thread topic. There is nothing of substance here at all.

We're talking something of similar size in terms of population and economy

Similar size is fantasy in the medium term. It's just not going to happen. Best case you are looking at a city between 500k and 700k with a GDP between 50 and 70 billion. Munster currently has a population of 1.2 million. There is nowhere near the infrastructure down here to support a city of 1 million plus, never mind two million. Even if there was, where would the jobs come from?

Where is the best place to put that? Do we put it down on the southern coast in a peripheral location where there is currently a small city? Or is there a better place?

Ok, this is the meat of your post. Your points are:

(i) Cork is a peripheral City:
There is only 100km between Cork and Limerick. This is not a huge difference.
Cork to Dublin is 259 km. Limerick to Dublin is 203km.
Cork to Galway is 198km. Limerick to Galway is 99km
Cork to Waterford is 122km. Limerick to Waterford is 131km.

So while it is true that Limerick is in a better location than Cork, the differences are marginal. Your argument is that we should ignore the need for Limerick to make up 22 Billion in it's Economy and 200k in its population in order to gain this marginal geographical convenience. Saying that Cork is peripheral is a huge exaggeration, it already has direct rail and motorway links to Dublin and it's closer to Waterford. The only benefit of Limerick is it's proximity to a 71k strong Galway city, which you already don't want to develop.

(ii) You are implying Cork is a small city
In international terms it is, in Munster terms it's a behemoth. Nearly half of Munster lives in Co Cork, 33% of Munster lives in the Cork commuter belt and 20% of Munster lives in Cork City and its suburbs.

snotboogie

Villa05 wrote: »

Straight Talker wrote:

I respect your opinions but i Cork think is already much further down the road in terms of being the appropriate counter balance to Dublin than Limerick.Limerick does not face towards Europe which is a significant disadvantage.

It faces the US, majority of our trade is with UK and USA
Land is much cheaper in Limerick
Are there geographical barriers to expanding Cork/Galway. Flooding etc
Existing airport is adequate to serve increased population

Villa05 wrote: »

Straight Talker wrote:

I respect your opinions but i Cork think is already much further down the road in terms of being the appropriate counter balance to Dublin than Limerick.Limerick does not face towards Europe which is a significant disadvantage.

It faces the US, majority of our trade is with UK and USA
Land is much cheaper in Limerick
Are there geographical barriers to expanding Cork/Galway. Flooding etc
Existing airport is adequate to serve increased population

Yet US multinationals, despite the air links in Shannon and which way the city faces, have and continue to choose Cork over Limerick.

TonyCliftonEsq

I'd have thought in terms of a long term strategy that motorway links, land price, land availability, air transport and industrial/technological facililities etc would trump any existing population headcount.

Given Shannon Airport and the short motorway to Dublin I'd have thought Limerick was a no brainer.

Cityslicker1

Straight Talker wrote: »

The greater Cork metropolitan area has a population approaching 300,000 people.Cork is a city with a bigger population than both Limerick and Galway cities put together.Cork also has a stronger economy than Limerick and a more vibrant city centre.Cork also faces towards europe which is another advantage that strengthens it hand considerably with ferry links to France.I like Limerick a lot and i like the people there but i think this talk of Limerick being the most important Irish city after Dublin is pie in the sky stuff!

Hard to think Cork city has a population of 300,000 - I never notice much difference in size between Limerick & Cork, if anything Limerick city centre seems more spread out. Even looking at google maps there isn't much difference in the physical size of the two cities.

snotboogie

TonyCliftonEsq wrote: »

I'd have thought in terms of a long term strategy that motorway links, land price, land availability, air transport and industrial/technological facililities etc would trump any existing population headcount.

Given Shannon Airport and the short motorway to Dublin I'd have thought Limerick was a no brainer.

There is less than a 25 minute road transit difference to Dublin between Limerick and Cork. Cork also has direct rail links to Dublin. Cork Airport is busier than Shannon Airport. Cork clearly has better industrial and technological facilities than Limerick. There is plenty of available land around both cities, I wouldn't think there is a huge difference in land price?? Willing to be proved wrong on that one.

Straight Talker

Cityslicker1 wrote: »

Hard to think Cork city has a population of 300,000 - I never notice much difference in size between Limerick & Cork, if anything Limerick city centre seems more spread out. Even looking at google maps there isn't much difference in the physical size of the two cities.

I think you need to have another look at google maps there!Cork has a lot more suburbs than Limerick.That figure i gave takes in the commuter belt places like Ballincollig Cobh Glanmire and Midleton.Leaving it at the city and suburbs Corks population would be around 198 thousand people.Limerick city's full population with Raheen and Castletroy included is around 91 thousand people.

snotboogie

Cityslicker1 wrote: »

Straight Talker wrote: »

The greater Cork metropolitan area has a population approaching 300,000 people.Cork is a city with a bigger population than both Limerick and Galway cities put together.Cork also has a stronger economy than Limerick and a more vibrant city centre.Cork also faces towards europe which is another advantage that strengthens it hand considerably with ferry links to France.I like Limerick a lot and i like the people there but i think this talk of Limerick being the most important Irish city after Dublin is pie in the sky stuff!

Hard to think Cork city has a population of 300,000 - I never notice much difference in size between Limerick & Cork, if anything Limerick city centre seems more spread out. Even looking at google maps there isn't much difference in the physical size of the two cities.

There is 235k between Cork North and South Central: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_constituencies_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland which are the city constituencies. The current county borders are BS. There are no reliable figures for the commuter belt but it's easy to imagine there is at least another 70K between Mallow, Midleton, Bandon, Macroom and the towns in that commuter square around Cork. In comparison, there is only 190k in the entire county of Limerick.

Cityslicker1

Straight Talker wrote: »

I think you need to have another look at google maps there!Cork has a lot more suburbs than Limerick.That figure i gave takes in the commuter belt places like Ballincollig Cobh Glanmire and Midleton.Leaving it at the city and suburbs Corks population would be around 198 thousand people.Limerick city's full population with Raheen and Castletroy included is around 91 thousand people.

Corbally in county Clare is a fairly big suburb of Limerick and it's not counted in the overall figure of the city. When included it brings the total population over 100,000. The city stretches about 7/8km in the East to the suburb of Annacotty and a similar distance towards Raheen/Dooradoyle at the other side of the city. Maybe Cork is physically more compact - Cork city only stretches out about 3km on the Limerick side.

Villa05

snotboogie wrote:

which are the city constituencies. The current county borders are BS. There are no reliable figures for the commuter belt but it's easy to imagine there is at least another 70K between Mallow, Midleton, Bandon, Macroom and the towns in that commuter square around Cork. In comparison, there is only 190k in the entire county of Limerick.

This is not about county borders, you will note that there are many large towns in Clare, Tipperary within a 30 minute commute of Limerick. There are also quiet a few commuting from North Cork/Kerry to work in Limerick