The future of James Bond

silverharp

FunLover18 wrote: »

We're veering drastically off topic but why are we talking about representation in terms of population? Do minorities have less right to representation in film?

its a trick question right? nobody has any rights minorities or majorities

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So if the market wants a change of bond, you're fine with it?

i said their only consideration should be $$$ , as for your question, before they make the movie they would be guessing what the market wants, one would only know after the fact whether they had pleased the market or not.

FunLover18

silverharp wrote: »

thats like complaining that Bollywood is made up of 99% Indians :pac:

You must have your facts wrong, because Asians don't have any sex appeal. No way could they sustain an entire film industry.

silverharp wrote: »

i said their only consideration should be $$$ , as for your question, before they make the movie they would be guessing what the market wants, one would only know after the fact whether they had pleased the market or not.

Well Black Panther just had Marvel's biggest ever opening weekend domestically so ...

DeadHand

Bond is based closely on a composite of British intelligence agents at large in the Mediterranean during WW2- a theatre his creator, Ian Fleming, was also active in. These were all white men.

Bond is an explicitly white, male character.

Part of the charm has been seeing him attempting to evolve to the demands of an ever changing world as his core being (drunk, murderous horndog) remains the same.

Butcher the character for political reasons and that’s lost. Tokenism and racial and/or sexual politics have already ruined Ghostbusters and the Dark Tower- I dearly hope Bond doesn’t go the same way.

On a broader note, I wish SJWs would leave art for normal people to enjoy it. Having ruined almost everything else, they want to sh!t next on anything that may provide escapism from their bullying. Modern puritans with a compulsion to dictate to the majority the type of things they should enjoy.

Boring, useless people

silverharp

FunLover18 wrote: »

You must have your facts wrong, because Asians don't have any sex appeal. No way could they sustain an entire film industry.

I was using asian in the american oriental sense, and you are strawmanning me a bit, i never said "Asians don't have any sex appeal"

FunLover18 wrote: »

Well Black Panther just had Marvel's biggest ever opening weekend domestically so ...

so..what? surely the whole point was that they should write black or asian characters or whatever

FunLover18

DeadHand wrote: »

Bond is based closely on a composite of British intelligence agents at large in the Mediterranean during WW2- a theatre his creator, Ian Fleming, was also active in. These were all white men.

Bond is an explicitly white, male character.

Part of the charm has been seeing him attempting to evolve to the demands of an ever changing world as his core being (drunk, murderous horndog) remains the same.

Butcher the character for political reasons and that’s lost. Tokenism and racial and/or sexual politics have already ruined Ghostbusters and the Dark Tower- I dearly hope Bond doesn’t go the same way.

On a broader note, I wish SJWs would leave art for normal people to enjoy it. Having ruined almost everything else, they want to sh!t next on anything that may provide escapism from their bullying. Modern puritans with a compulsion to dictate to the majority the type of things they should enjoy.

Boring, useless people

Bond stories are longer set set during World War 2. I fail to see why only white men can be drunk, murderous horndogs struggling to evolve in a changing world.

Curious about your logic where people who are open to change and diversity are boring, useless Puritans.

FunLover18

silverharp wrote: »

No offense to Asian men but Bond is supposed to be capable of charming the knickers of a nun, Difficult to see Jackie Chan playing the spirit of 007. 008 to 0013 are free to open up a whole Bond universe and they can all slip in and out of each other's movies, itil be great, honest gov'ner.

Implying Asians aren't charming or lack the ability to seduce.

silverharp wrote: »

I don't watch rom coms as a rule but are Asians ever the male love interest? also we are talking movies here where they are very fussy about who they pick , I mean there is capable, but there is also getting the cinema public chattering about their sex appeal good looks yada yada. Im not sure an Asian actor would generate that kind of interest in a Bond movie.

Like I said I think the best way to expand the range is to create new 00 characters and make other movies.

Bringing up lack of Asian leads in rom-coms to back up your point and then suggesting that an Asian actor wouldn't generate the necessary buzz re sex appeal.

At least this is what I took from your posts. And yes Black Panther's success does prove that their is an audience for black and Asian original characters, which is great. But there's still no narrative or contextual reason why Bond couldn't be portrayed by a non-white actor.

dr.fuzzenstein

I think Lucy Lu should play All Bundy if they ever go for a reboot. All for the sake of diversity.

silverharp

FunLover18 wrote: »

Implying Asians aren't charming or lack the ability to seduce.



Bringing up lack of Asian leads in rom-coms to back up your point and then suggesting that an Asian actor wouldn't generate the necessary buzz re sex appeal.

At least this is what I took from your posts. And yes Black Panther's success does prove that their is an audience for black and Asian original characters, which is great. But there's still no narrative or contextual reason why Bond couldn't be portrayed by a non-white actor.

to use your line of reasoning you have suggested that I said that on a scale of 1 to 10 every asian male has a score of 0. I said no such thing

silverharp

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I think Lucy Lu should play All Bundy if they ever go for a reboot. All for the sake of diversity.

and maybe the next Black Panther actor should be white or hispanic. Easy enough to write into the story :pac: any push back would be racist :cool:

kwestfan08

I don't get the push back to a black bond at all. Personally I think Daniel Kaluuya will be the next bond. Idris Elba is just too old to play the character long term.

dr.fuzzenstein

kwestfan08 wrote: »

I don't get the push back to a black bond at all. Personally I think Daniel Kaluuya will be the next bond. Idris Elba is just too old to play the character long term.

Don't mind it too much. It worked for Felix Leiter.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

and maybe the next Black Panther actor should be white or hispanic. Easy enough to write into the story :pac: any push back would be racist :cool:

You can if you like. But that line of reasoning only works if you’re willing to make the argument that your own pushback against any change to Bond is racist.

Bond is changing all the time without this level of fear. Why is the gender and ethnicity of the character worth all this fear?

El_Duderino 09

And for all the talk about what bond is and how he can never change, nobody is being honest and expressing the real reason for opposing the change.

Gender and ethnicity are factors which make the character ‘like me’. The more like me he is, the easier it is to empathise with the character and imagine yourself as the character. White characters have greater likeness to white people, men have more likeness to men.

Making the character non white and male would likely increase connection with the audience like the new actor and reduce connection with white men.

It’s as simple as that. What it boils down to is ‘I want bond to look like me because reasons’. The conclusion has that bond should look like me. The arguments are random.

A. ‘Bond can never change’
B. ‘Bond changes all the time’
A. ‘Fine, lots of aspects of bond change but he has to be a white man, that can never change’

bnt

We already have many explicitly comic interpretations of the James Bond concept, such as Austin Powers, Get Smart, Johnny English, and so on.

I personally found that a little show of self-awareness is enough. George Lazenby saying "this never happened to the other fella" in my favourte Bond film was quite sufficient.

micks_address

bnt wrote: »

We already have many explicitly comic interpretations of the James Bond concept, such as Austin Powers, Get Smart, Johnny English, and so on.

I personally found that a little show of self-awareness is enough. George Lazenby saying "this never happened to the other fella" in my favourte Bond film was quite sufficient.

Is there talk of cillian Murphy taking the role? My son and his friend were on about it today

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And for all the talk about what bond is and how he can never change, nobody is being honest and expressing the real reason for opposing the change.

Gender and ethnicity are factors which make the character ‘like me’. The more like me he is, the easier it is to empathise with the character and imagine yourself as the character. White characters have greater likeness to white people, men have more likeness to men.

Making the character non white and male would likely increase connection with the audience like the new actor and reduce connection with white men.

It’s as simple as that. What it boils down to is ‘I want bond to look like me because reasons’. The conclusion has that bond should look like me. The arguments are random.

A. ‘Bond can never change’
B. ‘Bond changes all the time’
A. ‘Fine, lots of aspects of bond change but he has to be a white man, that can never change’

I don't buy your "like me " argument , its more about having a character that carries something of what you remember of that character. Lets say they were going to do a remake of Trading Places or Beverly Hills Cop , I would expect the new main actor to be black. I'd reckon there would be a better chance of continuity about what I liked in the original movies.

FunLover18

silverharp wrote: »

to use your line of reasoning you have suggested that I said that on a scale of 1 to 10 every asian male has a score of 0. I said no such thing

No, you didn't say it like that but your general implication was that Asian actors are not as sexually appealing to the masses as white actors and therefore they couldn't play Bond convincingly.

FunLover18

silverharp wrote: »

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I think Lucy Lu should play All Bundy if they ever go for a reboot. All for the sake of diversity.

and maybe the next Black Panther actor should be white or hispanic. Easy enough to write into the story :pac: any push back would be racist :cool:

Once again being black is an intrinsic part of the Black Panther character and story. Bond's race is irrelevant to both.

silverharp

FunLover18 wrote: »

No, you didn't say it like that but your general implication was that Asian actors are not as sexually appealing to the masses as white actors and therefore they couldn't play Bond convincingly.

so are you saying im wrong, or its wrong to point it out? check out racial dating preferences if you doubt, you are talking about some executive who has to sign off on shelling out $150/$200 million on a movie. Do you think they don't pour over these decisions? unless they specifically target the movie for the Chinese market and the plot is set in China then there could be an issue with an Asian lead.
When "blonde" bond came on the scene, was the discussion in those terms for the male demographic or the female? I as a male certainly could have cared less but I assume they wanted the women's magazines etc to chatter about it and create more hype.

Once again being black is an intrinsic part of the Black Panther character and story. Bond's race is irrelevant to both.

its fiction, you could introduce a character of a different race someone adopted at birth or whatever, look at Star Trek, they are running with a human Vulcan, Black Panther's super powers come from eating a rare herb? there is nothing racially specific about that. it would probably be commercial suicide but whatever.

valoren

A double feature set during the cold war, say the late 50's, early 60's, essentially a period film made with modern technology, would be interesting. A cliffhanger ending and a direct sequel with Bond as per the source material i.e. white and unconventionally good looking. Picture James Norton in 60's casual clothes and sharp suits of course a sparkling script and top stuntwork would be a winning formula.

Tony EH

Heres how Ian Flemming described Bond...

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

I don't buy your "like me " argument , its more about having a character that carries something of what you remember of that character. Lets say they were going to do a remake of Trading Places or Beverly Hills Cop , I would expect the new main actor to be black. I'd reckon there would be a better chance of continuity about what I liked in the original movies.

These very little to get. Movies with a mostly black cast will likely be more interesting to black audiences. The same goes for bond. The main character is a white man -just like you. So the conclusion is that most aspects of bond can change and indeed the have changed. But his whiteness and maleness must never change. Any old argument will do to reach that conclusion.

Of all the things that can never change about bond, why is the gender and race so important to you?

Hande hoche!

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

These very little to get. Movies with a mostly black cast will likely be more interesting to black audiences. The same goes for bond. The main character is a white man -just like you. So the conclusion is that most aspects of bond can change and indeed the have changed. But his whiteness and maleness must never change. Any old argument will do to reach that conclusion.

Of all the things that can never change about bond, why is the gender and race so important to you?

Exactly we should move onto his sexuality. Have a bi-curious bond.

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

These very little to get. Movies with a mostly black cast will likely be more interesting to black audiences. The same goes for bond. The main character is a white man -just like you. So the conclusion is that most aspects of bond can change and indeed the have changed. But his whiteness and maleness must never change. Any old argument will do to reach that conclusion.

Of all the things that can never change about bond, why is the gender and race so important to you?

we are not talking about "Movies with a mostly black cast will likely be more interesting to black audiences" I gave you examples of possible movie remakes where I would like the existing lead to still be black.

its not important to me as such Im just trying to predict where movie companies go wrong or get it right. dare I mention Ghostbusters 2016

El_Duderino 09

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Exactly we should move onto his sexuality. Have a bi-curious bond.

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Exactly we should move onto his sexuality. Have a bi-curious bond.

They CAN if they like. They don’t HAVE TO do anything. They don’t even have to make any more bond movies.

Bond is imaginary and movies are art so it can be reimagined any way they like.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote: »

we are not talking about "Movies with a mostly black cast will likely be more interesting to black audiences" I gave you examples of possible movie remakes where I would like the existing lead to still be black.

its not important to me as such Im just trying to predict where movie companies go wrong or get it right. dare I mention Ghostbusters 2016

I’m talking about the race/gender makeup of the cast and main character because it’s the crux of the issue. You’re avoiding g talking about it for the same reason. You don’t want bond to change because he’s already like you and any change from white middle aged man would be a move away from yourself.

It’s gone back and forth for ages so; what’s the best reasons why they can change lots and of aspects of bond, but gender and race must never change? Best 3 reasons?

FunLover18

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Exactly we should move onto his sexuality. Have a bi-curious bond.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

They CAN if they like. They don’t HAVE TO do anything. They don’t even have to make any more bond movies.

Bond is imaginary and movies are art so it can be reimagined any way they like.

FunLover18

silverharp wrote: »

so are you saying im wrong, or its wrong to point it out? check out racial dating preferences if you doubt, you are talking about some executive who has to sign off on shelling out $150/$200 million on a movie. Do you think they don't pour over these decisions? unless they specifically target the movie for the Chinese market and the plot is set in China then there could be an issue with an Asian lead.
When "blonde" bond came on the scene, was the discussion in those terms for the male demographic or the female? I as a male certainly could have cared less but I assume they wanted the women's magazines etc to chatter about it and create more hype.

Both. To say that an Asian actor can't play James Bond because they lack the sex appeal is ridiculous and wrong. You mentioned earlier that they're never the lead in rom-coms (or many movies for that matter) and you're assuming that that's because audiences don't find them sexually attractive but di you ever consider that audiences don't consider them attractive because they've never seen Asian men portrayed in a romantic leading role. The world has been brought up on mostly white leading men for nearly a century now and I think it's foolish to underestimate that influence. I don't see any evidence to suggest that an Asian Bond wouldn't make money, even the 'Bond-must-be-white-die-hards' would turn out in hope of it being terrible. We've just had a Black superhero film that is breaking records in the box-office and it's not just black people turning out to see it. I think you'll find that the 'like me/way I remember it' viewpoint is restricted to a small minority and it's narrow-minded. I remember Bond as a white dude just like you when I think of his character, his personality, I think cold, distant, suave, charming, I don't think white because white isn't a personality trait (neither is Black or Asian). Skin colour can have an influence on personality due to how certain races are treated and their position in society but Bond is not a man who has been shaped by the colour of his skin; he is a well-educated orphan of a wealthy family who travelled a lot, joined the Ministry of Defence and became a spy. There's absolutely nothing about his personality or background requires him to be white except the author who created him was white and created him at a time of white dominance.

silverharp wrote: »

its fiction, you could introduce a character of a different race someone adopted at birth or whatever, look at Star Trek, they are running with a human Vulcan, Black Panther's super powers come from eating a rare herb? there is nothing racially specific about that. it would probably be commercial suicide but whatever.

Black Panther is so much more than a set of superpowers gained from eating a herb - he's an African prince, descended from a line of African royalty who have all been the Black Panther before him. His African heritage is absolutely vital to the character and what he represents.

BuilderPlumber

The debate about what Bond should look like, be and act has been going on for quite some time. While the character has changed over the years and so have the films, the fundamentals stay the same. Bond is a white English based assassin of Scottish and Swiss ancestry. He is male and likes his women a lot!

Altering franchises too much would be wrong. I have mixed views with altering the Bond character. I feel there are certain things should be left as is. Bond should be male, based out of England and being heterosexual. The background of the actor should not be of concern. English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh and Australian actors have convincingly played him. An American could play him too (Harrison Ford would have been a great Bond for example).

With regard to a black, Asian, etc. Bond, I am less rigid on this than some. As long as the other attributes of his character are kept in place, there shouldn't be a problem. Look at The Equaliser, a white actor played him in the series and a black actor in the film but the character was the same.

Bizarrely, Bond was considered to have been changed once way back. Rebooting Bond to be from a different country with a different nationality (in both cases American) was actually considered in the 1970s. If Connery didn't come back for Diamonds Are Forever, chances are an American actor would play him then and Bond would be an American franchise. Also, we tend to forget that a TV version of Casino Royale from the 1950s was actually featuring an American Bond!