Two Irish sisters used to be brothers

Calahonda52

Zaph wrote: »

... and there's a lot of psychological assessment and preparation beforehand. I sincerely doubt that you'd find a surgeon willing to carry out the surgery if they believed it was something being done on a whim.

Knowing what I do about the HSE, psychological assessment ( paid for both privately and by the State), and the 1999 scheme that supports these processes, I don't think I agree with that piece of your statement.

I agree the OP focus on how he/she might feel as a parent misses the point somewhat.

I just skimmed the Sun article:

“It sounds dramatic but I’m trying to undo the wrong that was done to me at birth and I don’t need any reminders of the struggle of having to carry this male body.”

So wronged at birth => a victim from birth, which the taxpayer has to pay for.

I wonder what Darwin would make of all this, it's a long way from the Galápagos Islands

Keep well.

line console zero

Wronged at birth indeed. Born into a perfectly healthy body they should consider themselves lucky.

A person can pretend to be what they want to be, I don't care. I would not treat someone different in the workplace for example, if they were trans. However I consider their condition to be a body dysmorphic disorder. This is what should be treated. Instead we feed into their disorder by going along with their fantasy, which enables it and builds them up for a future mental catastrophe.

Anorexia is another body dysmorphic disorder, where a person genuinely believes they are overwieght when in fact they are the opposite. Should we also go along with anorexic people and pretend that they are fat and encourage them in their transition to being skinny?

iguana

Wibbs wrote: »

How do you know you're not influencing his choices because of your feelings on the matter? Genuine question I. These things can be subtle, just as subtle as pink for girls, guns for boys. BTW to be clear I, I am not saying this is a bad thing or anything, but it is I feel a good question.

First off, there is nothing subtle about pink for girls, guns for boys. That's something that has grown far worse than it was during my childhood. Presumably because it's extremely profitable for companies to sell two of everything to parents who have a child of each gender.

As for the rest of your question. All parents influence their children both consciously and unconsciously. For example, my son would never know he loves going on his bike if I Santa hadn't given him a bike. When it comes to the toys/media he likes/loves I've tried very hard to allow him to enjoy what takes his fancy but while he came to a love of superheroes on his own, once he did it was something that I and my husband have almost certainly influenced as we both love that genre. But despite that he still drives his own interest for the most part. I've introduced him to some superheroes I hope he'll enjoy but he doesn't take to them and some of his favourites are ones I dislike. But obviously from his perspective the fact that his parents are genuinely excited by one of his interests is going to have an effect on him whether we want it to or not. Though he still loves all sorts of things that I find boring/baffling like Angry Birds and most of the traditional Disney stuff.

Clearlier

line console zero wrote: »

Wronged at birth indeed. Born into a perfectly healthy body they should consider themselves lucky.

A person can pretend to be what they want to be, I don't care. I would not treat someone different in the workplace for example, if they were trans. However I consider their condition to be a body dysmorphic disorder. This is what should be treated. Instead we feed into their disorder by going along with their fantasy, which enables it and builds them up for a future mental catastrophe.

Anorexia is another body dysmorphic disorder, where a person genuinely believes they are overwieght when in fact they are the opposite. Should we also go along with anorexic people and pretend that they are fat and encourage them in their transition to being skinny?

The treatment for gender dysphoria is transition and far from building them up for a future mental catastrophe it dramatically reduces their risk of attempting suicide.

You might find this interesting to read. It breaks down the statistic that 40% of transgender people attempt suicide. One of the more interesting points made is that the risk of suicide reverts to that of the general population for transgender people who 'pass' and are accepted as their gender in everyday life.

intheclouds

line console zero wrote: »

Wronged at birth indeed. Born into a perfectly healthy body they should consider themselves lucky.

A person can pretend to be what they want to be, I don't care. I would not treat someone different in the workplace for example, if they were trans. However I consider their condition to be a body dysmorphic disorder. This is what should be treated. Instead we feed into their disorder by going along with their fantasy, which enables it and builds them up for a future mental catastrophe.

Anorexia is another body dysmorphic disorder, where a person genuinely believes they are overwieght when in fact they are the opposite. Should we also go along with anorexic people and pretend that they are fat and encourage them in their transition to being skinny?

If there was a way to change their brain rather than their body so that their mental image of gender matched their physical would you accept that? Is it just the physical change you have an issue with? You seem to suggest that we should simply allow trans people to suffer so that we don't go along with a fantasy. So what is your solution to this?

If we "go along" with anorexic people they die. If we "go along" with trans people they live. I suspect the greater good is served by helping people rather than alienating them further?

drunkmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would bring you an heir and carry on the family

It seems when replying to you that many users here have taken you up on the trans issue. So to take a slightly different approach I think I would take you up on this one. I have a son now - 2 years old - and I have no such hopes or expectations.

My goal is to have a son who is happy. And unless his source of happiness turns out to be a detriment to anyone else's - such as him turning out to be a killer or rapist for example - then it is completely irrelevant to me where he derives his happiness from.

If his happiness involves his own procreation - and the longevity of my family - then I will revel in that with him. But I neither expect it - hope for it - nor intent to influence it.

And if his happiness involves changing gender - being homosexual - changing gender and _then_ being homosexual - living in a cave alone for 20 years without speaking - or anything else you might stereo-typically reject as being against what a father would hope for - then I am good with that too.

So I would re-write your sentence "As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would bring you an heir and carry on the family" as perhaps "As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would get through life being generally happy - and impact the happiness of others as little as possible".

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Any other dads concerned that it's all becoming a bit to easy and glamorous to be trans, panty made it to time magazine

Is panty trans? I thought Panty was a drag queen. I never knew! I learn something new here every day a thread gets going.

But no as a parent I am not that scared at all. Because there are some decisions no one makes simply on a whim. And I would like to live in a world where they can make the decisions they need to. And a world where the glamour serves to make it OK to be one of the people who makes it.

Contributor 2013

In the great words of someone much older and wiser than the majority of the boards members.

"So, What!?"

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I like to think my own child has more ambition than attempted infamy for entirely mundane reasons.

The wording here is in risk of making it sound like you think people change gender for mundane reasons - or as an attempt to gain infamy.

Probably not what you meant - but it reads that way.

Declan Inexpensive Toad

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

With all the advantages afforded to men in life

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

But I haven't been brainwashed into thinking my appearance is all that matters

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

I don't know how people become so absorbed by such a small facet of existence - gender

I am genuinely curious now. Why do you think people feel the need to change their physical gender? The way you describe it above it sounds like a fashion statement - or some expression to the outside world.

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

Like, their belief that they weren't born the correct gender. It's not nature that makes them think that, it's the nurture aspect of their lives

How sure are you of that? And why?

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The wording here is in risk of making it sound like you think people change gender for mundane reasons - or as an attempt to gain infamy.

Probably not what you meant - but it reads that way.

Ahh no tax, definitely not what I intended anyway. I meant something similar to I think it was Sleepy earlier who put it better in that I would hope my child would aim to be recognised for their achievements rather than gaining national attention because of their sexual or gender identity, which to me personally aren't and shouldn't be seen as something worthy of national recognition.

If I had really wanted to be a pedant, I would have pointed out in your own post that the sisters concerned aren't changing their gender, they were always female. They've come to national attention in the media because of the fact that they intend to change their sex.

Sonics2k

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just to add a little context here, their mum is a single Lesbian so the 2 boys didn't exactly have a normal upbringing and it looks like genetics and environment are at play.

Bollocks. Absolute bollocks.

Source:
Me. Straight male raised by a lesbian mother.

screamer

I still think underlying factors need to be evaluated. With studies there linked showing that reassignment does not always lead to happier people you have to wonder if the desire to be physically different is driven by some deeper psychological issues and in which case id wonder if the physical changes only bring temporary happiness as the psychological issues go unaddressed? Happiness is all that matters in life. No matter what you have or don't as long as you are happy with what you have you're a lucky person.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh no tax, definitely not what I intended anyway.

I did not think so - which is why I queried rather than challenged An outsider read of your post could very much be taken up wrong.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If I had really wanted to be a pedant, I would have pointed out in your own post that the sisters concerned aren't changing their gender, they were always female.

Which part of my post was that? As my post was made in a general sense without commenting on this particular case (of which I know _nothing about_) or any particular case.

Clearlier

screamer wrote: »

I still think underlying factors need to be evaluated. With studies there linked showing that reassignment does not always lead to happier people you have to wonder if the desire to be physically different is driven by some deeper psychological issues and in which case id wonder if the physical changes only bring temporary happiness as the psychological issues go unaddressed? Happiness is all that matters in life. No matter what you have or don't as long as you are happy with what you have you're a lucky person.

Here's the study that shows the physical changes improve mental health.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which part of my post was that? As my post was made in a general sense without commenting on this particular case (of which I know _nothing about_) or any particular case.

People who undergo transition aren't changing their gender. They are changing their sex.

ah that explains the "If I had really wanted to be a pedant" part then

I have never known you to stop yourself before. I look forward to exploring this new you

Asaiah

intheclouds wrote: »

If there was a way to change their brain rather than their body so that their mental image of gender matched their physical would you accept that? Is it just the physical change you have an issue with? You seem to suggest that we should simply allow trans people to suffer so that we don't go along with a fantasy. So what is your solution to this?

If we "go along" with anorexic people they die. If we "go along" with trans people they live. I suspect the greater good is served by helping people rather than alienating them further?

It's not the physical change that bothers me so much as it's the great big lie that we as a society are being told. That they were assigned the wrong gender at birth, that they are not suffering from a mental dismorphic condition, that they are victims of nature, that they are cultural heroes and should be praised and held up as role models for our young impressionable teens and adults alike.

I treat everyone equally but I will never believe a man is a woman, or vice versa. There are 2 genders, we are born that way and no amount of political or 'right on' activism will convince me otherwise. That's not to say I will treat people differently. All are equal to me. But if a man tells me he's a woman, sorry but that's simply not possible. More like he feels like a woman, or believes he is a woman. That's fine, but in the physical reality we all inhabit, he's still a man. This may be sad for him, but true nonetheless. They will never menstruate, they will never bear a child, they will never know a motherly instinct, they will not produce milk and they will not go through menopause. Because they are male.

When I was a kid I felt like Bruce Lee. It didn't make it real though.

No one knows what they want or who they are when they are teens, it's the most confusing time of ones life. Hormones are playing havok. It's the worst idea ever to make one of potentially 100's of phases and fads teens go through into a permanent life long body modification.

Starokan

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just after reading this news story in the Irish Sun, Two Irish sisters used to be brothers — until they came out as transgender together.

Story here, http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/news/7170700/Irish-brothers-who-are-now-sisters-OHerlihy-girls-were-born-boys.html

There portrayed as Glamour girls, they look great but as a parent this would be one of my worst nightmares i'm feel so sad for their parents, 2 sons and they both want their 3 piece suite removed. As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would bring you an heir and carry on the family, this must be unbelievable for their parents.
There has to be psychological issue here somewhere especially with the younger one as he probably mimicked their older brother.
I'm not sure the operation and the lifetime after care should be funded by the HSE.

Any other dads concerned that it's all becoming a bit to easy and glamorous to be trans, panty made it to time magazine, I just feel we've gone from one extreme to the other and everybody is afraid to say stop...

I know this thread won't go down well with a few people, my intention is not to offend them as I know what they've gone though isn't for the fun of it and they done it in a lot different time but as a parent this scares the hell out of me.

The process that someone must undergo to transition is far from easy or glamorous, from my understanding it places huge mental and physical demands on the person involved.

It's not something that doctors okay either at the first meeting , there are many criteria to be met and many psychological assessments to be carried out , if it was just a fad or an imitation of a sibling or friend I would be fairly sure that anyone who is not trans would have long given up on their ruse before they were allowed transition.

So no its definitely not easy or glamorous on the person but the whole stigma attached is lessening very slowly day by day, as this occurs you will see more trans people openly transition - it's logical as they no longer feel the need to hide as much. But will that mean someone will transition who is not actually trans at all - I do not think this will happen, you may get someone who is easily influenced claiming they are trans but will they go through the whole process right up to physical changes etc etc no I do not think they would put themselves through it even if they could fool the experts.

Slightly off topic but I do admire you for posting this thread though as its not the usual troll attempt at creating a ruckus, your concern is genuine and you have a right to express it.

Something that often gets forgotten about is the impact on the immediate family when a child or sibling declares themselves as gay or trans. In many cases a person is slammed for even expressing a degree of hurt or confusion about whats happening. In the majority of cases the family is impacted hugely and everyone takes time to adjust and everyone needs time to adjust and often needs help in understanding.

There are many wonderful people in the world who can accept anyone for anything , the truly accepting though will not pontificate about or against those who are not so quick to adjust to a new situation. They can recognise that the confused parent, friend or sibling has been conditioned to believe and react in a certain way and they can see that everyone needs time to get their heads around what's happening.

My own viewpoint is that I am absolutely delighted to see a world developing where gay people & trans people are no longer living in fear and seclusion and that they can live their lives as they believe best suits them. I would hate to think of someone going through their lives so utterly unhappy and at odds with their true nature.

But because of some experiences I have had and seen I understand the massive impact on the immediate family as well and It really annoys me when someone who expresses that can be so easily shot down as a bigot or a bad parent etc etc

The more everyone can talk about or express their own viewpoints the more we all grow by helping each other.

feargale

Zaph wrote: »

As a parent surely your priority is the happiness of your child, rather than worrying about how their actions will impact on you?

Where do you get the idea that OP's priority is anything other than the happiness of the child?

Asaiah

Asaiah wrote: »

More like he feels like a woman, or believes he is a woman. That's fine, but in the physical reality we all inhabit, he's still a man.

As I am a devils avocado here (Stephen Frys wonderful way of saying he was taking not just the opposite side but openly declaring himself as not having a side) - how are you defining "man" and "woman" here. Are you doing it at a social level? A genital level? A dna level? And how many of the exceptions to each of those levels are you aware of?

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

ah that explains the "If I had really wanted to be a pedant" part then

I have never known you to stop yourself before. I look forward to exploring this new you

I haven't changed either tax


/pedant :pac:

Moors De shame.

screamer

Clearlier wrote: »

Here's the study that shows the physical changes improve mental health.

The study that shows it works there are also studies that show it doesn't. I simply think that for some people it is truely what will make them happy for others not so and it's too big a gamble to take so final and so irreversible. Not something to be done without serious evaluation.

Asaiah

Deleted User wrote: »

As I am a devils avocado here (Stephen Frys wonderful way of saying he was taking not just the opposite side but openly declaring himself as not having a side) - how are you defining "man" and "woman" here. Are you doing it at a social level? A genital level? A dna level? And how many of the exceptions to each of those levels are you aware of?

For me it's Genetic, Biological and instinctual. There will always be mutations in any species. I am aware that some men will naturally be more feminine, and vice versa. We all know people who bear traits of the opposite sex to varying degree's of extremity. However a full body modification to become some idealised version of oneself. It's pretty much Michael Jackson territory for me.


I want to make the distinction that I have no issue with men dressing and living as a woman or vice versa if that is what they wish, it's when they start encouraging youth to go down this path medically because they may have an identity complex, when it really concerns me.

Wibbs

Clearlier wrote: »

Here's the study that shows the physical changes improve mental health.

Maybe I'm reading that wrong C, but the differences in outcome are tiny and across a tiny sample size with it(under 300?). I'm not saying it's wrong C and thanks for linking it, but it's an extremely small "study".

Deleted User wrote: »

As I am a devils avocado here (Stephen Frys wonderful way of saying he was taking not just the opposite side but openly declaring himself as not having a side)

Just like Fry, you most certainly have a "side", just going by your general history on such sociosexual matters. You've pinned your flag most solidly to the mast of being "right on" and "progressive" and that's perfectly fine, but like Fry maybe drop the disingenuous purely independent and non interested party stuff. You've skin in the game, own it.

how are you defining "man" and "woman" here. Are you doing it at a social level? A genital level? A dna level? And how many of the exceptions to each of those levels are you aware of?

There are always exceptions to every rule, but that by definition accepts that there is a rule to be defined in the first place. Biology, science and the completely bloody obvious can define "man" and "woman" pretty easily. XX/XY/male/female sexual characteristics that go from brain to bone. This doesn't mean folks aren't born intersex to varying degrees, that deviations from that binary don't exist, but they are faults/differences/beyond the norm. This does not mean such differences should be pilloried, society should and needs to be inclusive of such individuals, it does not need to deny that the difference exists and redefine the obvious.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Just like Fry, you most certainly have a "side", just going by your general history on such sociosexual matters. You've pinned your flag most solidly to the mast of being "right on" and "progressive" and that's perfectly fine, but like Fry maybe drop the disingenuous purely independent and non interested party stuff.

You just slapped a load of labels on me that I have never identified myself with - and then asked me to drop them. Perhaps put your own "mast" down before you advise me what to do with mine

drunkmonkey

Sonics2k wrote: »

Bollocks. Absolute bollocks.

Source:
Me. Straight male raised by a lesbian mother.

Sonics in this particular case you'd have to question the upbringing and environment. I'm not saying gay mother = gay children but when you have 2 boys that want to permanently alter their gender you'd have to wonder what happened.
What made me cringe on TV was the newstalk presenter giving birth, she had a birthing pool and right behind it so everyone watching could see was the LBGT flag, I didn't think it was necessary and it really felt like 2 fingers to anyone not on her side and complete exploitation of the birth of a child. I do wonder how that kid is going to turn out.
She herself was sexually abused as a child, could that have had an influence on her sexual preferences, again it's a question worth asking but there does seem to be some parallels with child abuse and sexual orientation.
There horrible topics but there not being discussed, fair play to Dill for speaking out but I lost all respect during that birth. It was completely self serving.

Clearlier

screamer wrote: »

The study that shows it works there are also studies that show it doesn't. I simply think that for some people it is truely what will make them happy for others not so and it's too big a gamble to take so final and so irreversible. Not something to be done without serious evaluation.

I'd be interested in reading some if you can tell me where I'd find them? Google only helps me find an article by Paul McHugh alongside about a million pointing out his errors.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

You just slapped a load of labels on me that I have never identified myself with - and then asked me to drop them. Perhaps put your own "mast" down before you advise me what to do with mine

Ahh the smiley. What once was an expression of low level mirth, has all too often since become an expression of low level passive aggressiveness. Do you really want anyone to reference your position on such matters and still claim you've no self identification with the "labels" I suggested? Never mind that I did not suggest you drop such opinions and positions, I merely suggested to maybe drop the disingenuous I have no side in play that you claim.

drunkmonkey

In fairness to Tax he's not in the environment can have 0% influence on sexual orientation club. He is open to different schools of thought but it does take a fair bit of pulling and dragging to get it out of him.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Ahh the smiley. What once was an expression of low level mirth, has all too often since become an expression of low level passive aggressiveness.

I do not envy you that experience. When I use it - it generally means how I am feeling at the end of an interaction with another human being. Which - correct me if I am wrong - it generally used to mean

Wibbs wrote: »

Do you really want anyone to reference your position on such matters and still claim you've no self identification with the "labels" I suggested?

I would generally hope people would reference my positions on what I last said. Rather than labels you just slapped upon me that I have to divest myself of. Or history you might be able to find and comment upon instead of what I just wrote.

Or put in simpler language - could you reply to the last post and not other ones my user name might bring to mind?

Wibbs wrote: »

I have no side in play that you claim.

I dont. In a Trans thread. I actually dont. I do not even know why you might act like I do. I really dont. And I am not even sure why you think I might. Seriously.

Jimoslimos

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Link from pubmed

Just because a paper is indexed by Pubmed doesn't necessarily mean that in many cases it isn't little more than an opinion piece. It also reaffirms my personal opinion that psychiatrists and psychologists know little about endocrinology (I used to work in the area) and vice versa.

line console zero wrote: »

A person can pretend to be what they want to be, I don't care. I would not treat someone different in the workplace for example, if they were trans. However I consider their condition to be a body dysmorphic disorder. This is what should be treated. Instead we feed into their disorder by going along with their fantasy, which enables it and builds them up for a future mental catastrophe.

intheclouds wrote: »

If we "go along" with anorexic people they die. If we "go along" with trans people they live. I suspect the greater good is served by helping people rather than alienating them further?

Funnily enough I'd agree with both the above viewpoints. I also don't think the media/reporting helps either with quotes such as "born into the wrong body", or "assigned (ugh) the wrong gender". It immediately introduces negative connotations towards ones body and IMO can trigger a self-fulfilling belief that something needs fixing.

Psychiatry/Psychology has to date, proved largely useless in identifying the causes and in treating transgenderism (some of the stuff is pure quackery). It has therefore fallen to other areas of medicine (cosmetic surgery and endocrinologists) to step in where psychiatry has failed. Hormonal treatment and reassignment surgery work by reducing anxiety. Not ideal and there is debate over whether the guiding principle of medicine, Primum non nocere, is being violated - however it currently is the safest option for some patients. Doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for better therapies.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

People who undergo transition aren't changing their gender. They are changing their sex.

I'll step in and be the pedant here, they're not. They're changing their outward physical appearance to greater resemble the other sex.

Jimoslimos

Jimoslimos wrote: »

there is debate over whether the guiding principle of medicine, Primum non nocere, is being violated

How do you feel about that principle in terms of Apotemnophilia or BIID?

I think there are a lot of doctors in those cases who think hacking off a limb does not violate Primum non nocere because it cures the patient of what ails them to the best of our current medicine.

And I am sure the "best" solution would be to reach into their brain and re-align their brain with their body map so they do not want to hack off their limb. But is _that_ ethical? Because are we changing their body map - or their self identity?

For example there have been many deaf people offered "hearing" in their later life but refused it because being deaf is how they self identified.

Primum non nocere is a wonderful ideal - do not get me wrong. But it's application is not so ideal. Even if we discovered tomorrow a simple little gene that explained why all transgender people feel the wrong sex - and we put a "cure" for it in a tiny little pill - and put it on the NHS/NHE - would we expect them all to take it - or even consider it? And if they still presented before us looking for surgery would we still cling to Primum non nocere?

Medical ethics The stuff of nightmares

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Or put in simpler language - could you reply to the last post and not other ones my user name might bring to mind?

*cough*

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have never known you to stop yourself before. I look forward to exploring this new you

So no reply then as usual?

Sleepy

Right, I'm going to ask the question that popped into my head earlier. Please forgive the fact that it's probably insulting and accept that it's coming from a position of ignorance rather than a desire to hurt anyone's feelings or insult anyone...

If there's evidence that there are genetic / physical differences in the brains of transgender people, then why isn't this being used as part of the assessment of those requesting gender re-assignment surgery (assuming that it's not already)?

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

If there's evidence that there are genetic / physical differences in the brains of transgender people, then why isn't this being used as part of the assessment of those requesting gender re-assignment surgery (assuming that it's not already)?

It is a Pandora box situation alas. Our evidence and data on the subject is young - limited - and small.

My own knowledge of the situation/condition is extremely limited too. I am not even up on the current "lingo" related to the memetic evolution of how such people have even managed to express themselves.

I myself am limited almost entirely to precedent to similar subjective experiences. Such as that of Apotemnophilia - where we have not only identified that there _are_ legitimate reasons for why people want to hack off their own limbs - but we almost now understand _why_ they want to do it.

And this precedent lends credence to the _wealth_ of anecdote of people who simply tell us they feel "wrong" in the bodies they have been "given". and explains entirely that - in the lack of any alternative - they would seek surgical methods to resolve their conflict.

so the answer to your question is not easy. From a scientific perspective it is an open question. From a Humanistic perspective it requires purely human empathy. Empathy that - alas - at least one person on this thread even scoffs at the existence of given he thinks that any attempt to put yourself in anyone elses shoes makes you instantly an idiot.

One eyed Jack

Sleepy wrote: »

If there's evidence that there are genetic / physical differences in the brains of transgender people, then why isn't this being used as part of the assessment of those requesting gender re-assignment surgery (assuming that it's not already)?

Well, the research would inform the assessment in the very same way as new research and developments inform any medical assessment. The HSE page on gender dysphoria is a good read:


http://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/G/Gender-dysphoria/

frostyjacks

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just after reading this news story in the Irish Sun, Two Irish sisters used to be brothers — until they came out as transgender together.

Story here, http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/news/7170700/Irish-brothers-who-are-now-sisters-OHerlihy-girls-were-born-boys.html

There portrayed as Glamour girls, they look great but as a parent this would be one of my worst nightmares i'm feel so sad for their parents, 2 sons and they both want their 3 piece suite removed. As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would bring you an heir and carry on the family, this must be unbelievable for their parents.
There has to be psychological issue here somewhere especially with the younger one as he probably mimicked their older brother.
I'm not sure the operation and the lifetime after care should be funded by the HSE.

Any other dads concerned that it's all becoming a bit to easy and glamorous to be trans, panty made it to time magazine, I just feel we've gone from one extreme to the other and everybody is afraid to say stop...

I know this thread won't go down well with a few people, my intention is not to offend them as I know what they've gone though isn't for the fun of it and they done it in a lot different time but as a parent this scares the hell out of me.

Yeah, it seemed to go overnight from an object of ridicule to something we should be ashamed of if we're not out banging the drum for.

These boys parent's allowed them to dress in skirts and pretend to be Britney Spears etc. I'm all for letting kids explore the world around them, but there comes a time where you have to step in and say, "No son, boys don't do this." It's a father's duty to his sons.

drunkmonkey

We don't know anything about the father in this case, we can only assume he wasn't around as not many guys I know would let their sons work as a drag queen in the George or panty bar, there both friends with Rory O'Neill on Facebook, if he was allowing 16yr old to do that in his bar he's a few questions to answer. I doubt it's illegal but he's old enough to know better. To think he's a hero is absurd.

Wibbs

Sleepy wrote: »

Right, I'm going to ask the question that popped into my head earlier. Please forgive the fact that it's probably insulting and accept that it's coming from a position of ignorance rather than a desire to hurt anyone's feelings or insult anyone...

If there's evidence that there are genetic / physical differences in the brains of transgender people, then why isn't this being used as part of the assessment of those requesting gender re-assignment surgery (assuming that it's not already)?

From what I've read on the subject the hard science seems to show some gender brain differences alright. Outcomes after brain injury and stroke show gender differences, where women tend to have better outcomes. The amygdala was noted for showing some correlation with gender and sexuality. EG that area of the brain in gay women looked more like straight men than straight women. Similar was found going the other way, so gay men's amygdalae looked more like straight women's, rather than straight men's. Again from what I recall there were some hemispherical differences too. Straight women and gay men tended to have brain hemispheres of more equal size, whereas straight men and gay women showed more of a size difference.

These were notable, but small differences and of course there would be a sliding scale, but I would personally feel that along with hormonal exposure differences that it would explain much about individual's sexuality and gender experience. It would also explain transsexuality, where such differences are at the very extreme end so rather than feel like gay men and women, they quite literally feel in the wrong body. It wouldn't be dysmorphic disorder either, though might present as such. Unlike thinking you're fat, when it's obvious you're skin and bones, such a person would literally have the "wrong" brain in the "wrong" body.

As for the young ages that people are being seen for this condition. Yes I fully admit a visceral reticence about starting therapies so young. However I knew two lads from the start of junior school who later turned out to be gay and even at that very early age there was something different about them. The other kids saw it and many years later on I asked one of them did they know they were different from the general and he said he did. He couldn't remember feeling like the other boys. He couldn't name it, but he knew it. He had a precocious sense of difference, at an age where sexuality was based on "girls are horrible. eeeeeugh". In conversation a few other gay lads have told me similar. Gay and bi women I've known this seemed to be less in play(I didn't and don't know any bi men well so…). Asexual folks didn't seem to feel different until puberty kicked off and everyone else seemed to be charged up and they weren't. Tiny sample sizes of course, but I found it interesting.

But yeah, if a gay guy feels different at 6, it is hardly a stretch that a transexual person is also fully aware of a difference.

frostyjacks wrote: »

Yeah, it seemed to go overnight from an object of ridicule to something we should be ashamed of if we're not out banging the drum for.

I see your point and somewhat agree. I certainly don't like the attempted social engineering by certain sections of the media and interested pressure groups when they consider even asking questions beyond the Pale.

These boys parent's allowed them to dress in skirts and pretend to be Britney Spears etc. I'm all for letting kids explore the world around them, but there comes a time where you have to step in and say, "No son, boys don't do this." It's a father's duty to his sons.

I disagree with this. Never mind that it'll likely have little of the desired effect, if anything is just as likely to get a kid's heels digging in, particularly as they become more independent in adolescence.

Sonics2k

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Sonics in this particular case you'd have to question the upbringing and environment. I'm not saying gay mother = gay children but when you have 2 boys that want to permanently alter their gender you'd have to wonder what happened.

You can wonder about it, but the fact if that upbringing has very little, if any, actual influence on the sexuality of a person.

My own mother for example was raised by a typical Catholic family, working father and stay at home mother as well as a brother and sister. Her childhood was basically the same as that of her sister, and she is straight.
I was raised in pretty much the same way as my cousin, and both of us are straight.
Again, upbringing has no real influence on sexuality, it's a simply a genetic trait.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What made me cringe on TV was the newstalk presenter giving birth, she had a birthing pool and right behind it so everyone watching could see was the LBGT flag, I didn't think it was necessary and it really felt like 2 fingers to anyone not on her side and complete exploitation of the birth of a child. I do wonder how that kid is going to turn out.
She herself was sexually abused as a child, could that have had an influence on her sexual preferences, again it's a question worth asking but there does seem to be some parallels with child abuse and sexual orientation.
There horrible topics but there not being discussed, fair play to Dill for speaking out but I lost all respect during that birth. It was completely self serving.

I honestly know little about this whole thing, because I don't watch RTE because it's largely absolute crap.
But I will address the sexual abuse aspect. As someone who has personally and directly worked with and been friends with victims of childhood abuse, this again does not seem to have any impact on sexuality.
In some cases the person simply shuts down at the idea of sex, some I've known have been into some pretty rough stuff, and others have had "normal" sex lives.

~On-Topic as per the OP~
If one of my own two children was Trans, then I personally would not give a flying ****e. At the end of the day a parents job is to ensure their child is educated, loved, taken care of and happy.
I would support my child through their transition if that is what they wanted.

Personally from reading this thread I see an awful lot of speculation, most likely from people who do not know anyone who is Trans. In which case I can only suggest you do speak to trans people, such as Links234 here on boards.

Right now there is a lot of abuse being aimed toward the Trans community, with a disgustingly high level of suicide amongst young trans people. Sadly this coming from a lot of sides, both from the right wing side who hurl abuse, dismiss and tell them they actually have a mental disorder and can be cured (we've seen this before y'know), but also from young "trendy" kids on sites like Twitter and Tumblr who are using the whole thing to draw attention to themselves and are muddying the water between actual Trans people and attention seekers.

Ohbethehokey

How do lesbians get pregnant?

Science must have moved on without me

One eyed Jack

Ohbethehokey wrote: »

How do lesbians get pregnant?

Science must have moved on without me

Same way as any other woman who has the capacity to become pregnant gets pregnant. That's not so much anything to do with scientific advances in fertility treatments as it has to do with the most basic understanding of human biology.

seamus

Ignoring the last 2 pages of discussion, to go back to the, "this seems to be getting paraded in the press" issue. Yes, it does. After spending many years in the background and being ridiculed, the media have cottoned onto the fact that society actually wants to look favourably on trans people coming out and so the media prints favourable coming out stories.

The idea that positive coverage "encourages" young people to change gender is of course absurd. Suggesting that a young man or woman will change their gender because it's trendy is as absurd as suggesting that they might choose to be gay to fit in.

Does it seem like the volume of people coming out is on the rise? Yes. And that's because people are far less afraid to do so. We're still in a transitory period where acceptance is far from 100%, but it's getting there. Trans in particular is new and shiny and conspicuous. So trans stories with a twist generate media interest. Like siblings who both turn out to be trans.

When it becomes no longer remarkable that someone might reveal themselves to be trans, then the media will largely ignore it.

As a parent am I afraid my child/children will choose to be trans because the media have made it trendy/sexy? No. Like I say, that's absurd.

Would I feel disappointed if it happened? I'm not going to say I wouldn't. As a parent you create visions in your head of what your child will be like, who they are, what they do. From the earliest age in your head they're your little girl/boy. If they come out as trans there's going to be a period of adjustment, even mourning, as you come to terms with the reality that they're now your little boy instead of your little girl.
But ultimately provided the child knows who they are and is happy with it, as a parent that's job done. The parents' job is not to decide on who a child will be, the parents' job is simply to be curator of the childs' life until adulthood, to ensure they have the opportunity to discover who they are.

It is not for parents to map out the child's entire life. You're just setting yourself up for disappointment when the adult they become doesn't follow that map.

speedboatchase

Ohbethehokey wrote: »

How do lesbians get pregnant?

Science must have moved on without me

It's 2016. Men can get pregnant, if they have wombs. Hell, someone could impregnate you when you were a woman and you could give birth nine months later as a man. Don't question any of this or the internet will ruin you.

Clearlier

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe I'm reading that wrong C, but the differences in outcome are tiny and across a tiny sample size with it(under 300?). I'm not saying it's wrong C and thanks for linking it, but it's an extremely small "study".

It's far from a conclusive study (apologies for the way I presented it which made it appear as if it were conclusive evidence) but it is pretty strong evidence.

With respect to the differences in outcome what I linked to doesn't so far as I can see state the magnitude of the difference in mental health related quality of life using any numbers. As far as I understand them P-values just describe the likelihood of the accuracy of a result rather than talking about the result itself.

What it does do is group together transgender people and the general population which implies that there isn't any difference between them - that's what I'd really like to see the full text to confirm though. It would be a heinous error but not unprecedented if there was a significant difference in mental health quality of life.

Assuming that that heinous error (or one like it) hasn't been made it's saying that transgender people who have undergone GRS and/or FFS have a mental health quality of life comparable to the general population and I'd guess that transgender people who haven't had these interventions have the fairly widely reported 40%+ chance of attempting suicide.

The other article that I linked to earlier does a good job of breaking down that 40% and identify in a bit more detail the risk factors for suicide attempts.

eviltwin

drunkmonkey wrote: »

We don't know anything about the father in this case, we can only assume he wasn't around as not many guys I know would let their sons work as a drag queen in the George or panty bar, there both friends with Rory O'Neill on Facebook, if he was allowing 16yr old to do that in his bar he's a few questions to answer. I doubt it's illegal but he's old enough to know better. To think he's a hero is absurd.

You stalking these girls now or something?

philstar

the legs are a giveaway

drunkmonkey

eviltwin wrote: »

You stalking these girls now or something?

Quick google and it's all there, it said in the article one of them was a drag queen in dublin at 16. Tags Rory in things, doesn't take a scientist to figure it out.