Cycle Lanes in Phoenix Park

CramCycle

TheExile1878 wrote: »

Never going to happen, not when they routinely ride on pavements and pedestrianised areas. Knocked into again this morning off Dame Street.

You seem to get it worse than anyone. Are you sure you were not walking on the road?

TheExile1878

Going for "you're" were you ??

CramCycle

TheExile1878 wrote: »

Going for "you're" were you ??

Thank you for pointing that out, and glad you could translate it for anyone who may have not understood what I was asking.

So back to the question. Are you incredibly unlucky or are you standing on the roadway, or maybe your exaggerating what has happened ever so slightly?

Roadhawk

If its not illegal to walk in a cycle track then people are going to do it. Regardless of how inconvenient it is for a cyclist its going to happen.

poochiem

Cycled each way through the park yesterday, didn't know there was an event on but that explains the number using the cycle lanes. I got a couple of frights with kids wandering onto the lane in front of me while they're mammies were distracted so I moved onto the road - naturally I was almost doored ten seconds later only for letting an enormous roar.

Anyway, it's a place that'll be busy, make allowances and 'mind that child'!

ThisRegard

Knowing kids you should expect then to run in front of you if they're anywhere near the cycle lane. Rather than get a fright when they do so, be pleasantly surprised if they don't.

Bloggsie

as previously posted, the PP is not to bad in the mornings, in the evenings the park is much busier, I just use the road, keep 1 foot unclipped in case of emergency and move into the hard shoulder to allow cars pass when their is nothing parked in it.

Bloom starts this week so the park will be even busier!

2RockMountain

Roadhawk wrote: »

If its not illegal to walk in a cycle track then people are going to do it. Regardless of how inconvenient it is for a cyclist its going to happen.

Don't think legality or otherwise have much to do with it, tbh. People ignore all aspects of the law all the time, speed limits, red lights, phoning etc.

average_runner wrote: »

Its pretty impossible not to walk on the cycle lanes in the Phoenix park to get to your car, because some idiot put the cycle lanes in the wrong place. Its a nightmare park when trying to get kids out of the car and onto the correct walkway with people going way to fast on the cycle lanes in that environment.

People shouldn't be walking up and down the lanes but the cyclist need to slow down there also

It's pretty impossible not to cross the cycle lanes, but it is very, very possible not to walk on the lanes.

beauf

You can forget using them in the evening, completely when Bloom is on. Just go a different way.

Roadhawk

2RockMountain wrote: »

Don't think legality or otherwise have much to do with it, tbh. People ignore all aspects of the law all the time, speed limits, red lights, phoning etc.


It's pretty impossible not to cross the cycle lanes, but it is very, very possible not to walk on the lanes.

Well if its legal i presume people would be more inclined to do it. Im sure you are right that some pedestrians would still use the cycle track if it was legal or not but i suppose they are entitled to use it at the moment?

papu

Roadhawk wrote: »

Well if its legal i presume people would be more inclined to do it. Im sure you are right that some pedestrians would still use the cycle track if it was legal or not but i suppose they are entitled to use it at the moment?

The paths specifically have a no walking sign on them. So they are very much not entitled to use it.

Fireball XL5

The issue of entitlement or otherwise is not determined solely by the signs on the path. Any question relating to the position concerning the cycle paths depends on what is contained in the bye laws of the Park. Unfortunately all I can find on the web is an abbreviated version of the bye laws which makes no specific reference to the cycle paths. A copy of the bye laws are posted at the entrance to the Park. Might be worth a read the next time someone on this forum is passing.

papu

Fireball XL5 wrote: »

The issue of entitlement or otherwise is not determined solely by the signs on the path. Any question relating to the position concerning the cycle paths depends on what is contained in the bye laws of the Park. Unfortunately all I can find on the web is an abbreviated version of the bye laws which makes no specific reference to the cycle paths. A copy of the bye laws are posted at the entrance to the Park. Might be worth a read the next time someone on this forum is passing.

(7) No bicycle, tricycle, or other vehicle shall be ridden or driven at any time on or across any footpath in the Park.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1926/sro/6/made/en/print

(14) No person shall molest, annoy, or otherwise interfere with any other person using or enjoying the Park in a lawful manner.

So really the only place is the road or the designated bike path...

If you tried walking on a designated bike path in any other European city you'd be done for.

beauf

I never seen it enforced in any serious way in the park. Or anywhere in Dublin for that matter.

Fattes

papu wrote: »

(7) No bicycle, tricycle, or other vehicle shall be ridden or driven at any time on or across any footpath in the Park.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1926/sro/6/made/en/print

(14) No person shall molest, annoy, or otherwise interfere with any other person using or enjoying the Park in a lawful manner.

So really the only place is the road or the designated bike path...

If you tried walking on a designated bike path in any other European city you'd be done for.

How do you suggest people get to their cars? Genuine question, the location of the cycle path is a big issue.

cython

Fattes wrote: »

How do you suggest people get to their cars? Genuine question, the location of the cycle path is a big issue.

There is a significant difference between crossing a path with due care and attention for access, and travelling along it. For example, cars drive across footpaths to access driveways, etc. all the time. However driving along said path, or parking on it, is rightly illegal.

To be straight, I don't think anyone has suggested an issue with people crossing the cycle path (I'm not re-reading every post to confirm, mind!), but there is definitely a problem with people meandering along it and creating obstructions and hazards for cyclists. And I include cyclists travelling against the normal flow of traffic in that too (i.e. I would reasonably expect cyclists on each side to be travelling in the same direction as the traffic nearest them, in line with the orientation of the majority of the painted signs on the road - all of them excluding yields at roadways, AFAIK)

Bristolscale7

The paths in Phoenix park and multi-use paths in general (the Phoenix Park ones perhaps were not conceived as such) are not safe. Avoid them. Use the road.

Fattes

Cython, people will walk along them even for short distances, while returning to their cars on Chesterfield avenue, due to their location and the proximity to available parking in the park.

GasBrakeHonk

The lanes are poorly designed - thats a given. Rather then look at how we could restrict the movements of cyclists and pedestrians we need to look at how the park treats cars. If the purpose of the park is for leisure usage then the car should be accommodated but not prioritized. I do remember a proposal from the OPW to close the park to through traffic back in the late 90’s which was vigorously opposed by the local TDs. I don’t think that we need to go that far but we could

Make the speed limit in the park 20 kph for all traffic including bikes and strictly enforce it - including the use of average speed camera’s across the junctions.

Extend the hours where the main avenue to closed to traffic between Mountjoy / Phoenix roundabouts. Diverting the traffic via the North road.

Break out the tins of pain. Make the main avenue the bike lane that cars can “share” . Its common enough in Baltimore to see the bike lane markings on the center section of the road

It’ll never happen of course….

buffalo

GasBrakeHonk wrote: »

Make the speed limit in the park 20 kph for all traffic including bikes

How do you expect people on bikes to be able to tell when they're speeding?

magicbastarder

GasBrakeHonk wrote: »

Break out the tins of pain.

this sounds like a weak threat from a pro-wrestler.

beauf

GasBrakeHonk wrote: »

The lanes are poorly designed - thats a given. Rather then look at how we could restrict the movements of cyclists and pedestrians we need to look at how the park treats cars. If the purpose of the park is for leisure usage then the car should be accommodated but not prioritized. I do remember a proposal from the OPW to close the park to through traffic back in the late 90’s which was vigorously opposed by the local TDs. I don’t think that we need to go that far but we could

Make the speed limit in the park 20 kph for all traffic including bikes and strictly enforce it - including the use of average speed camera’s across the junctions.

Extend the hours where the main avenue to closed to traffic between Mountjoy / Phoenix roundabouts. Diverting the traffic via the North road.

Break out the tins of pain. Make the main avenue the bike lane that cars can “share” . Its common enough in Baltimore to see the bike lane markings on the center section of the road

It’ll never happen of course….

Your completely forgetting its a park. All levels of people use those cycle lanes very small kids, families on bikes etc.

Its a park, when its busy you won't be able to cycle freely, threes too many pedestrians. Use the side roads or the main road if you want to cycle fast.

GasBrakeHonk

buffalo wrote: »

How do you expect people on bikes to be able to tell when they're speeding?

Most people tip along at that sort of pace on the cycle lanes as it is. Anyone capable of going significantly faster is probably fully aware of the pace that their going at. So say 30 kph instead - the point is that for a shared road space 50 kph is too high.

GasBrakeHonk

beauf wrote: »

Your completely forgetting its a park. All levels of people use those cycle lanes very small kids, families on bikes etc.

Its a park, when its busy you won't be able to cycle freely, threes too many pedestrians. Use the side roads or the main road if you want to cycle fast.

I think that you've not understood my post. My suggestion is that we use the road and reduce the speed limit precisely because we have very small kids , families on bikes etc.

beauf

You want small kids to use the road? Why?

Fast cyclists can already use the road.

No point reducing the speed limit as they don't enforce any limits. I've never seen a speed check in the park.

GasBrakeHonk

beauf wrote: »

You want small kids to use the road? Why?

Fast cyclists can already use the road.

No point reducing the speed limit as they don't enforce any limits. I've never seen a speed check in the park.

At no point have I suggested that small kids use the road. Yes, fast cyclists can already use the road but again I have not made any reference to fast cyclists. The issue is the mixing of cyclists who are not "fast" but still fast enough to cause injury in a collision with a pedestrian. This is the majority of cyclists using the park. So how do we solve that problem ? My suggestion is that we reduce the speed limit to the median speed of those cyclists to create a shared space on the roads that all cyclists can use. Its about changing the mind set of drivers.

Tenzor07

The OPW could do a lot to improve Cycle facilities for all cyclists, commuters, tourists and leisure cyclists..
The current situation where we have people who have died using the cycle paths must be setting off alarm bells in some OPW manager's head?

Reduce speed by introducing traffic calming measure, lane narrowing, chicanes, and a GoSafe van placed around the park...North road from Ashtown gate down ordnance survey road can turn into a race track at times, would be a good place to park it.

Sweep the cycle paths! Around by the north road heading away from the GHQ is usually full of small stones.. or parked cars... also widen and segregate it in order to make it 2-way, coming down the other side the road surface is a disaster..

Fattes

GasBrakeHonk wrote: »

The lanes are poorly designed - thats a given. Rather then look at how we could restrict the movements of cyclists and pedestrians we need to look at how the park treats cars. If the purpose of the park is for leisure usage then the car should be accommodated but not prioritized. I do remember a proposal from the OPW to close the park to through traffic back in the late 90’s which was vigorously opposed by the local TDs. I don’t think that we need to go that far but we could

Sadly the park serves a pretty important role in minimizing traffic in both the city center and on the M50 by taking a certain volume of through traffic for areas Kilmainham, Inchicore,Cabra and castelnock. It would be great to see traffic, removed from it but the public transport infrastructure, and road network do not really allow for it right now.

ThisRegard

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The OPW could do a lot to improve Cycle facilities for all cyclists, commuters, tourists and leisure cyclists..
The current situation where we have people who have died using the cycle paths must be setting off alarm bells in some OPW manager's head?

Reduce speed by introducing traffic calming measure, lane narrowing, chicanes, and a GoSafe van placed around the park...North road from Ashtown gate down ordnance survey road can turn into a race track at times, would be a good place to park it.

Sweep the cycle paths! Around by the north road heading away from the GHQ is usually full of small stones.. or parked cars... also widen and segregate it in order to make it 2-way, coming down the other side the road surface is a disaster..

The last development plan I saw for the park, edit: here http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/Phoenix%20Park%20Conservation%20Management%20Plan%20Final%208%209%2011.pdf
touches on all of these. Page 69 mentions that cyclists are forced into conflict with heavy traffic, along with the reasons for there being such traffic.

Section 9, Access and Movement, and the actions at the end of that section, are worth a read. It covers a lot of the issues that have come up on this thread, such as enforcement of the road traffic laws in liaison with the Gardai, the plan to create a circular cycle and walking routes for families and young users of the park, increased bike parking etc.

beauf

GasBrakeHonk wrote: »

At no point have I suggested that small kids use the road. Yes, fast cyclists can already use the road but again I have not made any reference to fast cyclists. The issue is the mixing of cyclists who are not "fast" but still fast enough to cause injury in a collision with a pedestrian. This is the majority of cyclists using the park. So how do we solve that problem ? My suggestion is that we reduce the speed limit to the median speed of those cyclists to create a shared space on the roads that all cyclists can use. Its about changing the mind set of drivers.

None of what you say will work, because there is ZERO enforcement of any rules. Creating rules is pointless if they are not enforced. Like new speed limits.

Pedestrian and Cyclists and Drivers are using the paths without consideration of each other. Unless they are penalised for it. They will continue to be morons no matter which they are.

The only think that might work is better signage and a better physical design that influences human behaviour.

They have spent almost nothing on the infrastructure, for example the cycle lane at the parkgate end has been left unsurfaced for about 2yrs at this point. So many cyclist leave the cycle lane and use the road.

The impression is just neglect from the OPW at this point. Perhaps due to lack of funds. I don't think they are keen on any commuting traffic even cyclists. Perhaps I'm wrong.