Two Irish sisters used to be brothers

drunkmonkey

Just after reading this news story in the Irish Sun, Two Irish sisters used to be brothers — until they came out as transgender together.

Story here, http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/news/7170700/Irish-brothers-who-are-now-sisters-OHerlihy-girls-were-born-boys.html

There portrayed as Glamour girls, they look great but as a parent this would be one of my worst nightmares i'm feel so sad for their parents, 2 sons and they both want their 3 piece suite removed. As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would bring you an heir and carry on the family, this must be unbelievable for their parents.
There has to be psychological issue here somewhere especially with the younger one as he probably mimicked their older brother.
I'm not sure the operation and the lifetime after care should be funded by the HSE.

Any other dads concerned that it's all becoming a bit to easy and glamorous to be trans, panty made it to time magazine, I just feel we've gone from one extreme to the other and everybody is afraid to say stop...

I know this thread won't go down well with a few people, my intention is not to offend them as I know what they've gone though isn't for the fun of it and they done it in a lot different time but as a parent this scares the hell out of me.

Ohbethehokey

I find it odd a 16 year old from cork was performing in a bar in Dublin. Doesn't sound like the best parenting decisions were made.

drunkmonkey

Ohbethehokey wrote: »

I find it odd a 16 year old from cork was performing in a bar in Dublin. Doesn't sound like the best parenting decisions were made.

Worrying that she was doing drag acts at 16 and the age of consent is 17, I can only assume she was doing more when she was under age.

Zaph

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I know this thread won't go down well with a few people, my intention is not to offend them as I know what they've gone though isn't for the fun of it and they done it in a lot different time but as a parent this scares the hell out of me.

As a parent surely your priority is the happiness of your child, rather than worrying about how their actions will impact on you?

05eaftqbrs9jlh

I'm a libertarian, so of course, I think they should do whatever they want. However, I'm certainly not going to stand up and applaud something when I think it's just ridiculous and stupid.

I could have had a similar situation because of my upbringing. A girl surrounded by sisters, I generally hung out with my brothers instead... I mostly preferred girls sexually but couldn't understand them emotionally and didn't care about the things they generally held as important. With all the advantages afforded to men in life, the respect that comes through being a man, it would make so much sense for me to say "feck this" and get gender reassignment.

But I haven't been brainwashed into thinking my appearance is all that matters, I'm not so superficial. I appreciate my own existence as I am. I don't know how people become so absorbed by such a small facet of existence - gender, and their unsuitability for theirs.

What do they actually GET out of the transition, pragmatically? Are they not just gratifying this ingrained desire to rectify some seemingly mistaken sense of impropriety?

drunkmonkey

Zaph wrote: »

As a parent surely your priority is the happiness of your child, rather than worrying about how their actions will impact on you?

I don't think in the long run it will make them happy, My main concern would be how it will impact them, there going down a road with no turn back, what you want and feel when your 20 are not the same as what you want when your 30,40,50. Friends, change, desires change, the world changes.
It's perfectly normal to be concerned about the impact it will have on yourself, as a father I presume you'd be constantly thinking what if and blaming yourself.

Zaph

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't think in the long run it will make them happy, My main concern would be how it will impact them, there going down a road with no turn back, what you want and feel when your 20 are not the same as what you want when your 30,40,50. Friends, change, desires change, the world changes.
It's perfectly normal to be concerned about the impact it will have on yourself, as a father I presume you'd be constantly thinking what if and blaming yourself.

Blaming yourself for what? If parent is so insecure that their child changing gender makes them somehow feel like a failure then the problem lies with the parent, not the child.

Hunchback

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

I'm a libertarian, so of course, I think they should do whatever they want. However, I'm certainly not going to stand up and applaud something when I think it's just ridiculous and stupid.

I could have had a similar situation because of my upbringing. A girl surrounded by sisters, I generally hung out with my brothers instead... I mostly preferred girls sexually but couldn't understand them emotionally and didn't care about the things they generally held as important. With all the advantages afforded to men in life, the respect that comes through being a man, it would make so much sense for me to say "feck this" and get gender reassignment.

But I haven't been brainwashed into thinking my appearance is all that matters, I'm not so superficial. I appreciate my own existence as I am. I don't know how people become so absorbed by such a small facet of existence - gender, and their unsuitability for theirs.

What do they actually GET out of the transition, pragmatically? Are they not just gratifying this ingrained desire to rectify some seemingly mistaken sense of impropriety?

Could you clarify what you mean by a "seemingly mistaken sense of impropriety"? I'm not being smart, it just does not make sense to me

drunkmonkey

Zaph wrote: »

Blaming yourself for what? If parent is so insecure that their child changing gender makes them somehow feel like a failure then the problem lies with the parent, not the child.

Well it wouldn't make me feel like dad of the year that's for sure.

Zaph

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Well it wouldn't make me feel like dad of the year that's for sure.

Why not? Your kids' gender identity is not something that you have any control over, so why would you feel bad if they decided to undergo reassignment?

05eaftqbrs9jlh

CKonetheonlyone wrote:

Could you clarify what you mean by a "seemingly mistaken sense of impropriety"? I'm not being smart, it just does not make sense to me

Like, their belief that they weren't born the correct gender. It's not nature that makes them think that, it's the nurture aspect of their lives that flings MK-Ultra sex kittens at them as role models. I feel the same way, like I would probably be better suited to being a man than I am to being a woman. To have medical science morph you into some cheap imitation of what you'd like to be is just flamboyant.

drunkmonkey

It's obvious there were some parenting issues here, who let's their son become a drag queen at 16 in a dublin bar?
I know you don't believe parents can have any influence, i'm not 100% in agreement with you on that and i'm not a supporter of the blasé attitude towards letting them have gender reassignment therapy to make sure their temporary happy.

Look i'm not getting into debating that, I see exactly where your going with your line of questioning. It's been done to death in any thread that gender appears until people are afraid to even comment.

Zaph

I agree that it's not appropriate for a 16 year old to be performing as a drag queen in a bar. However I also believe it's not appropriate for a 16 year old to be playing traditional music for tourists in a bar either. But I don't understand why you think that gender reassignment is just something to make someone temporarily happy. Why don't you believe that it's permanent? It's not something that people undergo lightly, and there's a lot of psychological assessment and preparation beforehand. I sincerely doubt that you'd find a surgeon willing to carry out the surgery if they believed it was something being done on a whim.

One eyed Jack

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Any other dads concerned that it's all becoming a bit to easy and glamorous to be trans, panty made it to time magazine, I just feel we've gone from one extreme to the other and everybody is afraid to say stop...

To be perfectly honest, no, I'm not at all concerned that it's all becoming a bit too easy and glamorous to be trans. I understand where you're coming from alright, but genuinely I don't think there's too much to be concerned about. I like to think my own child has more ambition than attempted infamy for entirely mundane reasons.

newacc2015

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't think in the long run it will make them happy, My main concern would be how it will impact them, there going down a road with no turn back, what you want and feel when your 20 are not the same as what you want when your 30,40,50. Friends, change, desires change, the world changes.
It's perfectly normal to be concerned about the impact it will have on yourself, as a father I presume you'd be constantly thinking what if and blaming yourself.

I think you do with reading up on being trans*, as in my opinion you are utterly clueless on the topic. If are trans*, you believe you are not the gender that was assigned at birth ie you have the organs for being male, but you feel female. This is not notion or a phase like seem to think. These two women have said they always felt like women. Why would a women decide that she is actually male when they 30?

As a father your only concern should your child's happiness. That doesn't appear to be the case with you at all. You seem like if you were their father, you would force your beliefs on them as you think you know best for them. IMO that is totally incorrect. Your whole opinion on this is based on a rather selfish notions on what you want from your children and not what your children actually want ie an heir to the family BS etc. You have not at any stage really taken into account the well being of these women

How is being trans* glamorous? Trans* people have to deal with rather ignorant opinions, being raped, murdered and abandoned from their families? What part of that 'lifestyle' is attractive that someone would consider it?

Wibbs

Hmmm, this is going to be interesting. One the one side we have the "gender is a social construct and not really real" opinions, t'other side holds the opposite view. And both tend to come from the "progressive camp". And then we have the "christ no, down with that sorta thing!!!" camp. Yep interesting.

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

But I haven't been brainwashed into thinking my appearance is all that matters, I'm not so superficial. I appreciate my own existence as I am. I don't know how people become so absorbed by such a small facet of existence - gender, and their unsuitability for theirs.

Gender is a small facet of existence? I can only imagine you're making the naive error of it appearing that way for you, so therefore society must feel the same! Note the number of first person pronouns you use. However for the average person on the street gender is a massive part of their lives at a very visceral level and is and has been so throughout history and culture.

Zaph wrote: »

Blaming yourself for what? If parent is so insecure that their child changing gender makes them somehow feel like a failure then the problem lies with the parent, not the child.

It would be little to do with insecurity on my part. More to do with WTF went wrong and yes it is a "fault in the system" for someone who is genetically male or female feeling they need surgery and hormones to be another gender. I would see it as an illness first TBH. Now if the best option for therapy was gender reassignment then that would be the option to take and I'd support them in that 100%.

Though no amount of attempted social engineering is going to convince me that it's not an illness and therefore somehow everyday and normal. And I'm not going to don sackcloth and ashes because I feel that way either.

Zaph wrote: »

I agree that it's not appropriate for a 16 year old to be performing as a drag queen in a bar. However I also believe it's not appropriate for a 16 year old to be playing traditional music for tourists in a bar either.

You really think the two the same? IMH that's much more about signalling how right on you are all too common today. There is almost no logic to your position to draw any other conclusion Zed.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Personally if a hypothetical son or daughter of mine had gender reassignment and I didnt feel that they actually needed it or that it was done on a whim i would be disappointed.

People needing gender reassignment are sufficiently rare that if two brothers become sisters my worry would be that one of them was influenced by the other and didnt actually need it.

One eyed Jack

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Personally if a hypothetical son or daughter of mine had gender reassignment and I didnt feel that they actually needed it or that it was done on a whim i would be disappointed.

People needing gender reassignment are sufficiently rare that if two brothers become sisters my worry would be that one of them was influenced by the other and didnt actually need it.

It couldn't be done on a whim as they'd have to have been assessed and all the rest of it. Sure, it's probably rare enough (like the Wachowski brothers, y'know The Matrix?) but as influential and all as our family members are, I don't think medical practitioners are to be so easily convinced. There's all sorts of criteria that must be met first.

Jawgap

drunkmonkey wrote: »

....

Any other dads concerned that it's all becoming a bit to easy and glamorous to be trans, panty made it to time magazine, I just feel we've gone from one extreme to the other and everybody is afraid to say stop...

In a word, yes.

My own sense is that we are living through a time where the notion of gender is both in a state of flux and being better understood; and while we're making great strides in learning and understanding the construct or notion of 'gender' we're not even close to understanding the full impacts of what the process of re-definition will ultimately bring.

I also think that while there are significant numbers of people trapped by the current notions of gender (and those people will each that realisation at different stages in their life, including some during their teen and pre-teen years), there are also significant numbers who for reasons of fashion, bandwagoning, being 'on trend' etc have decided that uncertainty about their current gender identity means they must reject it.

I'm not saying that this is the case in this situation - I wouldn't know nearly enough about the children involved to make any conclusion, and if it was my own lads I'd just want them to be happy. It would take a lot of convincing for me to be persuaded that such a permanent life-altering decision was in their best interest, but I'd like to think I'd be open to being persuaded.

Clearlier

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Personally if a hypothetical son or daughter of mine had gender reassignment and I didnt feel that they actually needed it or that it was done on a whim i would be disappointed.

If I felt that either of my sons went through it on a whim I'd be absolutely devestated for them. To do what gender reassignment entails to your body when it wasn't needed or appropriate would be pretty awful. That's why there are so many safeguards when it comes to surgery as opposed to social transition which has been made significantly easier.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

People needing gender reassignment are sufficiently rare that if two brothers become sisters my worry would be that one of them was influenced by the other and didnt actually need it.

I don't think that we know what causes gender dysphoria but it's not very likely that it's a social construct. I reminded by your comment of a friend of mine who was straight but who had 5 gay siblings. It seemed unlikely to me but all made a lot more sense when I discovered that the likelihood of being gay increases the more older brothers you have. That's an observed fact, the reasons for it are just speculative but revolve around the mother's womb.

It's too much of a leap to say that gender dysphoria follows the same path as homosexuality (as far as I'm aware anyway) but given that the dysphoria is likely to be biological in origin perhaps it's not that unlikely that siblings would both have it.

Wibbs

Clearlier wrote: »

It's too much of a leap to say that gender dysphoria follows the same path as homosexuality (as far as I'm aware anyway) but given that the dysphoria is likely to be biological in origin perhaps it's not that unlikely that siblings would both have it.

Makes sense alright. A mix of genetics, exposure to levels of hormones in the womb and a genetic sensitivity to said levels being in play. I've known families that had more gay men in the mix than most, or at least that were obvious. My own lot have no gay men that are known about, but quite a few gay women.

There can be some influence of nurture and culture going on too. So for example the old saw of Greek homosexuality where the culture it seems saw little wrong with male pederasty, something we would find abhorrent and go to gaol and throw away the key. Though contrary to popular they frowned on adult male homosexuality. Though not so much on purely sexual grounds. It was more about the passive partner being seen as "weak". Did this reflect a basic background level of homosexuality in men that the society accommodated, or did it come from culture, or six of one a half dozen of the other? Female homosexuality was equally culturally constrained. It was seen as taking potential mothers and wives out of the equation so as this was seen as bad for society was frowned upon.

eviltwin

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just after reading this news story in the Irish Sun, Two Irish sisters used to be brothers — until they came out as transgender together.

Story here, http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/news/7170700/Irish-brothers-who-are-now-sisters-OHerlihy-girls-were-born-boys.html

There portrayed as Glamour girls, they look great but as a parent this would be one of my worst nightmares i'm feel so sad for their parents, 2 sons and they both want their 3 piece suite removed. As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would bring you an heir and carry on the family, this must be unbelievable for their parents.
There has to be psychological issue here somewhere especially with the younger one as he probably mimicked their older brother.
I'm not sure the operation and the lifetime after care should be funded by the HSE.

Any other dads concerned that it's all becoming a bit to easy and glamorous to be trans, panty made it to time magazine, I just feel we've gone from one extreme to the other and everybody is afraid to say stop...

I know this thread won't go down well with a few people, my intention is not to offend them as I know what they've gone though isn't for the fun of it and they done it in a lot different time but as a parent this scares the hell out of me.

It's so rare it's unlikely to happen. Would it bother you less if it was a female to male transition? Your comments about men bringing an heir and carrying on the family.....these ladies can still do that if they so choose

Wibbs

eviltwin wrote: »

Would it bother you less if it was a female to male transition?

Can't speak for the other poster but it would "bother" me equally.

drunkmonkey

eviltwin wrote: »

It's so rare it's unlikely to happen. Would it bother you less if it was a female to male transition? Your comments about men bringing an heir and carrying on the family.....these ladies can still do that if they so choose

It's kinda been celebrated a little in the media though, the 2 girls in the picture are put forward as models, look at the transation videos on YouTube and there all trying to make themselves into pretty girls. Loads of them have video logs covering the whole transition, there's no negativity coming across. There's nobody coming out and saying you know what this isn't all positive. Where's the stats around ongoing care, mental health issues, reports of people who have regretted the transation and are still batting meantal health problems even after the operation, where's the suicide stats, nothing coming through in the media is giving the whole story or after story.
As for carrying on the family name I don't think there's anything wrong in the slightest about a dad hoping that would happen and maybe get to see a few grandchildren before they clock off.
The what about the girls is a whole different thread, if I had only girls I'd be pushing them not to take their husbands surname. Mix of boys and girls woudn't care in the slightest but if your bloodline is jeopardy I'd be fighting for it.
With Wibbs on the transition they'd both bother me.

eviltwin

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's kinda been celebrated a little in the media though, the 2 girls in the picture are put forward as models, look at the transation videos on YouTube and there all trying to make themselves into pretty girls. Loads of them have video logs covering the whole transition, there's no negativity coming across. There's nobody coming out and saying you know what this isn't all positive. Where's the stats around ongoing care, mental health issues, reports of people who have regretted the transation and are still batting meantal health problems even after the operation, where's the suicide stats, nothing coming through in the media is giving the whole story or after story.
As for carrying on the family name I don't think there's anything wrong in the slightest about a dad hoping that would happen and maybe get to see a few grandchildren before they clock off.
The what about the girls is a whole different thread, if I had only girls I'd be pushing them not to take their husbands surname. Mix of boys and girls woudn't care in the slightest but if your bloodline is jeopardy I'd be fighting for it.
With Wibbs on the transition they'd both bother me.

They can still carry on the family name, they can still have children. They might not be blood but does that matter? Plenty of people can't have biological kids but their families aren't any less because of it. Yep all the challenges facing the transgender community are serious ones but I'd reckon family support and acceptance goes a long way in counteracting that.

Sleepy

I'm no expert on the subject but what science I have seen would seem to suggest that the condition is, at least in part, genetic so, while I wouldn't be allowing my kids to perform in drag acts in bars at that age I'd try to be understanding and supportive should either of them feel that way.

The language of the article linked shows just how true it is that we're glamorising gender dysphoria imo. I certainly don't find the two ladies in question "inspirational", they've achieved nothing worthy of that accolade. It's a growing tendency for our society to lionise simple self-acceptance (or even self-delusion) over genuine achievement imo. We make celebrities out of unexceptional people simply because they put themselves out there to have the intimate details of their lives analysed in tedious depth in glossy tabloid rags.

I don't want my kids looking up to people who spend their lives indulging in Dawson's Creek level pseudo intellectual self analysis. I want them to admire people who've invented life-altering technology, who save lives by their ingenuity or hard work those who've landed probes on comets in an effort to understand our universe and however else they choose to live their lives, to aim to fall into the latter, rather than the former, group.

txt_mess

I have 4 kids myself and I am smart enough to understand that I have no control over there sexuality , all you can influence as a parent is teaching them right from wrong and hope they mature in a way that they can make decisions for themselves that are considered.

As for the performing in a bar I worked as lounge staff in a bar at 16 and for the folks saying it's bad parenting how do you know their parents were not on the side of the stage as a chaperone for their child ? in the absence of evidence why jump to the negative.

Sleepy

I think there's a fairly major difference between working as lounge staff and being on-stage in a role that has pretty heavy sexual connotations. I wouldn't be comfortable with my daughter being in such a position either (I'm remembering Britney Spears as a 16/17 year old in the Hit Me Baby One More Time video).

drunkmonkey

Just to add a little context here, their mum is a single Lesbian so the 2 boys didn't exactly have a normal upbringing and it looks like genetics and environment are at play.

um7y1h83ge06nx

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just to add a little context here, their mum is a single Lesbian so the 2 boys didn't exactly have a normal upbringing and it looks like genetics and environment are at play.

That's an interesting fact alright.

I'm purely speculating here but you would wonder how much of an impact that had - possible lack of a male role model, a possible anti-men bias in the household (not that all lesbians are anti-men of course)?

Again, just throwing that out there as a discussion point, impossible for us to know from newspaper reports.

Ohbethehokey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just to add a little context here, their mum is a single Lesbian so the 2 boys didn't exactly have a normal upbringing and it looks like genetics and environment are at play.

Well there you go...

drunkmonkey

What it does make me wonder is what is Katherine Zappone is doing as Minister for children, a feminist lesbian steering policy makes me shudder. I would love to here her 50cent on this.

drunkmonkey

Ohbethehokey wrote: »

Well there you go...

I wasn't expecting it, I had a picture in my head of a distraught mum and dad.
I'm pretty relived to be honest.

Ohbethehokey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I wasn't expecting it, I had a picture in my head of a distraught mum and dad.
I'm pretty relived to be honest.

It certainly opens up the nature vs nurture debate

sunny2004

I feel when reading these stories that its not PC to say is anyone considering that there might be deep rooted issues with some of these people. It's as if in todays society its not OK to question the reasons behind the decisions.

Jimmy Bottlehead

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just to add a little context here, their mum is a single Lesbian so the 2 boys didn't exactly have a normal upbringing and it looks like genetics and environment are at play.

Gay parents do not equal gay or trans children.

My own take on this is that there was a genetic predisposition toward being transgender, and their (presumably) more accepting and enlightened upbringing allowed them the mental and social support to make a decision which was truthful to themselves.

For these individuals to either do it for the lols or simply self-deny due to shame would be equally tragic; I am glad we have a society which is growing to be as accepting of an individual as ours is becoming. The notion of gender and self-identification is a very personal aspect for a person and the road to self-acceptance and truth is not always straightforward.

As for the above admonishment for their commendations, I believe the commendations are due to their willingness to be public about it and bring to light a topic which is not hugely mainstream and rather misunderstood. It does take bravery to do that, and I'd wish them well in doing so.

Jawgap

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Gay parents do not equal gay or trans children.

My own take on this is that there was a genetic predisposition toward being transgender, and their (presumably) more accepting and enlightened upbringing allowed them the mental and social support to make a decision which was truthful to themselves.

For these individuals to either do it for the lols or simply self-deny due to shame would be equally tragic; I am glad we have a society which is growing to be as accepting of an individual as ours is becoming. The notion of gender and self-identification is a very personal aspect for a person and the road to self-acceptance and truth is not always straightforward.

As for the above admonishment for their commendations, I believe the commendations are due to their willingness to be public about it and bring to light a topic which is not hugely mainstream and rather misunderstood. It does take bravery to do that, and I'd wish them well in doing so.

given the nature of the procedure I think it's more important we question and question again such decisions, long before we get anywhere near commending them.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Jawgap wrote: »

given the nature of the procedure I think it's more important we question and question again such decisions, long before we get anywhere near commending them.

Questioning it for the purpose of ascertaining whether the condition is present is fine, and is what the current DSM provides for.

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

TheExile1878

I'm concerned that people here seem to think being the only girl in a family of boys - or vice versa - is enough to make one transgender!!!

Surely the biological imperative would be known long before.

Such ignorance. Concerning.

TheExile1878

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just to add a little context here, their mum is a single Lesbian so the 2 boys didn't exactly have a normal upbringing and it looks like genetics and environment are at play.

You appear to be confusing context with bigotry.

Or perhaps you have an explanation as to why a friend of mine is gay, yet was born to straight parents, his brother and sisters are similarly straight.

drunkmonkey

TheExile1878 wrote: »

I'm concerned that people here seem to think being the only girl in a family of boys - or vice versa - is enough to make one transgender!!!

Surely the biological imperative would be known long before.

Such ignorance. Concerning.

You seem to think that environment can have 0 influence on a person. That's a very closed mindset and to trot out shouting biggots to anyone that doesn't agree makes you the biggot not us.

Jawgap

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Questioning it for the purpose of ascertaining whether the condition is present is fine, and is what the current DSM provides for.

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

I'd see that as a clinical question. Plus from my limited understanding the fact that the word 'fluid' attaches to the discussion leads me to wonder whether a permanent solution is the best solution to a 'fluid' situation - the tide is fluid, it goes in and it goes out.

As a parent I'm more interested in the seeing that the best interests of my child(ren) are served, so even if they did 'verbalise' their desires and there was a clinical opinion that the condition was present, the first thing I'd do is the follow the advice of a good friend of mine who is a doctor and get a second opinion.

That same doctor is forever describing how diagnoses are being defined and re-defined all the time - which he doesn't mind, but it's the broadening of diagnoses that gets him quite animated - everything it seems has to be on a spectrum or a manifestation of a syndrome.

In some cases, in my uneducated view, it's just teenagers being teenagers and doing what we all did - exploring and experimenting to figure out the sense of self. Except now they have clinical pegs to hang this behaviour on and 'treatments' to address it, some of which are, it has to be said, quite radical.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Last Wednesday on a discussion about gender fluidity on Sky News (the pledge?) one of the panellist remarked about a phase in your youth where she wanted to be a boy because she had all brothers. She was worried by the possibility that someone going through phase today would be signed up for counselling and or going through clinical treatments for gender dysfunction.

Pat Mustard

Link from pubmed

Transgender patients seek medical treatment to change external appearances to correspond to their gender identification. Environment may have a role in the manifestation of the condition and the personal choices about the priority the situation may take in a specific individual's life. Gender identity, however, reflects neither environment nor postnatal sex steroid hormone levels. Rather, gender identity is fixed. The stated gender identity of most adults can be taken at face value.

Wibbs

Camille Paglia has made a similar observation(in reply to CB).

iguana

Wibbs wrote: »

Hmmm, this is going to be interesting. One the one side we have the "gender is a social construct and not really real" opinions, t'other side holds the opposite view. And both tend to come from the "progressive camp".

Why does it have to be one or the other? Gender is real and there are differences between men and women beyond the obvious differences of our physical bodies. There are certain traits more commonly found in men and some more commonly found in women. However those differences are not as enormous as many of our social and commercial norms imply. Boys can like pink and dolls, girls can like rough-housing and physical sports. There is nothing inherently male about construction toys and the Avengers, there is nothing inherently female about ballet and My Little Pony. There is nothing inherently male about not liking to dress up your appearance and nothing inherently female about eye-liner. Etc, etc.

Pushing children down particular avenues of interest because of their gender can and does lead to confusion about their gender and who they should really be. I have met many girls who wished to be boys as small children. Not because they were in the wrong body (as it was a wish they grew out of past puberty) but because they were told that so many of their interests were only for boys. I've not met any boys who wished to be girls for the same reasons, but I'm sure they too exist. I've read some interviews with parents of transgender children who have said that they knew their son was meant to be a girl at 18 months because he always chose pink sparkly toys. Which is a completely social construct that means nothing about a child's gender identity. That doesn't mean that there aren't some people who are genuinely mentally the opposite gender than that which they were born. But it is something to be careful about as a parent.

I allow my son to openly love and enjoy anything that takes his interest. He's just 3.5 and has no idea that there are 'girl toys' and 'boy toys' or 'girl cartoons' and 'boy cartoons.' His favourite things are cars and super/action heroes but he also enjoys ball, biking, Lego, books, My Little Pony, Frozen, dolls, his play kitchen, etc. And within reason I'll buy him any toy he likes. This way he is not likely to ever feel he should be female for more superficial reasons. So if one day he comes to me and tells me he wants to be a girl, I'll have good reason to believe it's because he really should have been born that way.

Wibbs

iguana wrote: »

I allow my son to openly love and enjoy anything that takes his interest. He's just 3.5 and has no idea that there are 'girl toys' and 'boy toys' or 'girl cartoons' and 'boy cartoons.' His favourite things are cars and super/action heroes but he also enjoys ball, biking, Lego, books, My Little Pony, Frozen, dolls, his play kitchen, etc. And within reason I'll buy him any toy he likes. This way he is not likely to ever feel he should be female for more superficial reasons. So if one day he comes to me and tells me he wants to be a girl, I'll have good reason to believe it's because he really should have been born that way.

How do you know you're not influencing his choices because of your feelings on the matter? Genuine question I. These things can be subtle, just as subtle as pink for girls, guns for boys. BTW to be clear I, I am not saying this is a bad thing or anything, but it is I feel a good question.

screamer

I don't know how id feel as a parent until faced with such a situation. What I do worry about is that there is such focus on choices etc and little scrutiny in underlying things like body dysmorphia etc. It is such an irreversible process I would definitely want to make sure any child of mine was fully evaluated in every way possible before undergoing such surgery.

drunkmonkey

You don't have any say once they turn 18 though, am I correct in thinking that?

There's a lot on the net about people regretting the operation as it doesn't give them what they expected. I'm not convinced surgery should be on the table, not sure what the criteria is in Ireland but the UK you have to be 2 years living as a woman to qualify any of the people who regretted the decision say that's not enough.

Wibbs

drunkmonkey wrote: »

any of the people who regretted the decision say that's not enough.

To be fair D, those who regret the decision aren't a good metric to judge by. Unless of course the make up a majority, but I've not seen any hard numbers that show even close to that. If there are any good long term studies on transgender folks that show a leaning either way I'm all ears, but until then...

Olishi4

I hope that in the OP, the siblings have been given the correct advice and the best outcome for their wellbeing and they are both content. I would be lying though if the thought hadn't entered my mind that perhaps one could be influencing the other or there could be some kind of codependent relationship between the two. In saying that, there is just as likely the case that they just happen to be both genuinely transgender and it seems that is what the experts have concluded.

I do remember watching an interview with a trans woman from Thailand a good few years ago and I remember it only vaguely but I do remember thinking that it had never occurred to me before that an incentive could make someone decide to undergo this transformation rather than a biological imperative. This trans woman openly admitted in interview that that they were neither gay, nor transgender, but did it because of no schooling and a possible form of income. I think that it also made them exempt from conscription to the military. Im not sure how common this is in Thailand and it was just one person but it's possible there are more that take this route. In fairness, I'm also not sure if they got correct assistance or how far they had gone in their transformation. It could have been that they had bought hormones from the black market.

Nothing to do with the OP but just the nurture vs nature argument, I remember watching a very upsetting doc years ago about the Reimer twins in Canada where a circumcision went wrong in one twin and the parents were advised by an expert doctor at the time (i think it was the 60s) to raise him as a girl and he went through the full procedure and transformation. Throughout the years, the doctor documented it as a success through bias for his belief that nurture could determine gender alone and I think this instance was used as justification for similar circumstances for a time. However it was not successful and the twins life was ruined. He began living as a man but unfortunately committed suicide some years later. You could also argue that it is just as tragic for anyone who feels trapped in the wrong body from birth so it's important that people are being understood and listened too.

I don't want to sound like I am only highlighting negatives because there are so many transgender people that absolutely are positive with their transformation and needed it and should be respected with their choices. It's just that there are possibilities that sometimes the experts can get it wrong and there is a possibility there could be some other underlying issue that is missed. This is, I guess, the fear that a parent would face like the op states. Not that they wouldn't support the choices of their child or their childs ultimate needs but worry that there is a chance they could support the wrong choice and I can't imagine that any parent wouldn't have that concern. It's a very difficult thing to be faced with for all involved.