Pre-Planning Meeting

Sponsorgate

Hi All,

I had a pre-planning meeting with local planner 2 weeks ago.

I am planning to build on my fathers farm. For the pre-planning meeting I needed to fill out a Supplementary Planning Application which my architect said was the first time he needed to do such a thing for a pre-planning meeting

The site is quiet a sheltered site & not visible from the main road which runs approx 80 metres from the site. The site is up off the road so you wouldn't be able to see the house as you drive on the main road. Its approx 1km from my parents home dwelling

The feedback we received from the planner was very negative. There is a neighbouring farm beside the site & there is planning for a house there with a number of years. The planner said that they don't want another house so near(there is no house currently there) yet they mentioned that if I was to get planning it would need to be nearer my parents dwelling house as they like to keep houses in clusters?? Is this a planning law?

They also mentioned the house was too open, I don't get this as the site is quiet private. There is land across the road also which i plan to to put a case for as my Plan B but this land is gradually rising so if they think the original site is too open , this is definetly more open

My architect got the impression that the planner didn't even go to see the site due to some of the questions they asked about the area. This is very disappointing as after putting in a lot of time & effort over the last 6 months , they didnt even check the design plans of house or comment on what design would work there. It was just a no. Don't know where to turn now as Plan B will probably be shot down now aswell if they think the Plan A was too "open"

Anyone have experience of negative feedback from pre-planning meetings & what you did to the get the planner back on your side?

Thanks

Sponsorgate

Gumbo

Sometimes you just need to apply, and when refused, address those issues n the second application and go to the board if required.

Rural planning can be so subjective, I'm glad I deal with urban situations tbh!

Angry bird

Sounds like a load of crap. Set our your rural linkage in detail and your housing need in detail. Set out the reasons for choosing this site as opposed to another. Set out the rationale for the house design and why it won't impact on neighbouring amenity or visual amenities of the area. Back all these things up with clear reference to relevant bits of the development plan. No harm in getting onto local counsillor and let them know that you were unhappy with elements of the meeting.

Sponsorgate

Thanks Angry bird for the advice. That was one of the most maddening things in that they didnt even comment on design of the house

Angry bird

Obviously didn't look at the site. In fairness I won't comment too much on a house design if I hadn't seen it bar some general comments. Architects I know and have built up a working relationship with, I will usually go along with their design bar bulk, scale and height, they are the architect at the end if the day not me. The planner should have explained things much more bar a generic we like this and don't like that, give the reason why. Anyway don't lose heart, perhaps a small design tweak will do the trick.

Sponsorgate

Angry bird wrote: »

Obviously didn't look at the site. In fairness I won't comment too much on a house design if I hadn't seen it bar some general comments. Architects I know and have built up a working relationship with, I will usually go along with their design bar bulk, scale and height, they are the architect at the end if the day not me. The planner should have explained things much more bar a generic we like this and don't like that, give the reason why. Anyway don't lose heart, perhaps a small design tweak will do the trick.

Its just all the comments they gave were about the site. For example which I forgot to mention in the earlier post, (there were so many:)they mentioned that I need to be 100m away from a conservation area. There is a river running approx 400m from the site & it wasnt clear from the planner whether i need to be 100m from the river away or from the ditch by the road beside the river. I plan to measure the exact amount so I can see for myself but I reckon I am at least 200m away. It was just so wishy washy.
I got no facts really from all the negative reasons. Seemed as if planner put zero time & effort into it

Angry bird

10 metres is the actual requirement from a watercourse. I would keep well back from a conservation area alright. No doubt the meeting was handled badly. Get your local Cllr to get info as to reasons, he can go to someone more senior about it.

Sponsorgate

Sponsorgate wrote: »

Hi All,

I had a pre-planning meeting with local planner 2 weeks ago.

I am planning to build on my fathers farm. For the pre-planning meeting I needed to fill out a Supplementary Planning Application which my architect said was the first time he needed to do such a thing for a pre-planning meeting

The site is quiet a sheltered site & not visible from the main road which runs approx 80 metres from the site. The site is up off the road so you wouldn't be able to see the house as you drive on the main road. Its approx 1km from my parents home dwelling

The feedback we received from the planner was very negative. There is a neighbouring farm beside the site & there is planning for a house there with a number of years. The planner said that they don't want another house so near(there is no house currently there) yet they mentioned that if I was to get planning it would need to be nearer my parents dwelling house as they like to keep houses in clusters?? Is this a planning law?

They also mentioned the house was too open, I don't get this as the site is quiet private. There is land across the road also which i plan to to put a case for as my Plan B but this land is gradually rising so if they think the original site is too open , this is definetly more open

My architect got the impression that the planner didn't even go to see the site due to some of the questions they asked about the area. This is very disappointing as after putting in a lot of time & effort over the last 6 months , they didnt even check the design plans of house or comment on what design would work there. It was just a no. Don't know where to turn now as Plan B will probably be shot down now aswell if they think the Plan A was too "open"

Anyone have experience of negative feedback from pre-planning meetings & what you did to the get the planner back on your side?

Thanks

Sponsorgate

I decided I am going to put in a planning application for the Plan B site. There is a little more tree cover in Plan B so hopefully that will help with the too "open" part but its still higher up so not holding my breath. Going to get a percolation test done & get a local councillor to help me with my personal application & hopefully keep an eye on my application,
1 have a housing need, (currently renting)
2 with my job I have flexibilty to work from home so I can say I will be working in locality?.
3 I help out on my fathers farm at weekends & free time (I included this in my pre-planning app & planner said I would have to show evidence of green certs etc) which I don't have I just help with manual work & milking cows etc as parents elderly

Could I include anything else?

Thanks for all replies so far

Metric Tensor

Just to say that "housing need" means more than just "doesn't currently own a house" - you have to show why you need a house in that specific area.

WRT the farm - you will need to prove regular active involvement and a plan to continue this involvement - this is why the planner mentioned a green cert. If you don't have one and can't or don't want to get one you will need some other proof. You or your parents writing a letter is not sufficient.

Are you a member of any local clubs, societies, religious groups? A letter from any of the above may help your case.

Sponsorgate

Sponsorgate wrote: »

Sponsorgate wrote: »

Hi All,

I had a pre-planning meeting with local planner 2 weeks ago.

I am planning to build on my fathers farm. For the pre-planning meeting I needed to fill out a Supplementary Planning Application which my architect said was the first time he needed to do such a thing for a pre-planning meeting

The site is quiet a sheltered site & not visible from the main road which runs approx 80 metres from the site. The site is up off the road so you wouldn't be able to see the house as you drive on the main road. Its approx 1km from my parents home dwelling

The feedback we received from the planner was very negative. There is a neighbouring farm beside the site & there is planning for a house there with a number of years. The planner said that they don't want another house so near(there is no house currently there) yet they mentioned that if I was to get planning it would need to be nearer my parents dwelling house as they like to keep houses in clusters?? Is this a planning law?

They also mentioned the house was too open, I don't get this as the site is quiet private. There is land across the road also which i plan to to put a case for as my Plan B but this land is gradually rising so if they think the original site is too open , this is definetly more open

My architect got the impression that the planner didn't even go to see the site due to some of the questions they asked about the area. This is very disappointing as after putting in a lot of time & effort over the last 6 months , they didnt even check the design plans of house or comment on what design would work there. It was just a no. Don't know where to turn now as Plan B will probably be shot down now aswell if they think the Plan A was too "open"

Anyone have experience of negative feedback from pre-planning meetings & what you did to the get the planner back on your side?

Thanks

Sponsorgate

I decided I am going to put in a planning application for the Plan B site. There is a little more tree cover in Plan B so hopefully that will help with the too "open" part but its still higher up so not holding my breath. Going to get a percolation test done & get a local councillor to help me with my personal application & hopefully keep an eye on my application,
1 have a housing need, (currently renting)
2 with my job I have flexibilty to work from home so I can say I will be working in locality?.
3 I help out on my fathers farm at weekends & free time (I included this in my pre-planning app & planner said I would have to show evidence of green certs etc) which I don't have I just help with manual work & milking cows etc as parents elderly

Could I include anything else?

Thanks for all replies so far

Thanks for all replies so far

I have done a percolation test & have levels taken at site. Hope to finalise the design in next week or so & then will put in a planning application. I will contact local councillor this week also so they can keep an eye on it. Its probably a big risk I have taken (spent approx 1000 euro on percolation/levels) after the initial feedback I received was so negative but will argue the case

- changed location from original site as has more tree cover & not easily seen from road
- not as "open" (whatever the planner initially meant by this, the site I am going with is further up the gradient of the hill so)
- its definitely more than 100 meters from river (conservation area)
- hopefully local councillor will support me in that I help out on farm regularly even though I don't have green certs etc & I do have a housing need as I am currently renting & want to move back home to be near parents etc

All I can do is hope

Thanks for advice/comments

Sponsorgate

Metric Tensor

What the councillor says will have no bearing on your "housing need."

You need to prove this on your own.

Sponsorgate

Metric Tensor wrote: »

What the councillor says will have no bearing on your "housing need."

You need to prove this on your own.

Thanks for reply Metric Sensor

Would they not be able to backup my case that I do I have a housing need & confirm to planner what I say in the application is true?

fox65

I am in the early stages of this process. I am at least 6 months behind you. One piece of advice that was given to me is to look at your local coco website. My local one has all the applications up online. You can look at the successful ones and see what appendices were includes, reference letters etc. Are you applying in RU or GB zoned area?

Sponsorgate

fox65 wrote: »

I am in the early stages of this process. I am at least 6 months behind you. One piece of advice that was given to me is to look at your local coco website. My local one has all the applications up online. You can look at the successful ones and see what appendices were includes, reference letters etc. Are you applying in RU or GB zoned area?

I'm applying in a rural zone. I checked on the county council site but cannot see anything regarding appendices on the site. My architect advised me to include a letter in my application & also he will include a letter to say why we moved to this site & the issues we have addressed by moving sites

Metric Tensor

Sponsorgate wrote: »

Thanks for reply Metric Sensor

Would they not be able to backup my case that I do I have a housing need & confirm to planner what I say in the application is true?

In a word No.

In a slightly longer form: Not if the "say" it's true. If they write you a letter saying so then it will be added to all the other documentary evidence regarding your housing need that you are already submitting and might be of some help (although I'm not sure how much.)

P.S. - you need to make sure that you are substantiating your need with support written evidence. Family folio maps, letters from local groups in which you are involved, school records, farming records, rent records, documented health details if you are relying on same, etc., etc. Just writing a letter yourself saying you need it carries very little weight.

fox65

What CoCo are you applying to? These might just be appendixed to the end of application as the same file and not as a separate electronic file

Sponsorgate

fox65 wrote: »

What CoCo are you applying to? These might just be appendixed to the end of application as the same file and not as a separate electronic file

Cork, cant see anything on the site where applications are

fox65

Sponsorgate wrote: »

fox65 wrote: »

What CoCo are you applying to? These might just be appendixed to the end of application as the same file and not as a separate electronic file

Cork, cant see anything on the site where applications are

Try this

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Cork%20County%20Council/Departments/Planning/Planning%20Enquiry%20System

You need internet explorer to view. Filter by your area. For those that were granted the documents tab should contain all the filed documents. Not exactly a user friendly system but its alright

Metric Tensor

Hi OP. I just discovered this evening that some counties do indeed accept a councillor's letter as sufficient proof! Ask your architect about what is acceptable in Cork.

Sponsorgate

fox65 wrote: »

Try this

You need internet explorer to view. Filter by your area. For those that were granted the documents tab should contain all the filed documents. Not exactly a user friendly system but its alright

Thanks v much fox65, v helpful info

Sponsorgate

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Hi OP. I just discovered this evening that some counties do indeed accept a councillor's letter as sufficient proof! Ask your architect about what is acceptable in Cork.

Ok will check this with architect, thanks metric tensor

Sponsorgate

Met with my local councillor. He offered to come out to site & take a look & offer his views as he has been through a lot at this stage. I know that he has no influence whatsoever on what the planner will say but he see's no major issue. His advice though was that they will come back with something. They always do:) I will be putting in my planning application at the start of next week so fingers & toes crossed it will be a runner. I have my reservations though & I am preparing myself for bad news. Having spoken to a few people who have applied in the area recently, all have said they have had different issues & 3 of the people I spoke to have said they have had to change the whole design of the house. This would be very disappointing but I guess it would mean the site is a goer which is most important thing.

I should have an answer within the next 2 months from when I put in the application i guess?

Wish me luck:)

Thanks for all advice on this thread

Johnc35

Hi,it seems you know what your talking about! I really would appreciate your advice. At the moment I'm in the process of transferring land into my name from my grandfather so that I can apply for planning for my log house. A lady in the planning office said the log house wouldn't be the problem but the location might be. I'm not originally from the location, (15 minutes drive away) but it's the only site I have and the only hope I have to build my own house. I haven't been to a pre planning meeting or anything but I've been told already that I will be refused because im not "local" despite many non locals getting planning and building their houses in the area. Any advice before I go down to them would be appreciated. Thank you.

Gumbo

Johnc35 wrote: »

Hi,it seems you know what your talking about! I really would appreciate your advice. At the moment I'm in the process of transferring land into my name from my grandfather so that I can apply for planning for my log house. A lady in the planning office said the log house wouldn't be the problem but the location might be. I'm not originally from the location, (15 minutes drive away) but it's the only site I have and the only hope I have to build my own house. I haven't been to a pre planning meeting or anything but I've been told already that I will be refused because im not "local" despite many non locals getting planning and building their houses in the area. Any advice before I go down to them would be appreciated. Thank you.

You need to prove your attachment to the area through their local needs assessment. Also, a log cabin, despite what the admin staff on the phone told you, will not get planning. A structure to the effect of a log cabin may technically get permission, but compliance with our current minimum building regulations will rule it out.

Sponsorgate

Planner got back to me & is looking for "further information " requests
The main 2 I received are below
1. submit revised plans a for a single storey dwelling reflecting the traditional architectural
principles of scale, proportion and form
2. submit information relating to the environmental
measures / procedures which will be implemented at the site during the construction
phase of the proposed development to prevent the release of sediments, effluents,
nutrients or other contaminants into the local surface water network

My 2 storey house design counts for nowt now which is very disappointing. 2 storey design
"would seriously injure the visual amenities of the area". So back to the drawing board for the that which to be honest isn't a great surprise but just adds to ever growing cost. Its oul destroying as spent 2 months with architect getting that design right.
Point 2 I have learned that you have to hire environmental contractor to come to the site & map out where waste from the construction phase will go. That will be the bones of 1000 euro. Joke!

Dudda

Sponsorgate wrote: »

Planner got back to me & is looking for "further information " requests
The main 2 I received are below
1. submit revised plans a for a single storey dwelling reflecting the traditional architectural
principles of scale, proportion and form
2. submit information relating to the environmental
measures / procedures which will be implemented at the site during the construction
phase of the proposed development to prevent the release of sediments, effluents,
nutrients or other contaminants into the local surface water network

My 2 storey house design counts for nowt now which is very disappointing. 2 storey design
"would seriously injure the visual amenities of the area". So back to the drawing board for the that which to be honest isn't a great surprise but just adds to ever growing cost. Its oul destroying as spent 2 months with architect getting that design right.
Point 2 I have learned that you have to hire environmental contractor to come to the site & map out where waste from the construction phase will go. That will be the bones of 1000 euro. Joke!

Looking at the bright side they aren't questioning your housing needs or links to the locality as they didn't request further information or proof on this. That's usually the hardest thing to prove so at least it looks as you'll get planning. For what (single / dormer / etc) is yet unclear but at least you'll probably get it.

Metric Tensor

I agree with Dudda:

Look at this as good news. They appear to be willing to grant you permission - albeit for a different house design.

Take it as a win!

(On a side note - I absolutely hated single storey dwellings .... until I lived in a good one and realised that they have some big benefits!)

Sponsorgate

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I agree with Dudda:

Look at this as good news. They appear to be willing to grant you permission - albeit for a different house design.

Take it as a win!

(On a side note - I absolutely hated single storey dwellings .... until I lived in a good one and realised that they have some big benefits!)

Thanks for the feedback Dudda & Metric Tensor
Yeah I am apprehensive about a single storey but doing research on it last night, I am coming around to the idea of living in one. My architect is hoping to speak to planner after we have come up with a design in next few weeks so they can say yay or nay & then we can go ahead with going in depth into the design.
I should have mentioned above also that they also said "The dwelling shall be sited at lower level within the site
(this may necessitate revisions to the foul drainage proposals) " This means moving the dwelling closer to the road. My architect advised that the previous percolation /enginnering works should be sufficent( he will have to check that the company that did these will stand over the work they have already done despite the moving of the dwelling) I hope this is the case

Angry bird

Council where I work would have refused on 'visual amenity' re your 2-storey design, so a further information on this is a positive, even if it is a pain redesigning and re-siting. The trial hole tests as is should be fine. The second one is essentially a construction management plan, where materials are stored, measures to ensure materials don't enter surface water etc, a bit unusual for a one off dwelling. Nearly there, good luck.

chippers

If you really want what you have submitted then you dont have to rule it out point black. Councils can sometimes be way too prescriptive/ narrow minded with how they consider design. As others have said it sounds like the principle of development is acceptable and this is the main hurdle. What mightnt be permissible for the Council may be by the Board.

Sponsorgate

chippers wrote: »

If you really want what you have submitted then you dont have to rule it out point black. Councils can sometimes be way too prescriptive/ narrow minded with how they consider design. As others have said it sounds like the principle of development is acceptable and this is the main hurdle. What mightnt be permissible for the Council may be by the Board.

Thanks for the feedback chippers. When you say by the board, is that who the planner is answerable to a such? The councillor who I am working with advised they could have a word with the planner & see if there is any swaying of them which is worth a try I guess

chippers

Sponsorgate wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback chippers. When you say by the board, is that who the planner is answerable to a such? The councillor who I am working with advised they could have a word with the planner & see if there is any swaying of them which is worth a try I guess

Apologies, i'm referring to An Bord Pleanala. I obviously dont know your case and the context (history / relevant planning policy pertaining to your application etc.) to advise your best course of action going forward. However, if the planning authority is being unreasonably prescriptive, as they sometimes can be, you could get a grant from An Bord Pleanala for what you want. Its a possible course of action if your agent / architect knows what they're at.

Sponsorgate

Thanks to all for your advice on this thread over last few months

I got planning last month after 15 months. Long process but delighted to have got it eventually

I am meeting with architect/engineer this week to go through the detailed drawings of the plans before going for tender in the next few days once I am happy with the plans

Any important questions I need to clear up with them. For example the electricity/plumbing layout will be finalised, Height of ceilings . Will I need to finalise if want french doors over a window for example? Another thing I am not sure about is whether I want a wet room or conventional bathroom. Will I need to finalise this before tender?

Thank you all for your advice up to now
Sponsorgate

Metric Tensor

It depends on what level of completion you want to price for. All the things you mention cost different amounts of money so if you don't tell the contractor what you want he won't be able to give you a price for it!

To avoid making some of these decisions at tender stage some people obtain tender prices to a level called "builder's finish" which is pretty much the shell of the building and first fix of most fittings. No kitchens, tiling, bathrooms, etc. Of course if you leave out all of these things then you have no idea how much the final build is likely to cost.

Have a chat with your professional(s) with regards to what is the based way to issue your tender documents.

Also prepare for it to take a number of weeks - not days - before you are ready to go to tender.