Cycle Lanes in Phoenix Park

Fattes

beauf wrote: »

None of what you say will work, because there is ZERO enforcement of any rules. Creating rules is pointless if they are not enforced. Like new speed limits.

The impression is just neglect from the OPW at this point. Perhaps due to lack of funds. I don't think they are keen on any commuting traffic even cyclists. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Spot on with enforcement! I think a lot of people forget how old and historic the park is, a lot of its features are unique and authentic and the OPW tries to maintain them where possible.

GasBrakeHonk

beauf wrote: »

None of what you say will work, because there is ZERO enforcement of any rules. Creating rules is pointless if they are not enforced. Like new speed limits.

Pedestrian and Cyclists and Drivers are using the paths without consideration of each other. Unless they are penalised for it. They will continue to be morons no matter which they are.

The only think that might work is better signage and a better physical design that influences human behaviour.

They have spent almost nothing on the infrastructure, for example the cycle lane at the parkgate end has been left unsurfaced for about 2yrs at this point. So many cyclist leave the cycle lane and use the road.

The impression is just neglect from the OPW at this point. Perhaps due to lack of funds. I don't think they are keen on any commuting traffic even cyclists. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I pretty much agree with everything that you said above. Enforcement is absolutely necessary. Which is why I originally suggested average speed cameras. (See http://www.speedcamerasuk.com/specs.htm if you like that sort of thing).

As they roll out 30 kph zone's across Dublin they'll have to do something like this IMHO. Camera van's and Gardai rarely change peoples behavior for more than a couple of hundred metres.

Call me Al

The cycle lanes in the park aren't suitable for speeding bikes, even without pedestrians using them. The very nature of the park means there are a lot of sightseeing tourists sauntering along on two wheels.
Then you have pedestrians who get out of cars close to the zoo and see a low fence blocking them from the proper pedestrian path. My own toddler almost collided with a cyclist after he bolted across the path away from me (despite having been told not to move a muscle while I got his brother from the car, before anyone jumps to attack my parenting skills l).
Signage and layout is poor.
I think they should relay a new cycle path inside the barrier. Raise it so that it's less likely to flood and move it well away frotmwhat would then be a footpath. You will still have the issue with speedy commuters v daydreaming tourists, and pedestrians crossing to go and see the deer or run in towards the pitches etc but it's much less cross traffic.
If imagine something will change now though in light of the cyclist's death

Roadhawk

There is more than enough space in the park to have a good two way cycle lane on each side of the road (on the inside track away from pedestrians). It would make clear sense to have this raised as i believe many part of the current inside track floods at certain times of the year. I also agree that the speed of some cyclists coming through the park currently is crazy. Its not a place for high speed racers to be bombing through.

Carawaystick

Call me Al wrote: »

The cycle lanes in the park aren't suitable for speeding bikes, even without pedestrians using them. The very nature of the park means there are a lot of sightseeing tourists sauntering along on two wheels.
Then you have pedestrians who get out of cars close to the zoo and see a low fence blocking them from the proper pedestrian path. My own toddler almost collided with a cyclist after he bolted across the path away from me (despite having been told not to move a muscle while I got his brother from the car, before anyone jumps to attack my parenting skills l).
Signage and layout is poor.

The solution is to ban car parking on the north side of the chesterfield road here. From the Zoo up to where the rail fence ends.

The rail fence separating where people park and cross a cycle track to get to the footpath is never going to be taken down until it degrades in many years from now. People are going to see a path and block cyclists.

Roadhawk

Carawaystick wrote: »

The solution is to ban car parking on the north side of the chesterfield road here. From the Zoo up to where the rail fence ends.

The rail fence separating where people park and cross a cycle track to get to the footpath is never going to be taken down until it degrades in many years from now. People are going to see a path and block cyclists.

I cant see parking being removed from anywhere around the Zoo area unless they have an alternative. It would be pretty convenient for cyclists though.

Fireball XL5

An interesting debate. My own meagre two pence worth is to wonder if in the short term it might be better simply switch the cycle path and the footpath so that people existing their cars are not required to cross the cycle path.

Alternatively it would not seem to me impossible to keep the existing inside foot path for the "slow" cyclists, to ban all parking on the main road (and provide a decent perking space somewhere in the park) and restrict the existing hard shoulders to "serious" cyclists. I hate the terms "slow" and "serious" here and hope people know what I mean in the context of the discussion thus far.

My own experience of cycling in the park is that I am always happy to use the hard shoulder on the road - when it is available - but feel forced into the inadequate cycle path because of the cars parked in the hard shoulder. It seems to me that if parking in the hard shoulder was completely banned and alternative parking provided a lot of cyclists would be happier to use the main road.(?)

ThisRegard

Switching the lanes is unworkable really.

beauf

Most of the people parking are recreational park users. They will get priority.

I don't see why they cant switch the lanes for the summer anyway. I think they've done that temporarily in the past. Maybe I'm mistaken

CramCycle

What if they made the park unidirectional for motorised traffic depending on the time off day.

Reduce parking to one side only.
Make the traffic lane townward in the morning, and outbound in the evening.
Give over the other lane to a large two way cycle track and previous cycle track to pedestrians and slow moving cyclists eg children with parents.
The other option is to make the other lane public transport only (buses only) and the parking section for cyclists.

beauf

That would be chaos. Most can't even use a roundabout.

CramCycle

beauf wrote: »

That would be chaos. Most can't even use a roundabout.

Not sure why. Already lights at both ends for the switch over. ANPR for queue skippers. Only issue is turning across the bus and bike lane which would be minimal.

Solves the concern of increased traffic load, removes the pedestrian issue. Provides a great potential through way for PT. You cold even have two way PT with minimal changes.

Fattes

CramCycle wrote: »

Not sure why. Already lights at both ends for the switch over. ANPR for queue skippers. Only issue is turning across the bus and bike lane which would be minimal.

Solves the concern of increased traffic load, removes the pedestrian issue. Provides a great potential through way for PT. You cold even have two way PT with minimal changes.

The park will always have pedestirans and their numbers will sky rocket on sunny days, unless you ban pedestrians from the park :rolleyes:

beauf

They close a section of Chesterfield at weekends why not extend it and make it permanent. Lol.

ThisRegard

CramCycle wrote: »

What if they made the park unidirectional for motorised traffic depending on the time off day.

Reduce parking to one side only.
Make the traffic lane townward in the morning, and outbound in the evening.
Give over the other lane to a large two way cycle track and previous cycle track to pedestrians and slow moving cyclists eg children with parents.
The other option is to make the other lane public transport only (buses only) and the parking section for cyclists.

OPW don't want the park to be used as a commuter route so if they were to move anywhere on that direction they'd have the traffic outbound in the morning and vice versa in the evening to discourage its use.

And they definitely don't want it as a public transport route, I know I don't want to see parades of buses bisecting it.

I think the problem with the cycle lanes is exaggerated, they're really just an amenity for sauntering around on, the vast majority of people out for a spin have no issues with using the road.

CramCycle

Fattes wrote: »

The park will always have pedestirans and their numbers will sky rocket on sunny days, unless you ban pedestrians from the park :rolleyes:

I think you missed my point, they would not be on a cycle lane anymore as the cycle lane will be moved closer to the road. Maybe keep it as a shared space for slow moving cyclists eg kids with parents.

One main traffic lane that switches direction about half way through the day, after lunch maybe.

Removal of parking along the road, only in car parks, and priority given to blue badges and full cars. Maybe some car parks outside the park with free access to the park via PT or reduced rate fares into the park.

Red lane is private traffic, that is into the city from 7am until 2pm, closes until 3pm and then reopens to go outbound from 3pm until 10pm.

Blue lines are super wide lanes for public transport and bicycles. Green lines are pedestrian with accomodation for children and family members on bicycles.

If there is no want for huge investment, just either priority to the PT lanes at the roundabouts or if there is some cash, triggered lights to favour the PT lane.

CramCycle

ThisRegard wrote: »

I think the problem with the cycle lanes is exaggerated, they're really just an amenity for sauntering around on, the vast majority of people out for a spin have no issues with using the road.

I don't think there is a problem at all, only for those who want to make it a problem. I use the road all the time, rarely an issue. I also use the bike path, meet loads of pedestrians, never an issue. People who think that it is appropriate to belt along the cycle lanes in the park are deluded and need a slap in the face. People who can't see the issues with the layout and learn to accept that it is a de facto shared space should head in after a heavy fall of rain, bring kids with them (nieces, nephews etc., small ones so they can see the issues).

The park is used as a commuter route at the minute. restricting access helps this, cutting it off completely will be met with too much resistance. I am not talking about parades of buses. Just a priority route, There certainly would not be the want for alot of them initially and I would not be pushing for DB to put on empty bus routes.

Personally, my little sketch was more a solution to a problem that some people believe exist. I don't see it myself but I can see benefits to other issues if implemented, increasing PT use, making cycling more attractive etc. Reducing private traffic flow or at least making it more unattractive.

beauf

CramCycle wrote: »

I don't think there is a problem at all, only for those who want to make it a problem. I use the road all the time, rarely an issue. I also use the bike path, meet loads of pedestrians, never an issue. People who think that it is appropriate to belt along the cycle lanes in the park are deluded and need a slap in the face. People who can't see the issues with the layout and learn to accept that it is a de facto shared space should head in after a heavy fall of rain, bring kids with them (nieces, nephews etc., small ones so they can see the issues).

Couldn't agree more. I rarely have an issue in the park. But then I'm happy to ask people to move aside, I use a bell and use the grass, or road if needs be. Almost never have an issue.

CramCycle wrote: »

The park is used as a commuter route at the minute. restricting access helps this, cutting it off completely will be met with too much resistance. I am not talking about parades of buses. Just a priority route, There certainly would not be the want for alot of them initially and I would not be pushing for DB to put on empty bus routes.

Personally, my little sketch was more a solution to a problem that some people believe exist. I don't see it myself but I can see benefits to other issues if implemented, increasing PT use, making cycling more attractive etc. Reducing private traffic flow or at least making it more unattractive.

While I don't agree with your solution. I think they could do more to facilitate commuting cyclists which would take some of the traffic out of the park. Also direct some sort of shuttle bus to get people from one end of the park to the other. People can hop on to other modes of transport at parkgate street. Perhaps tied into the park and ride at Navan Rd train station. Things like that.

tomasrojo

https://twitter.com/michaelcogley/status/933289955698331648

Thinking of switching the cycle track and the footpath on Chesterfield Ave.

magicbastarder

i think i had this wrong before - would this be the second time they switched?
i have a very vague memory of this.

Chips Lovell

Yeah, me too. I seem to recall they were switched before.

irishrover99

If they do switch them around, the new cycle lanes would have to be resurfaced as they are in poor condition now.

magicbastarder

i guess the ones between the trees are more prone to being shifted by roots.

RobertFoster

Some parts are also prone to flooding. I wonder what they're like today

Annie get your Run

RobertFoster wrote: »

Some parts are also prone to flooding. I wonder what they're like today

I guess that means less for a cyclist then it does for a walker or runner though. I would kind of be in favour of the switch provided they did it properly i.e proper lighting & a complete resurace but I fear that won't happen and they will just switch them over. In which case I will use the road and to hell with the consequences....

They could just remove parking on one side of chesterfield ave completely and convert one of the hard shoulders into a two way cycle lane . Not much cost involved in that!

Weepsie

From the article "Many pedestrians end up walking in the lane by mistake".

I don't think this is the case for the majority. It's fairly clearly marked that it's a cycle lane and some people still do it.

MayoSalmon

Cycle lane is nice and smooth to walk on whereas the pedestrian path is small, bumpy and uneven and closer to the road. May not be the case all over but I am speaking about the section towards the vistor center

beauf

Weepsie wrote: »

From the article "Many pedestrians end up walking in the lane by mistake".

I don't think this is the case for the majority. It's fairly clearly marked that it's a cycle lane and some people still do it.

Some are just unaware others just don't care. But that has to be taken into account in smart design choices.

They should really move the parking in about 3m and leave dooring space then a marked lane on the road for high speed commuters.

Then make the inside path a slow cycle lane. Because some cyclists are going way too fast on the cycle path. One cyclist hitting another going flat out on a racing bike is going to happen

beauf

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Cycle lane is nice and smooth to walk on whereas the pedestrian path is small, bumpy and uneven and closer to the road. May not be the case all over but I am speaking about the section towards the vistor center

Its bad in a quite a few places both sides of the road. Sometimes you are directed to use it when big events are on.

beauf

Annie get your Run wrote: »

RobertFoster wrote: »

Some parts are also prone to flooding. I wonder what they're like today

I guess that means less for a cyclist then it does for a walker or runner though. I would kind of be in favour of the switch provided they did it properly i.e proper lighting & a complete resurace but I fear that won't happen and they will just switch them over. In which case I will use the road and to hell with the consequences....

They could just remove parking on one side of chesterfield ave completely and convert one of the hard shoulders into a two way cycle lane . Not much cost involved in that!

Without a resurface it won't work

Not a bad idea but they'll never do it...