Bad review - being managed out

LegacyUser

Hi All,

I'm looking for a bit of advice.
Today I got my first bad review in 9 years with my company.
Basically the reason given was that someone had to get it.
I told my manager I absolutely disagree with it.

This company manage people out.
I have had a dispute with HR recently over my package in comparison to my immediate colleagues. I should have gone the union route but thought I could get it sorted.

Today my manager effectively stated to me that I am going to be managed out.
To be honest, I'd be happy to go at this point but I do not intend to go without a package.
I know some people have gotten redundancy on the quiet recently.

Has anyone any experience or advice on how to navigate this one?

Thanks,

WTD

livedadream

If your manager told you that you are being managed out start recording everything and ask for official letters or all warnings, PIPs, performance reviews etc.

Speak to the union and advise them that you have a fear you are being managed out and could they monitor if from their side.

Play stupid when it comes to HR and your manger etc, and wait for them to take action.

Get your ducks in a row and be ready to take a case if you are dismissed.

LegacyUser

Are you definitely sure that's what your manager said first of all? It's hard when you're in the middle of a review like that to think straight.

It is possible to do this but make sure you really want to go before you approach your manager as you can't go back once it's said. I did it a while back however I had been in the situation for a few years & had tried everything possible to make it work before I eventually asked if anything was available to help me leave. I worked for a small company and dealt directly with the MD so it was easier to negotiate than going through HR & other managers.
I received a redundancy package & they hired somebody else with a different job title to do my job.

If you are serious about it, research what redundancy packages are normally given in your industry & have all your figures ready before you go to talk to them. Do not let yourself be sold short - if they really want you to leave they should pay the going rate. Be prepared for hard and unpleasant negotiations however if you get to leave with something then it is worth it in the end.

Mrs OBumble

livedadream wrote: »

If your manager told you that you are being managed out start recording everything and ask for official letters or all warnings, PIPs, performance reviews etc.

....

Get your ducks in a row and be ready to take a case if you are dismissed.

Agree with this bit.

livedadream wrote: »

Speak to the union and advise them that you have a fear you are being managed out and could they monitor if from their side.

Play stupid when it comes to HR and your manger etc, and wait for them to take action.

Don't agree with this. If you'd be happy to go with a package, then before speaking to the union, you need to suss out their attitude to this: some unions will do everything they can to save jobs, even if the workers need to go.

You may be better engaging a solicitor to advise you separately.

livedadream

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Agree with this bit.

Don't agree with this. If you'd be happy to go with a package, then before speaking to the union, you need to suss out their attitude to this: some unions will do everything they can to save jobs, even if the workers need to go.

You may be better engaging a solicitor to advise you separately.

what package? if he's being managed out its game over, you dont approach an employee you want to sack and offer them money to leave, you follow procedure and get rid of them.

they cant make him redundant if his role still needs to exist, yes there is smart HR and this can all be worked around but im guessing if his manager said sure someone had to get a bad review and you drew the short straw oh and your being managed out im guess his HR isnt the strongest.

LegacyUser

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Don't agree with this. If you'd be happy to go with a package, then before speaking to the union, you need to suss out their attitude to this: some unions will do everything they can to save jobs, even if the workers need to go.

You may be better engaging a solicitor to advise you separately.

I can't afford to go down the solicitor route. Also, this company do not play fair when it comes to former employees so it would end up being a long drawn out affair.

I am going to start documenting everything.
I have spoken to the union rep who has advised me of the appeals process.

Considering I have had consistent performance reviews previous to the pay dispute, I feel I have a strong enough position. There is no reason for the current poor review. Also, I am spot on in everything I do and have no negative feedback from customers about me and the vast majority of my colleagues have no issue with me with the exception of one manager.

I think I should start building a case now. If they give me a package to go, then I have no issue with that. But I won't be bullied out. If they want to do that, they can deal with the union.

Mrs OBumble

livedadream wrote: »

what package? if he's being managed out its game over, you dont approach an employee you want to sack and offer them money to leave, you follow procedure and get rid of them.

This one:

Whattodo2016 wrote: »

I know some people have gotten redundancy on the quiet recently.

You've learned a lot - but you have a lot to learn about actual practice instead of best practice.

The higher up the food-chain someone gets, the harder it is to "follow procedure and get rid of them", the more likely it is that some kind of cash-sweetener to leave quietly - and agree not to go legal, often in return for a reference - will be involved.

_Brian

One bad review is a long way from being managed out.

Have you been given a correction plan or pip "personal improvement plan". It's these follow up documents that really lead to managing someone out.

It could always be just forced distribution within the rating system and in a good year there can be very little between an employee being successful rather than low end reviews. And every year some people must get low end reviews often 10-15%

Why are you so happy to go now??

livedadream

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You've learned a lot - but you have a lot to learn about actual practice instead of best practice.

ive learned alot , gee thanks condescending and patronising older person.

i was only advising on best practice because thats what I do, it keeps my org out of the EAT/WRC. and ensure we have a great reputation across the board.
you will never see me advise anything other than best practice here because whats the point in saying to this guy :
''well yeah they properly dont have enough money to give everyone a good rating and as your manager said someone has to get the poor one''
its pointless and unhelpful.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The higher up the food-chain someone gets, the harder it is to "follow procedure and get rid of them", the more likely it is that some kind of cash-sweetener to leave quietly - and agree not to go legal, often in return for a reference - will be involved.

what you've just said is illegal in Ireland. giving someone you employ a cash payment in return for terminating their employment without cause (separate from redundancy or cessation of the business) is against the law. Its happening in the US at the moment and im guessing will hop over to the UK in a year or two but fire at will has been replaced by ''compromise agreements'',

(im happy to pass you on my CIPD access password so you can read up on some modern HR processes and newer employment law, a little education never hurt anyone Mrs Bumble.)

this isnt best practice and is leaving the org open to numerous issues with staff, ie: this guy wanting a pay off when he is trying to be sacked. Non uniform treatment of staff for disciplinary is one of the biggest employment law issues (after 0 hour/fixed term contacts) in Ireland at the moment.

nowhere does he say those people were being managed out.

no where does the OP say they are High up the food chain either, he has a manager, he has worked there for 9 years he could be stagnant in his role.

he said they got redundancy on the QT not they were getting sacked and were paid off its two very different things.

but thanks for the advise about learning, i make sure i bring it up in my next Performance review. asshole.

Mrs OBumble

livedadream wrote: »

(im happy to pass you on my CIPD access password ...

...

but thanks for the advise about learning, i make sure i bring it up in my next Performance review. asshole.

Thanks for such a great insight into the ethics and mindset of an HR professional.

I hope you're prepared for dealing with situations where your GM/CEO/whatever says "I don't care if it's illegal: get rid of him, do it on the quiet, make sure he won't take a case". Because you will meet them, and you will have to do it.

_Brian

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thanks for such a great insight into the ethics and mindset of an HR professional.

I hope you're prepared for dealing with situations where your GM/CEO/whatever says "I don't care if it's illegal: get rid of him, do it on the quiet, make sure he won't take a case". Because you will meet them, and you will have to do it.

Indeed, the old walk round the carpark and "manage him out and make it clean" pep talk.

Diziet

If you have not done it yet, consider opening a formal grievance about your review. Otherwise you have effectively accepted it.

livedadream

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thanks for such a great insight into the ethics and mindset of an HR professional.

I hope you're prepared for dealing with situations where your GM/CEO/whatever says "I don't care if it's illegal: get rid of him, do it on the quiet, make sure he won't take a case". Because you will meet them, and you will have to do it.

not engaging with you, you have an personal issue with me for some reason so im letting it go,

like i said my company doesnt do the whole i dont care if its illegal get rid of him, if we want someone gone they are managed out correctly.

most professional HR people accept that bad things happen but work within the C suite to ensure it is avoidable by giving options.

but is must be nice working for a company that dont care about the staff you employ, personally couldnt do it, or sleep at night if i was working for a company that unethical. but best of luck to anyone that does.

ive worked for those places, good staff dont last we move on fast.

BreadnBuddha

livedadream wrote: »

ive worked for those places, good staff dont last we move on fast.

Some people just don't fit with some workplace cultures. Saying good staff move on fast infers anyone who stays is not in that category, when in fact it just comes down to how well you meet the expectations of a particular employer/industry and how well that employer/industry meets your own.

Managing people out is a useful way to get rid of someone who's dragging their feet and just barely getting by, being disruptive generally, dragging morale down in a group of employees or many other reasons.

If the OP is 'happy to go at this stage' but thinks they should be offered a package, it starts to paint a picture. After 9 years in the job, it's easy to settle in and think your performance and work is beyond criticism. It's not, ever. Having recently looked for a better package and thereby drawn attention to themself and their co-workers for comparison, chances are somebody has seen enough to justify beginning corrective action.

You can't blame a dog if you kick it and it bites you.

KlausFlouride

Whattodo2016 wrote: »

Basically the reason given was that someone had to get it.

This company manage people out.

WTD

Sounds like the company is looking to offload headcount rather than anything the OP has done.

Misguided1

Whattodo2016 wrote: »

Hi All,

Today my manager effectively stated to me that I am going to be managed out.
To be honest, I'd be happy to go at this point but I do not intend to go without a package.
I know some people have gotten redundancy on the quiet recently.

WTD

What exactly did your manager say to you?

livedadream wrote: »

ive learned alot , gee thanks condescending and patronising older person.

what you've just said is illegal in Ireland. giving someone you employ a cash payment in return for terminating their employment without cause (separate from redundancy or cessation of the business) is against the law.

Mutual Separation agreements (also known as Termination/Compromise agreements) are regularly used and are not illegal if both parties are willing to enter into such agreements. They are pretty common practice.

skallywag

_Brian wrote: »

...

It could always be just forced distribution within the rating system and in a good year there can be very little between an employee being successful rather than low end reviews. And every year some people must get low end reviews often 10-15%

...

I've seen this in action first hand where I was forced to give 10-15% of my team at the time a 'Needs Improvement' rating, whereas it was impossible for me to genuinely do this as they were all good performers in that particular cycle. I had quite a heated discussion with my own supervisor on this and told him that I did not agree with marking people down just to fit to a curve, and while he agreed with me he was also getting the exact same nonsense from his own boss. It's a completely ridiculous policy. I begrudgingly went along with it that year, but an identical situation arose again some years later. This time I dug my heels in and flatly refused, I told my boss that if someone else wanted to change the rating in the system then they were free to do so, but that I was not willing to stand behind it.

I ended up getting a call a few days later from my bosses own boss, who went on to make the usual noises about curve fitting making sense in large corporations, etc. At the end of the call I made it clear to him that I myself was still not going to make this change, but that if someone else wished to do so then I could not influence it.

The matter went away and the team member in question did not get marked down unfairly, though I certainly did myself no favours.

KlausFlouride

That bell curve grading nonsense is just to keep bonuses within budgets, it's complete garbage.

livedadream

Misguided1 wrote: »

What exactly did your manager say to you?


Mutual Separation agreements (also known as Termination/Compromise agreements) are regularly used and are not illegal if both parties are willing to enter into such agreements. They are pretty common practice.

not currently legal in ireland under employment law.

BreadnBuddha

livedadream wrote: »

not currently legal in ireland under employment law.

What's the relevant legislation?

I can't find anything that states a voluntary severance agreement is illegal, except in the case where an employee is 'forced' to accept it and will then be re-hired with lesser pay and/or conditions, which is not the OP's idea of a 'package' anyway.

Misguided1

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

What's the relevant legislation?

I can't find anything that states a voluntary severance agreement is illegal, except in the case where an employee is 'forced' to accept it and will then be re-hired with lesser pay and/or conditions, which is not the OP's idea of a 'package' anyway.

You beat me to it! I must let our legal advisors know that the agreements they are producing are illegal

If both parties enter into the agreement amicably - it is perfectly legal.

Etc

Whattodo2016 wrote: »

Hi All,

I'm looking for a bit of advice.
Today I got my first bad review in 9 years with my company.
Basically the reason given was that someone had to get it.
I told my manager I absolutely disagree with it.

This company manage people out.
I have had a dispute with HR recently over my package in comparison to my immediate colleagues. I should have gone the union route but thought I could get it sorted.

Today my manager effectively stated to me that I am going to be managed out.
To be honest, I'd be happy to go at this point but I do not intend to go without a package.
I know some people have gotten redundancy on the quiet recently.

Has anyone any experience or advice on how to navigate this one?

Thanks,

WTD

Firstly, was there a legitimate reason for the poor review ? As apposed to you are on the wrong side of the bell curve ? Your manager seemed to be very open with you today. You need to respond with an e-mail or letter to your manager recounting your view of the meeting and the outcomes. Copy HR.

Ask for clarification in writing of the discussion. Request specific examples of why you have failed to meet your objectives.

This is really important. Did you agree a specific set of objectives for the year ? Was this a mid year review or end of year review ?

Do you know and understand the companies performance review policy and process ? Do you think you've breached it or met your objectives ?

Think about where the company could pick holes in your performance and have examples of where this is wrong or if it was true, why it happened and where you went above and beyond.

Copy the HR dept on all of your responses and while you're not in a union, you're entitled to have a representative present at future meetings.

Bring a strong, impartial character if you know one, or a union rep to any future discussions, don't go on your own.

"Managing Out" is a really good way for you to move on, because you can negotiate a good reference and potentially, if a package is available, maximise it.

People get intimidated about having the weight of a company, HR manager, manager coming down on them, don't.......

Usually the company is responding to a subjective view from a specific manager / person and this can be picked apart.

Good luck,

You can turn this to your advantage.

The Masculinist

1. Record everything.
2. Speak to a union official and ask for a consultation with an emloyment law expert.
3. Ask management what areas you need to improve in. Get this in writing. Make sure any objectives are SMART (specific, measurable, attainable, relevant and time orientated). Make sure these targets can be met.
4. Everything you do will be watched. From turning up 1 min late to going for a toilet break. Make sure you stick by all the rules in your contract and employee handbook. Give them no excuse.

If your employer does not give you the relevant coaching in areas you need "improvement" in, and does not give you enough time to "improve" your standards, then you have a case.

If you are let go, remember that any reward the EAT give will likely be based on loss of earnings. Hence, if you do get another job straight away, you may not have a loss of earnings and it would be a waste of time to pursue a case.

livedadream

Misguided1 wrote: »

You beat me to it! I must let our legal advisors know that the agreements they are producing are illegal

If both parties enter into the agreement amicably - it is perfectly legal.

if severance is agreed at a contract stage yes, however if its added in a ''go quietly way'' after an employee has had a poor review it is near impossible to defend it in the EAT or the current WRC.


the OP stated it was redundancy their colleagues were offered.

not a golden handshake.

BreadnBuddha

livedadream wrote: »

if severance is agreed at a contract stage yes, however if its added in a ''go quietly way'' after an employee has had a poor review it is near impossible to defend it in the EAT or the current WRC.


the OP stated it was redundancy their colleagues were offered.

not a golden handshake.

So, it's NOT illegal then. A voluntary severance agreement, should the OP be granted one, should be completely acceptable to the union also as the position is not lost.

LegacyUser

Etc wrote: »

Firstly, was there a legitimate reason for the poor review ? As apposed to you are on the wrong side of the bell curve ? Your manager seemed to be very open with you today. You need to respond with an e-mail or letter to your manager recounting your view of the meeting and the outcomes. Copy HR.

Ask for clarification in writing of the discussion. Request specific examples of why you have failed to meet your objectives.

This is really important. Did you agree a specific set of objectives for the year ? Was this a mid year review or end of year review ?

Do you know and understand the companies performance review policy and process ? Do you think you've breached it or met your objectives ?

Think about where the company could pick holes in your performance and have examples of where this is wrong or if it was true, why it happened and where you went above and beyond.

Copy the HR dept on all of your responses and while you're not in a union, you're entitled to have a representative present at future meetings.

Bring a strong, impartial character if you know one, or a union rep to any future discussions, don't go on your own.

"Managing Out" is a really good way for you to move on, because you can negotiate a good reference and potentially, if a package is available, maximise it.

People get intimidated about having the weight of a company, HR manager, manager coming down on them, don't.......

Usually the company is responding to a subjective view from a specific manager / person and this can be picked apart.

Good luck,

You can turn this to your advantage.

Thanks for the response.

To be honest, I don't want to put too many details here for anonymity reasons.

I am going to appeal the rating - it was end of year.
It has financial impact on my bonus. I received my objectives at year end and I didn't accept them as they were not aligned with my role.

There are no performance issues. I am spot on in everything I do. I work hard, always early, stay back late sometimes, no long lunches, unpaid overtime when needed, helpful, friendly, you name it.
My manager admitted that today.
He wants me to go the appeal route so he won't have to fight it out with management- that's how it looks anyway.

As I said originally, I'd be delighted to get a package and leave. But I don't think I am senior enough for that magical fairy tale ending to happen.

I don't like the stress that goes with this disagreement. I will fight my corner but I just want a quiet life - I think that was why he gave me the rating: he thought I'd take it lying down because he knew I had had enough of stress with the pay dispute.
The reason I am fighting it is purely that it is an incorrect rating - if I had underperformed relative to my role I would accept it but I was exceptionally good as well as being helpful with other teams and departments across the company.

livedadream

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

So, it's NOT illegal then. A voluntary severance agreement, should the OP be granted one, should be completely acceptable to the union also as the position is not lost.

only if its in his original contract which if he's in the org over 9 years is doubtful and he didnt mention it so im going to go with its not there therefore illegal and wouldnt be held up if he took it further.

Misguided1

livedadream wrote: »

only if its in his original contract which if he's in the org over 9 years is doubtful and he didnt mention it so im going to go with its not there therefore illegal and wouldnt be held up if he took it further.

If both parties wish to part company, and voluntarily enter into an agreement - to which they both agree, this is not illegal. If one party wishes to challenge some or all of that agreement at a later point - they can do so. That does not make it illegal. It makes it open to legal challenge.

Bandana boy

I have seen several agreed severance deals done , usually a lot less than redundancy is worth , but an agreed compromise for both sides.

As a rule they are instigated by the employee , maybe from an unofficial word to the employee from a colleague that rather than fight the PIP process the employer might be open to so a deal.

The claims about illegal is daft .

For somebody who's style and tone of posting is quite derogatory to opinions that do not match your's you really need to be more accurate.
You keep suggesting you work in HR , I am astounded that this could be true beyond entry level/graduate program if your tone is similar in work.

livedadream

Bandana boy wrote: »

I have seen several agreed severance deals done , usually a lot less than redundancy is worth , but an agreed compromise for both sides.

and i have seen several claims for payoffs being stuck out/lost by employers, after as employees feel they are pushed into it, its take the money or be terminated,then take a claim after.

this leaves employees in a place where they feel (or are made sign agreements saying they wont take action for unfair dismissal etc) they cant defend themselves.

Bandana boy wrote: »

As a rule they are instigated by the employee , maybe from an unofficial word to the employee from a colleague that rather than fight the PIP process the employer might be open to so a deal.

in your experience obviously. a nudge from a colleague (thats been suggested higher up) that you're being managed out might be better to ask for some cash and bugger off is totally unethical...
what you may be referring to is called Voluntary Severance (Voluntary severance payment is any payment in connection with a mutually agreed and voluntary departure from employment by an employee) its totally different to ****e im being sacked better ask them to pay me to make me go quietly.

Bandana boy wrote: »

The claims about illegal is daft

. the closest case law i can remember without actually looking is Healy x 2 against Bia Ganbreise Teoranta, that was a claim grounded from a settlement agreement though.

Bandana boy wrote: »

For somebody who's style and tone of posting is quite derogatory to opinions that do not match your's you really need to be more accurate. You keep suggesting you work in HR , I am astounded that this could be true beyond entry level/graduate program if your tone is similar in work.

I dont intend to come across as derogatory and its certainly not something that anyone i know would say about me. I do have an issue with have a go hero's who offer advise as fact and fundamentally have no idea what their talking about.

I have never suggested i work in HR, I has stated very clearly that I work in HR as a Specialist in employment law and training, and have for a long time, so no, no graduate programme here. I do run one though so if you wanted to get some work experience and a solid grounding in the HR function you're more than welcome to apply, its pretty competitive though.

if an employee is being managed out and offered a pay off this wont stand as i have previously stated in the WRC or before in the ETA.

Bandana boy

livedadream wrote: »

and i have seen several claims for payoffs being stuck out/lost by employers, after as employees feel they are pushed into it, its take the money or be terminated,then take a claim after.

no you haven't

livedadream wrote: »

I do have an issue with have a go hero's who offer advise as fact and fundamentally have no idea what their talking about.

In my opinion nobody more guilty of this on the forum than you.